Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP

[Waitone]

Ron Paul's comments merely confirmed my belief that libertarians and radical leftists are uncomfortably close.  The inability to separate the warrior from the policy betrays a mindset that I find dangerous.  Paul has changed the national debate for the positive.  His comments here are uncalled for and unacceptable. 

The man screwed the pooch in my view.  He would have been better of keeping his tweet shut.

[erictank]

Ron Paul's comments merely confirmed my belief that libertarians and radical leftists are uncomfortably close.  The inability to separate the warrior from the policy betrays a mindset that I find dangerous.  Paul has changed the national debate for the positive.  His comments here are uncalled for and unacceptable. 

The man screwed the pooch in my view.  He would have been better of keeping his tweet shut.

The latter truth does not justify the statement at the beginning of your comment. Not seeing a whole lot of commonality between "radical leftists", who want to control your life from cradle to grave for the good and enrichment of the State (and themselves, of course), and libertarians, who want to... leave you the hell alone to live your own life and have the same courtesy extended to themselves.

Paul decided to nosh on both his shoes at the same time with that tweet. I *SUSPECT* it had some basis in his objection to US involvement in the War On Terra, but do not know this for a fact.

Fitz raises a really good point. The shooter apparently had a history of SERIOUS mental issues. Why on Earth would an experienced veteran think it was a good idea to take such an individual to a range?

And, it looks as though someone pointed out to RP that he REALLY ought to clarify what he said - so he did: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/02/ron-paul-clarifies-by-the-sword-tweet-on-snipers-death/ Doesn't make up for his attack of foot-in-mouth disease, but explains it a little better, IMO.

[RaspberrySurprise]

Honestly just seems like he jammed the foot farther in.

[Jamisjockey]

I'm probably gonna catch some hell for this.


Ron Paul's comment was awful, but not entirely false.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/former-sniper-chris-kyle-tried-to-help-troubled-marine-accused-in-his-death.html?_r=0


Taking this dude to a range to unwind was probably an awful decision.

Truth is truth. I, for one, am tired of Teleprompted platitudes.

Lengthy unjust wars have broken some of the finest young men and women our country has to offer. 
Taking one of them to the gun range for therapy?

[AJ Dual]

It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.

[seeker_two]

It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.

This.....sometimes, you just don't know....

[De Selby]

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/ron-paul-on-sniper-chris-kyle-live-by-the-sword-die-by-the-sword/2013/02/05/e7c06c1e-6fdd-11e2-ac36-3d8d9dcaa2e2_blog.html

Ron Paul spoke again - a lot more conciliatory the second time

[Fitz]

It's not clear to me that he was aware just how troubled the guy was, or his prior mental health records or police contacts.

Are we reading the same articles?

[Balog]

Are we reading the same articles?

Mr. Kyle’s friends said he did not know Mr. Routh well — Mr. Kyle became lost trying to find the house, and had to ask a neighbor for directions — but he knew Mr. Routh’s mother, Jodi Routh, who had recently asked for help for her son, a former Marine who spent 15 days in a nearby jail last year after a drunken-driving arrest, and who the authorities said had a history of mental illness.

Family friend calls and says "My son is having trouble post war, just got a DUI, and needs help" without mentioning any mental health issues. Seems a perfectly plausible explanation for Kyle's conduct.


Also appears the guy may have killed them in order to steal the truck. So not "deranged vet flips out" but "thief murders people trying to help him."

[Fitz]

Shortly before his arrest, Mr. Routh told his sister and brother-in-law that he had killed the two men and “traded his soul for a new truck,” according to an arrest affidavit.

The shootings unfolded five months after the Lancaster police responded to the Routh residence in September. At that time, Mr. Routh threatened to kill himself and his family, according to a police report of the episode.

Talk of trading one's soul for a truck, as well as the previous encounter, suggest this was more than just a thief.

Kyle made a point to go around helping veterans with mental health issues. I find it difficult to believe he was not aware of this vet's health issues. And, if so, before taking a troubled vet to the range, it's probably a good idea to find out about things such as, I dunno, an encounter with the police stemming from a threat to kill your whole family.

A normal person, vet, whatever, doesn't go to a shooting range then just blast someone in the head and steal their truck.

[Jamisjockey]

Yeah I still don't see it.  While insensitive, I don't think RP's remarks were that far off base.

It was not unusual for Mr. Kyle, 38, to spend time counseling troubled veterans

 

Kyle was engaging in a noble cause.  But you can't tell me that some of these kids had seriously bad demons and he didn't recognize that fact. 

[Gewehr98]

Why are they calling him a "Former SEAL" on the news?

Didn't he retire from the Navy?  I always thought "former" meant separated prior to the minimum 20 years.

Odd.   

[Fitz]

Why are they calling him a "Former SEAL" on the news?

Didn't he retire from the Navy?  I always thought "former" meant separated prior to the minimum 20 years.

Odd.   

I've always used former meaning "not anymore, regardless of how he left"

[AJ Dual]

Are we reading the same articles?

I think so... 

I've read many articles detailing Routh's police and psychiatric contacts, and his family's worries about him. However, I don't think I've read anywhere Kyle had been made directly aware of everything.

Balog's quote is an example. Listing Kyle and Routh's record in the same sentence doesn't mean Kyle was aware etc. Or it was non violent offences like the DUI and got a glossed-over version of Routh's records or "problems".

[Fitz]

I think so...  

I've read many articles detailing Routh's police and psychiatric contacts, and his family's worries about him. However, I don't think I've read anywhere Kyle had been made directly aware of everything.

Balog's quote is an example. Listing Kyle and Routh's record in the same sentence doesn't mean Kyle was aware etc. Or it was non violent offences like the DUI and got a glossed-over version of Routh's records or "problems".

That, to me, is even worse. He took a stranger who had just spent some time in jail for a DUI to a range without learning anything about him.

Either way, it's not a smart decision. It's irresponsible. It's unfortunate that he paid for it with his life.

[Balog]

How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not goto the range with me?

[Fitz]

How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not goto the range with me?

Not without at least finding out a bit about you. Had I not known you through this forum, absolutely not. Seems like if you recently had incidents like this kid did, it wouldn't take long to find out about...

When I meet vets, I don't hand em my handgun, do I?

Being a vet doesn't automatically make me trust you. And again, this dude spent time in jail on a DUI, had the aforementioned "kill my family" incident... even the most cursory of inquiries about who this guy was would have revealed that.

And again, given Kyle's mission, I maintain that he probably knew. And if he didn't, having knowledge of PTSD and what it can do/how it can manifest, if he didn't do any kind of cursory inquiry into the dude, then that was a big, big bad decision.

[Balog]

What type of inquiry? Talking with the guy? He seems normal. Asking his family? They don't divulge. Google the name, you get the DUI record. Now what?

I don't think there was a reasonable expectation that he should have seen this coming. "OMG he's had a DUI and some anger issues? Obviously the logical assumption is that he'll murder me the first chance he gets." 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

what are the criteria for determining folks are safe?  if you chose to help troubled folk you better know your butt will incur some risk. it is part of the problem.  troubled folks become "untouchables" and that means they are screwed permanent.
thankfully there are folks who are willing to take a chance.   i drew the line at i stopped bringing strays home to live when kid was 4.  i only make rare exceptions

[Fitz]

What type of inquiry? Talking with the guy? He seems normal. Asking his family? They don't divulge. Google the name, you get the DUI record. Now what?

I don't think there was a reasonable expectation that he should have seen this coming. "OMG he's had a DUI and some anger issues? Obviously the logical assumption is that he'll murder me the first chance he gets." 

I didn't say that, did I? Roll your eyes all you want. It totally makes your viewpoint more valid.

[Fitz]

what are the criteria for determining folks are safe?  if you chose to help troubled folk you better know your butt will incur some risk. it is part of the problem.  troubled folks become "untouchables" and that means they are screwed permanent.
thankfully there are folks who are willing to take a chance.   i drew the line at i stopped bringing strays home to live when kid was 4.  i only make rare exceptions

One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.

[Balog]

I didn't say that, did I? Roll your eyes all you want. It totally makes your viewpoint more valid.

You're blaming the victim of a murder for not being prescient. Eye rolling is a mild and polite response.

One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.

Which he should have divined via psychic powers.

[Fitz]

You're blaming the victim of a murder for not being prescient. Eye rolling is a mild and polite response.

Which he should have divined via psychic powers.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that it's not wise to take a disturbed individual to a shooting range.

I'm also saying that it's highly unlikely he didn't know this, as this was the WHOLE POINT of what he had been up to.

[Balog]

The vast majority of all combat vets (and rape survivors too for that matter) are "disturbed" so you'll probably need to narrow that down a bit.

In his shoes what would you specifically have done to reassure yourself that this individual was safe to take to a range? Do you think it would have prevented this? Do you think that everyone who commits a violent crime has shown adequite warnings signs of it beforehand?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

One of the criteria, i'd say, is not having made any recent threats to kill your entire family that ended in a visit from the police with you shirtless in the front yard blathering on about your troubles.

i'd have to see if it was a credible threat or drunk talking from butt.

helping some folks is darn inconvenient and its not for everybody.   i actually relied on god for a great deal of my protection. i got all the crazy ones.  if i didn't have kids i still would. i won't expose them . beyond a point anyway.  dealing with crazy vets means pray harder. and oddly you pray for them . if they get what help they need it automatically protects you.  it can be more exciting than vegas. and can be tragic as well.  very very rarely it can be rewarding but those times are real special and make the other stuff worth it.


as far as i know this guy was all talk till this event