What happens when states pass laws to make federal laws illegal?

[lupinus]

That was my point.

If it was a JBT training camp, it didn't go as they planned....

But completely typical for a government plan

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[Doggy Daddy]

Based on prior polling data (including some polls that I've run myself) around 75-90% of the current military and veterans (post 9/11) are more likely to either passively or actively resist any sort of tyrannical action U.S. soil, and after 11 years of war in two countries, that's a lot of accumulated knowledge an experience in both conventional and asymetrical warfare.

That sounds good, but is there any indication of what they consider "tyrannical action U.S. soil" to be?

[Fitz]

Gun confiscation, for starters.

Not the whole officer corps, but a whole lot of the NCO corps would resist, and I suspect they'd take a good chunk of their soldiers with em

[Blakenzy]

Yeah, kinda bass ackwards in that department. And not to put too fine a point on it, in the process of teaching our troops about IED's and how to counter them, they were necessarily also training them how to construct and employ them. The idea that it was all one big training exercise for the JBT's doesn't make much sense. Based on prior polling data (including some polls that I've run myself) around 75-90% of the current military and veterans (post 9/11) are more likely to either passively or actively resist any sort of tyrannical action U.S. soil, and after 11 years of war in two countries, that's a lot of accumulated knowledge an experience in both conventional and asymetrical warfare.

Yes, no one would want want to support an action openly labeled tyrannical, but how many will be aware at that moment that a given action is tyrannical? Tyrannical action will never be presented as such, never has been. There are many ways to present unconstitutional or otherwise oppressive actions so they seem justified, lawful, or just plain necessary to avoid a greater evil. Lord knows people are suckers for "the lesser of two evils". Particularly for an institution who's culture is entrenched in obeying and following top-down orders, where information is segregated and tiered, I don't have much faith that everyone is going to suddenly be in a frame of mind to start questioning and disobeying, let alone actively resisting their command if emergency orders start coming in.

Now if you tell me that entire units are constantly engaged in rebellious thinking and plotting against their command that would be different.

[kgbsquirrel]

As an example of one of the polls I ran it asked if they would execute orders for gun confiscation if a constitutional amendment was passed repealing the 2nd. 85% and respondents said they would not confiscate privately owned firearms under any circumstances.

[RocketMan]

I sure hope things have changed since I was in at the end of the Vietnam era.  In 1974 through about 1980, most of the Marines I served with would have quite willingly followed orders to confiscate private arms and march any recalcitrant folks off the camps.  The political ignorance in those days (mine included) was very pervasive.

[Fitz]

I think things have changed ...

We try not to create robots in BCT anymore ...

[zxcvbob]

I think things have changed ...

We try not to create robots in BCT anymore ...

When do they turn into robots now, at about O5 or O6?

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm not so confident in the military being on "our side".
Given the the way any "uprising" would be portrayed  by the media after a prolonged disinformation campaign any group could be conditioned to do what the command wants. Send a northeast NG or Reserve unit down to the deep south to deal with a problem. The first time one of the "band of brothers" takes fire or gets killed all bets are off.
One minor fire fight and it would be labeled as a full blown insurrecton and all bets are off.

[dogmush]

Larry, The thing is that deep south town (or NE if it's reversed) will have a NG unit of it's own. It's less of how many of the.mil will follow bad orders, but whether they'll be physically capable of following them. I would expect the active military to be split in about half and the part timers to almost universally side with their homes.

[kgbsquirrel]

When do they turn into robots now, at about O5 or O6?

When they arrive at Annapolis or West Point.  

Larry, The thing is that deep south town (or NE if it's reversed) will have a NG unit of it's own. It's less of how many of the.mil will follow bad orders, but whether they'll be physically capable of following them. I would expect the active military to be split in about half and the part timers to almost universally side with their homes.

Not to stray too close to the rules, but I've heard more than a few NG NCO's with keys to the armories state that they'd sooner start handing out hardware to the local citizenry than be complicit in such orders. (And no, this isn't a "my friend" type story, I'm not talking about myself here as I'm not NG.)

[AJ Dual]

I LOVE throwing these various "red state demographics" of the .mil, the oath, election polls of .mil members for the past 30-odd years etc. as yet one more point when debating an anti who tries the "you can't fight the modern US .mil with tanks and planes/drones" gambit to imply the 2A is "outdated" with me.

It really gets them thinking and shuts them up at the same time.

However, privately, while all this anecdotal evidence heartens me, The Milgram experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment gives me the dark feeling that we at least ought to cut any estimates of the .mil "on our side" in half, at least.

Given the right timing, and the right pressure, there's an Auschwitz prison guard in almost all of us somewhere. 

Which of course makes the 2A all the more important.

[cordex]

Larry, The thing is that deep south town (or NE if it's reversed) will have a NG unit of it's own. It's less of how many of the.mil will follow bad orders, but whether they'll be physically capable of following them. I would expect the active military to be split in about half and the part timers to almost universally side with their homes.

One of RKL's points was that the order wouldn't just come out of the blue.

Laws of this sort tend to be incremental, and the people who break the law first are more easily demonized.  As an example, we hear about the cops (or soldiers) who would never, ever come take people's guns, but those same men and women would likely not be so recalcitrant if ordered to seize unregistered machine guns and suppressors from a fringe group of lawbreakers.  There may be a few in law enforcement or the military who would ignore an illegal machine gun, but most would happily confiscate it and arrest the owner.

Paint a small enough subset of gun-owners in the right light and you can get someone to go after them no problem.  If the enforcer takes fire, the enforcer's buddies will come running and it ceases to be about taking guns and becomes about protecting your buddies and yourself.

I doubt the military would get involved in any early-stage confiscation anyway.  If many police started to get hurt then they might start sending in troops, but a bunch of cop-killers won't get sympathy from anyone.

[RoadKingLarry]

Paint a small enough subset of gun-owners in the right light and you can get someone to go after them no problem.  If the enforcer takes fire, the enforcer's buddies will come running and it ceases to be about taking guns and becomes about protecting your buddies and yourself.

Neo-nazis, skinheads, white supremacists, anti-American militias, extremist cults.
Enough bad press ahead of time to lay the ground work.
Waco & Ruby Ridge were both portrayed as evil entities threatening the whole of the country. It took years for the truth to come out..
 We've learned from those and similar actions but so have they.

[AJ Dual]

One of RKL's points was that the order wouldn't just come out of the blue.

Laws of this sort tend to be incremental, and the people who break the law first are more easily demonized.  As an example, we hear about the cops (or soldiers) who would never, ever come take people's guns, but those same men and women would likely not be so recalcitrant if ordered to seize unregistered machine guns and suppressors from a fringe group of lawbreakers.  There may be a few in law enforcement or the military who would ignore an illegal machine gun, but most would happily confiscate it and arrest the owner.

Paint a small enough subset of gun-owners in the right light and you can get someone to go after them no problem.  If the enforcer takes fire, the enforcer's buddies will come running and it ceases to be about taking guns and becomes about protecting your buddies and yourself.

I doubt the military would get involved in any early-stage confiscation anyway.  If many police started to get hurt then they might start sending in troops, but a bunch of cop-killers won't get sympathy from anyone.

Yep. This.