Author Topic: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP  (Read 10981 times)

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2013, 04:48:32 PM »
The vast majority of all combat vets (and rape survivors too for that matter) are "disturbed" so you'll probably need to narrow that down a bit.

In his shoes what would you specifically have done to reassure yourself that this individual was safe to take to a range? Do you think it would have prevented this? Do you think that everyone who commits a violent crime has shown adequite warnings signs of it beforehand?

I dunno. If i can't even find his house and know nothing about him, maybe i'd want to, i dunno, spend some TIME with him first before just going to  a range and handing him a weapon?

"Hey, you're *expletive deleted*ed up from getting shot at by brown people. Let's go to the range!"

Range therapy is perfectly awesome for some vets with PTSD. For some, as you can see, it's tragic. I'd say it's a great idea to get to know someone first before you jump headfirst into their "treatment"

I know vets who have violent, violent reactions to certain sounds and combinations of sounds. I would not know this after having just met them.

As to your last statement, it has nothing to do with the discussion, but no. I don't think every violent criminal shows warning signs.

The assbag involved had most assuredly shown adequate warning signs.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2013, 04:49:42 PM »

i'd have to see if it was a credible threat or drunk talking from butt.

helping some folks is darn inconvenient and its not for everybody.   i actually relied on god for a great deal of my protection. i got all the crazy ones.  if i didn't have kids i still would. i won't expose them . beyond a point anyway.  dealing with crazy vets means pray harder. and oddly you pray for them . if they get what help they need it automatically protects you.  it can be more exciting than vegas. and can be tragic as well.  very very rarely it can be rewarding but those times are real special and make the other stuff worth it.


as far as i know this guy was all talk till this event

When guys are all talk, and you don't know literally ANYTHING about them, it's dumb to hand them a weapon.

Maybe he was all talk when he threatened his family.

It's still a bad idea to hand someone a weapon who makes such threats, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 04:54:43 PM by Fitz »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2013, 05:12:08 PM »
When guys are all talk, and you don't know literally ANYTHING about them, it's dumb to hand them a weapon.

Maybe he was all talk when he threatened his family.

It's still a bad idea to hand someone a weapon who makes such threats, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE PERSON.

maybe  but i wasn't there.  i have a hard time making those calls when i am there.   its a real crap shoot. this guy fooled two guys
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2013, 05:14:05 PM »
maybe  but i wasn't there.  i have a hard time making those calls when i am there.   its a real crap shoot. this guy fooled two guys

That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?
Fitz

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Balog

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2013, 06:04:53 PM »
So you'd go to his house? Conduct detailed interviews with his family? How many hours would you feel like you need to spend before you'd be comfortable?

Quote from: French G.
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De Selby

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »
Sometimes, I think our sensitivity about gun restrictions can get in the way of common sense.  That's my take on this - believing in few government restrictions doesn't mean you have to operate the same way as a person.

It's common sense to think twice about taking people with mental issues shooting, especially if you don't know each other.  

It's also plain smart to do as Fitz says here - "gee, all I know about this guy is that he knows how to shoot and is mentally disturbed in some way.  Maybe I ought not to hand him a gun until I know more."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2013, 06:12:40 PM »
That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?

how well did they know him exactly?  its a bit unclear to me.  wasn't the other dead guy his neighbor?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2013, 06:19:43 PM »
So you'd go to his house? Conduct detailed interviews with his family? How many hours would you feel like you need to spend before you'd be comfortable?

Ok

Snark is getting too thick, now. Im done with you.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2013, 06:20:30 PM »
how well did they know him exactly?  its a bit unclear to me.  wasn't the other dead guy his neighbor?

The article mentions Kyle having a tough time finding the guys house, and says he didn't know the guy, but had spoken to his mother
Fitz

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 06:48:57 PM »
That's my point. He fooled two guys who didn't know anything about him. Maybe, when "helping" vets with their mental issues, we should get to know them a bit before deciding how to help them blow off steam?


Just guessing here, but maybe he felt if the guy was a fellow service member, that was good enough to establish a bond of trust. Apparently, it was not enough.
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Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2013, 07:02:06 PM »

Just guessing here, but maybe he felt if the guy was a fellow service member, that was good enough to establish a bond of trust. Apparently, it was not enough.

Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.

That goes for most of humanity.
Fitz

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2013, 07:18:36 PM »
Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.

That goes for most of humanity.


I know, but I would imagine sometimes people put too much stock in the whole fraternal thing.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2013, 07:29:10 PM »
Don't know about you, but not all service members I've met are worthy of trust.

That goes for most of humanity.

yup  you see it with 12 step groups and churches.  hes one of us so hes ok.   there are predators who capitalize on it.

and folks WANT to believe so they set themselves up
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2013, 07:38:55 PM »
they did a real nasty piece on kyle on prison planet/info wars
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2013, 07:51:56 PM »
Don't get me wrong

I think Kyle was a fantastic person, and admire him greatly

Infowars can go to hell
Fitz

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2013, 07:54:44 PM »
yea i didn't post link on purpose. i thought my opinion of crazy al couldn't get any lower.  i was wrong

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2013, 09:41:25 PM »
Quote
How thorough of a background check do you do on someone before going to the range with them? I'm a vet who's dealt with ptsd, would you not go to the range with me?

After reading your Guns For Sale ad and knowing that Guido the Killer Pimp is hot on your trail?

Hell no.  :O

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Balog

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 11:43:32 AM »
Ok

Snark is getting too thick, now. Im done with you.

If you're going to blame a murder victim for not preventing the crime that killed them, seems fair to ask what you'd have done differently in their place. And "something more that would have prevented it" doesn't count.

After reading your Guns For Sale ad and knowing that Guido the Killer Pimp is hot on your trail?

Hell no.  :O



Wisconsin is too damn cold to go shooting anyway.  :P
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 11:46:27 AM »
If you're going to blame a murder victim for not preventing the crime that killed them, seems fair to ask what you'd have done differently in their place. And "something more that would have prevented it" doesn't count.

Wisconsin is too damn cold to go shooting anyway.  :P

I mentioned getting to know someone with PTSD before you hand them a gun. You started talking about background checks and whatnot. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in being a smartass.
Fitz

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Balog

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2013, 01:27:29 PM »
I mentioned getting to know someone with PTSD before you hand them a gun. You started talking about background checks and whatnot. You're not interested in having a discussion, you're interested in being a smartass.


Big assumption there. I'm interested in forcing you to think through your statements beyond "Well he should have done something!" Most folks are murdered by people they know. The majority of rapes and child molestations happen by close friends and relatives of the victims. I'm merely pointing out that "getting to know someone" probably wouldn't have prevented this, and asking what you think you would do differently and if you honestly think that would have changed things.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2013, 02:25:41 PM »
Big assumption there. I'm interested in forcing you to think through your statements beyond "Well he should have done something!" Most folks are murdered by people they know. The majority of rapes and child molestations happen by close friends and relatives of the victims. I'm merely pointing out that "getting to know someone" probably wouldn't have prevented this, and asking what you think you would do differently and if you honestly think that would have changed things.

I didn't say "Well, he should have done SOMETHING." I also never said that "getting to know" the guy would have stopped his violence. It may have, however, made Kyle decide not to hand the guy a loaded weapon.

I said taking a mentally disturbed person with a history of threats to a shooting range to unwind is unwise.

I stand by that statement, and I have thought it through.

Your opinion seems to be that he didn't know the guy had made threats on his family.

I think he did. Even if he didn't, it's something that's tough to keep under wraps. If he had even a modicum of familiarity with the shooter, he would have found out about the incident. Stuff like that tends to not stay secret very long.

He then may have chosen a different activity to help his new friend.

What would I have done differently? Not assumed that just because someone was a vet that he was strong enough to avoid going on a rampage because of his mental issues.

Someone being a vet does not automatically make me trust them. I don't make it a habit of going on shooting outings with strangers.

"Most people are murdered by people they know"

How is that relevant at all to the discussion? Do most people take someone they know, who recently had an encounter with the cops after threatening to kill their entire family, and hand them a loaded weapon?

You're not seeming to understand what I'm saying, and that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

My central point is, and has been, that taking someone with a recent history of mental instability to a shooting range is a terrible idea. Honestly, I'm not even sure how that point can possibly be debated.

If kyle had instead met this guy, taken him somewhere, and given him a bottle of antidepressants at random, and the dude later committed suicide because it was the wrong treatment, would you still feel the same way about Kyle's actions? After all, kyle's (and others, such as the wounded warrior programs) shooting trips were meant as a form of therapy for these soldiers.

When you try to help someone with mental issues, it's important to try to gain an understanding of what that person's issues are. Either kyle was unaware of the violent threats, or he knew about them. Which either means he was trying to "help" a distressed vet without knowing what the problem was, or he knew and took the guy to a range. Either way, it was a bad call.

This is not blaming him for his own death, nor is it me saying Kyle was a bad guy. It's me saying he made a mistake.

Kyle was a stand up person, an excellent warrior. He made a bad decision. Those two facts are not related. One can admire another person and recognize when they do something unwise.

You have mentioned a few times on here that when people are remembering their service fondly, they're looking through rose-colored glasses. I submit that you're doing the same in this case.
Fitz

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Blakenzy

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2013, 02:27:02 PM »
they did a real nasty piece on kyle on prison planet/info wars

Those quotes from his book do make it look like he may have been a less than high-minded character to say the least. Could have been taken out of context, haven't read the autobiography in it's entirety. Could have just been 'embellished for effect' writing by the ghostwriter.

Considering his experiences I wonder if a sense of invincibility slipped him into the situation that ended him.


"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2013, 02:33:01 PM »
Those quotes from his book do make it look like he may have been a less than high-minded character to say the least. Could have been taken out of context, haven't read the autobiography in it's entirety. Could have just been 'embellished for effect' writing by the ghostwriter.

Considering his experiences I wonder if a sense of invincibility slipped him into the situation that ended him.




The comments over on prison planet are disgusting.

People talking about his death as "justice" for the "lives he destroyed."

I've not read the book, but I have read excerpts. He talked with some regret about killing a woman through the scope of his weapon, because she was attempting to detonate a device near troops. Killing one to save more, seems noble to me.
Fitz

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Balog

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2013, 02:36:20 PM »
Rose colored glasses? LOL!!!

I don't have any emotional attachment to the guy, and I'd be saying the same things if he was some accountant who'd never served a day in his life.

You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't justified in an attempt to cast blame for this on the victim. "Dude murders other dudes to steal their truck" is just as likely as "Troubled vet goes on a murderous rampage after flashback."
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Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Fitz

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Re: Chris Kyle "American Sniper" RIP
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2013, 02:38:34 PM »
Rose colored glasses? LOL!!!

I don't have any emotional attachment to the guy, and I'd be saying the same things if he was some accountant who'd never served a day in his life.

You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't justified in an attempt to cast blame for this on the victim. "Dude murders other dudes to steal their truck" is just as likely as "Troubled vet goes on a murderous rampage after flashback."

Are you in the habit of giving weapons to people you don't know?

At the very least, maybe if he hadn't taken this dude to the range, the dude may have shot someone else and stolen their truck.

It's about mitigating risk. That, in my mind, includes not giving loaded weapons to people I don't know.

Sure, someone i know COULD murder me. But that's not what happened in this case, is it?

Do you or do you not disagree with the following statements. Independantly.

1.) it's unwise to take people you don't know at all to a range and hand them a weapon.
2.) It's unwise to take people with mental issues and/or a recent threat of violence to a shooting range and hand them a weapon.

I'll also put this out here again, since you didn't seem to read my post. Here's a quote...

Quote
This is not blaming him for his own death, nor is it me saying Kyle was a bad guy. It's me saying he made a mistake.

You've addressed the last sentence of my post, and ignored the rest.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:41:38 PM by Fitz »
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
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You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

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