Author Topic: Boiler problem (Read 13005 times)

never_retreat · « **on:** January 18, 2013, 10:10:49 PM »

I installed an Weil Mclain ultra 155 High efficiency gas boiler in a friends house about 8 years ago.
The inside of this thing is looks like a cast aluminum engine block. Near the bottom there is an elbow the turns up for the exhaust. This thing has corroded completely through.
Does any of the hvac experts know if this is a common problem? It looks like the heat exchanger is a 1400.00 dollar part.
The warranty is 5 years of course, but I'm kind of concerned it failed in 8 years.
Here is a link to the part in question. Its elbow on the bottom right.
http://www.pexsupply.com/pex/control/product/~product_id=383-500-070

Jim147 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2013, 10:56:23 PM »

Boilers are far and few between in this area. I think 280 might know a thing or two about them.

jim

Ron · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2013, 11:30:22 PM »

Some considerations:

Manifold gas pressure not at spec.

Running boiler temp too low causing excessive condensation.

Incomplete combustion will leave some nasty byproducts behind that will accelerate the rotting out process. Proper venting, sufficient combustion air, gas pressure, power venting issues all could play a part.

Personally I would call and discuss it in a non-accusatory manner with the distributor and factory tech support and get their feedback and suggestions.

Weil Mclain is reputable and has been around awhile.

never_retreat · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2013, 11:48:52 PM »

Quote from: Ron on January 18, 2013, 11:30:22 PM

Some considerations:

Manifold gas pressure not at spec.

Running boiler temp too low causing excessive condensation.

Incomplete combustion will leave some nasty byproducts behind that will accelerate the rotting out process. Proper venting, sufficient combustion air, gas pressure, power venting issues all could play a part.

Personally I would call and discuss it in a non-accusatory manner with the distributor and factory tech support and get their feedback and suggestions.

Weil Mclain is reputable and has been around awhile.

I don't know what the gas pressure is. I will have to investigate how to measure that. Its propane by the way.
This thing has a computer board the size of a small laptop. So I think the temperature is pretty well controlled.
I'll have to check the power vent fan. Vent should be good it was all new PVC when we installed it.

Ron · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2013, 11:53:50 PM »

My background is mostly bigger stuff, not too up to speed on residential.

The principles are the same but the particulars can be particular

Doggy Daddy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2013, 01:06:40 AM »

http://www.pexsupply.com/pex/control/product/~product_id=383-500-070

Thank goodness for the magnifier option on the picture! That really helped clarify the issue.

geronimotwo · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2013, 01:45:33 PM »

weil mclein shows a 15 year warranty for the heat exchanger.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/warranty/warranty_ultra_res.pdf

is that the "elbow" where the condensate separates form the exhaust? if so, that is highly corrosive. if made out of aluminum it might be considered a man defect? check to see what they are made from now, or what they are coated with.

never_retreat · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2013, 05:53:37 PM »

Here is a picture of the hole. It has been patched with a high temp epoxy putty for now.
I will email this over to Weil Mclane to see what they have to say. It looked more like it was blown out rather than rotted through. It is not the lowest spot either. The thing on the bottom is the condensate line.
The only reason the house was not full of fumes is the air intake is about 3 inches above this. It was just sucking them back in. The chassis is kind of sealed with an exterior air intake.

geronimotwo · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2013, 10:16:55 AM »

funny, as a joke i was going to suggest jb weld.

let us know how long the repair lasts. at that location it shouldn't be terribly hot, so all it needs to do is seal in the gases(er, vacuum from the burner fan) and condensate. the burners likely wouldn't work properly if the induction is lost. if they won't honor the warranty, maybe an aluminum cover plate?

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2013, 01:18:38 PM »

The fact that the screw head on the clamp in the pic is completely corroded is pretty troubling. Is the environment where the unit installed in some area with other corrosive stuff? I'd expect the clamp parts to still be in decent shape.

Brad

never_retreat · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:11:23 PM »

Quote from: Brad Johnson on January 20, 2013, 01:18:38 PM

The fact that the screw head on the clamp in the pic is completely corroded is pretty troubling. Is the environment where the unit installed in some area with other corrosive stuff? I'd expect the clamp parts to still be in decent shape.

Brad

Its in a room in the basement with the water heaters, well tank, air handler and water softener. Nothing corrosive.
Brad I think it was dripping for a while. It just so happens the way they designed this thing the bottom of the chassis must be able to hold 3-4 gallons of water. I had to fill up before dripping on the floor.

280plus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:22:27 PM »

The pic isn't telling me much. A wider shot might help. My inclination is to believe it may have had a pinhole from casting that has been leaking since day 1 and over time the acidic condensate has been able to open the hole up to what you see now. Hence the corroded clamp screw head. I for one would be VERY interested in what WM says about this. One thing I know is those aluminum block styles are EXPECTED to corrode over time so they are made extra thick to compensate. This DOES seem quite premature to me but if you should find it's not I sure would like to know about it.

280plus · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:25:45 PM »

Not related but something to be aware of. http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/cpsc_weil_mclain_announces_recall_of_ultra_series_boilers.pdf

280plus · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:30:51 PM »

I'm not finding any reference to your problem on the net anywhere. Another thought is galvanic corrosion but I assume the unit is grounded and I think if it were galvanic action it would have opened up a lot quicker.
I've seen galvanic action eat through 3/16" stainless steel in about 6 months.

280plus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:55:59 PM »

Found this comment:

Quote

. I use the ULTRA with the 15 year P/R warranty on the HX and saves more than $3000, in fact if they do fail too soon, I will replace it with another one and still be under the cost of the V, by then techenology will have changed anyway

Not sure what "V" is. Viessmann probably.

280plus · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:57:32 PM »

And I believe P/R is "pro rated". So it sounds like there is a 15 year prorated warrantee on it. Still want to know what they say though.

never_retreat · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2013, 06:02:02 PM »

Quote from: 280plus on January 20, 2013, 03:22:27 PM

The pic isn't telling me much. A wider shot might help. My inclination is to believe it may have had a pinhole from casting that has been leaking since day 1 and over time the acidic condensate has been able to open the hole up to what you see now. Hence the corroded clamp screw head. I for one would be VERY interested in what WM says about this. One thing I know is those aluminum block styles are EXPECTED to corrode over time so they are made extra thick to compensate. This DOES seem quite premature to me but if you should find it's not I sure would like to know about it.

The pin hole might have been possible. Its not my house so I have not been looking under the hood.
Sorry I can't get a better picture, there is not much space int there for a camera. And there is a wall to the right about a foot away so the DSLR would not focus. I had to stick my blackberry in there to get that.

The warranty seems to indicate that the warranty starts to be prorated after 10 years. We are under that so I'm hoping they will make good on it.

The unit is grounded via the electrical wiring and the plumbing is all copper also.

280plus · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2013, 08:03:01 PM »

Cool. Please let me know what they say. A thought I had later was a crack might do the same thing.

never_retreat · « **Reply #18 on:** January 20, 2013, 08:33:19 PM »

Well I sent them an email, I was nice.
I have a feeling we will get jerked around.
The circuit board to a crap about 2 weeks after install. The woman says you need to call the installer, I said thats me, she says I though you were the homeowner, I said thats right also. Long silence. She could not grasp that We installed our own boiler.

Marnoot · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2013, 10:08:16 AM »

Quote from: never_retreat on January 20, 2013, 08:33:19 PM

She could not grasp that We installed our own boiler.

Lots of companies like that are that way. I built/installed my own water softener using professional parts. It quite difficult to find information I needed on much of the stuff (manuals and such were behind walls that required you to be a registered contractor with them, etc.).

I had been trying to decide between a Fleck brand softener controller and a Clack. Good thing I chose the former; Clack decided a year later that they would not sell product to anyone that would then re-sell to the "public," only contractors would be given the honor of purchasing their wares.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »

Quote from: never_retreat on January 20, 2013, 08:33:19 PM

Well I sent them an email, I was nice.
I have a feeling we will get jerked around.
The circuit board to a crap about 2 weeks after install. The woman says you need to call the installer, I said thats me, she says I though you were the homeowner, I said thats right also. Long silence. She could not grasp that We installed our own boiler.

You might be surprised.

My house, which was inherited from my mother, has hot water, oil fired heat and an external water heater that operates like a second heating zone on the system. Don't remember the name of the company that makes the water heater tank. "Heat-Trol" or something like that. I know it ends in "Trol."

A few years ago, the water heater tank gave up and started leaking through holes in the bottom. Local plumbing supply place carries that brand, but claimed that style is no longer available and a replacement would be a top-fed tank -- which would have required replumbing the entire water heater installation, because it's fed from the bottom. Started shopping, and found that Home Depot carries that brand, and had (in stock) what appeared to be the same unit.

So I bought it, installed it, direct replacement. Hooked everything up, threw the switch, and ... nothing happened. And, no matter how many times I re-read the instructions, they just didn't seem to fit what I was seeing on the control panel. So I called. The company is an American company, located somewhere in Rhode Island. The receptionist immediately put me on the line with an engineer. Not a "service representative" -- an actual engineer, who knew his product. I gave him the numbers off the tag on the unit, told him what I was seeing in the control panel, and he immediately diagnosed that Home Depot had pulled a switcheroo on me. I had a newer tank with an older control unit that didn't match the instructions, and could not possibly work the way it was configured. It also could not be made to work with what I had received from Home Depot.

Here's the good part: This was Home Depot's problem, not his. Nonetheless, at NO COST even for shipping he sent me all the parts needed to make it work, and detailed instructions on how to modify what I had to work with the new parts. It has been in place and working fine for several years.

I would hope that Weil-MacLain is a similarly old-line company that they might stand behind their products.

geronimotwo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2013, 06:53:09 PM »

Quote from: never_retreat on January 20, 2013, 06:02:02 PM

The warranty seems to indicate that the warranty starts to be prorated after 10 years. We are under that so I'm hoping they will make good on it.

don't forget your normal labor rate. it appears the warranty covers installation as well.

is there a reason that you claimed you were the homeowner?

never_retreat · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »

Quote from: geronimotwo on January 21, 2013, 06:53:09 PM

don't forget your normal labor rate. it appears the warranty covers installation as well.

is there a reason that you claimed you were the homeowner?

Because if I left my boss/friend/boiler owner handle this it would be a disaster.

He would screw it up so bad I might get a hot air oil fired unit instead.

No response after 1 business day. I guess it is kind of a holiday, but I worked today so thats all the matters.

seanpg · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2013, 11:03:38 AM »

I also have the same rot-through problem at the exhaust elbow on the Weil-Mclain Ultra 155 and the unit is also about 8 years old. I just sent an email to webmaster@weil-mclain.com. How was your isue resolved? Did your heat exhanger get replaced under warranty?

Doggy Daddy · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2013, 12:04:44 PM »

Quote from: seanpg on February 02, 2013, 11:03:38 AM

I also have the same rot-through problem at the exhaust elbow on the Weil-Mclain Ultra 155 and the unit is also about 8 years old. I just sent an email to webmaster@weil-mclain.com. How was your isue resolved? Did your heat exhanger get replaced under warranty?

Interesting.

Welcome to the asylum. I'm sure a search brought you here. I hope you find the place to your liking.

I know NOTHING about boilers.

News:

Author Topic: Boiler problem (Read 13005 times)