Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal

[CuriousAbootGuns]

I also believe that the absolute majority of those in power who fight for gun control are outright evil and sociopathic. Evil, because ultimately, it isn't about guns, it's about control, and they sure love to control things.

Plenty of people want control but certainly that doesn't make them evil. We want our kids to be safe from perverts so we try to control which adults interact with them. That is controlling OUR kids, what aboot controlling other peoples behavior? Is it evil to limit the behavior of sex offenders by preventing them from being around schools or children's activities? No. It's sensible. I'm not saying all control is sensible, but am just making a point that we should be careful throwing a word like evil around.

[Nick1911]

Here's an interesting question I'd like to pose:

I think history has shown that against civilian targets, explosives are one of the most devastating kind of attack.

Yet, anyone can enroll in the local community college's chemistry courses.  Trinitrotoluene [TNT] can be manufactured from reagents available cash and carry at any Home Depot in the country.  TATP can be made from reagents freely available at CVS and Walgreens.  The reactions and laboratory procedures are available to anyone who cares to look them up.

Does this need to change?  Why or why not?

The public policy debate right now is asking if the tools that one could use to commit crimes should be made illegal.

How about my F250 pickup?  It weighs 4300lbs.  If it were driven through a crowded parade at speed, many innocent people would be hurt or killed.  

I bought a new chef's knife from walmart last month.  Man, that thing is sharp.  Under 30 bucks, cash and carry.  Problem?

Should I have to pass a background check to purchase a Ford pickup?  What about concrete cleaner and specialty paint thinner?  What about firearms?  Where do you draw the line?  Why?

[CuriousAbootGuns]

Here's an interesting question I'd like to pose:

I think history has shown that against civilian targets, explosives are one of the most devastating kind of attack.

Yet, anyone can enroll in the local community college's chemistry courses.  Trinitrotoluene [TNT] can be manufactured from reagents available cash and carry at any Home Depot in the country.  TATP can be made from reagents freely available at CVS and Walgreens.  The reactions and laboratory procedures are available to anyone who cares to look them up.

Does this need to change?  Why or why not?

The public policy debate right now is asking if the tools that one could use to commit crimes should be made illegal.

How about my F250 pickup?  It weighs 4300lbs.  If it were driven through a crowded parade at speed, many innocent people would be hurt or killed.  

I bought a new chef's knife from walmart last month.  Man, that thing is sharp.  Under 30 bucks, cash and carry.  Problem?

Should I have to pass a background check to purchase a Ford pickup?  What about concrete cleaner and specialty paint thinner?  What about firearms?  Where do you draw the line?  Why?

Buying large amounts of chemicals used in explosives IS regulated...does it stop all acts of terror, of course not, and the deadliest chemicals are heavily restricted.

You do have to demonstrate some basic competence to drive your pickup, you had to get a license. You probably didn't complain much about that did you? But if we said you had to pass a mandatory test in ALL states to purchase a firearm you probably would.

Knives...anything can be used as a weapon, but the idea that regulation can't stop every act of violence is not a reason not to try to reduce them. That's why we restrict access to vehicles, the sale of power tools, potentially explosive reagents, none of these restrictions stop all crimes but they can make it more difficult to carry them out.

[Fjolnirsson]

Just to get your personal view, do you think anyone (including convicted violent criminals and the criminally insane) should be allowed to purchase firearms?

Do you think we should have ZERO restrictions on weapons purchases? In other words, if I had the means, would you be ok with me having ICBMs in my backyard and a metric ton of c4 in my garage?

Would your answer change if I were your neighbor? What if I were your neighbor and you knew that I heard voices in my head that told me to do things?

Convicted criminals and the criminally insane DO purchase guns, and none of the laws we have stop them. As for c4 and ICBMs, the only thing stopping them from owning them is money. Period. Full stop.

[birdman]

Buying large amounts of chemicals used in explosives IS regulated...does it stop all acts of terror, of course not, and the deadliest chemicals are heavily restricted.

You do have to demonstrate some basic competence to drive your pickup, you had to get a license. You probably didn't complain much about that did you? But if we said you had to pass a mandatory test in ALL states to purchase a firearm you probably would.

Knives...anything can be used as a weapon, but the idea that regulation can't stop every act of violence is not a reason not to try to reduce them. That's why we restrict access to vehicles, the sale of power tools, potentially explosive reagents, none of these restrictions stop all crimes but they can make it more difficult to carry them out.

None of the things you describe are constitutionally protected...including knives, explosives, power tools, driving, etc. 

Also, the deadliest chemicals are not restricted at all.

[zxcvbob]

Trinitrotoluene [TNT] can be manufactured from reagents available cash and carry at any Home Depot in the country.

No it can't.     You can probably get the toluene and sulfuric acid there, but you'll need to further concentrate the acid.  AFAIK, they don't sell nitric acid nor anything that can be readily converted to nitric acid.

Your point is still valid, just not your example.

You do have to demonstrate some basic competence to drive your pickup, you had to get a license. You probably didn't complain much about that did you? But if we said you had to pass a mandatory test in ALL states to purchase a firearm you probably would.

Fail.  No license (or permit or insurance) is required to purchase a pickup, nor to drive it on private property.  The license and insurance are only needed if you want to take it on the public roadways.

[BlueStarLizzard]

*snort* I know plenty of people who've got access to a vehical and drive, and they don't have a valid drivers license.

You keep saying that regulations and limits are good, but then fail to show us how exactly they *work*.

How would forcing everyone to get a gun license to buy a gun stop all the idjits who don't get a license or lose their license from getting a gun?
Again, it sure as heck ain'y working with cars.

[Nick1911]

Buying large amounts of chemicals used in explosives IS regulated...does it stop all acts of terror, of course not, and the deadliest chemicals are heavily restricted.

I believe you would find that, provided it isn't a precursor for illegal drugs, many very dangerous chemicals are widely available.  

You do have to demonstrate some basic competence to drive your pickup, you had to get a license. You probably didn't complain much about that did you? But if we said you had to pass a mandatory test in ALL states to purchase a firearm you probably would.

I do not have to have a license to buy a pickup from a private party.  I give them cash, they give me the title and keys.  I have to have a license to operate in on public roads, just like I have to have a license to carry a firearm in public.

Knives...anything can be used as a weapon, but the idea that regulation can't stop every act of violence is not a reason not to try to reduce them. That's why we restrict access to vehicles, the sale of power tools, potentially explosive reagents, none of these restrictions stop all crimes but they can make it more difficult to carry them out.

We restrict sales of power tools?  I own many powertools I've purchased cash and carry.  Including machine tools.  I've rented heavy equipment before; there were no checks.  I had to provide a major credit card to make sure I wouldn't run off with their tooling...

Potentially explosive reagents, as already noted, are uncontrolled.

[edited to remove an accidentally inserted quote]

[CuriousAbootGuns]

As for c4 and ICBMs, the only thing stopping them from owning them is money. Period. Full stop.

So if I gave you a pallet full of cash, you could by ICBMs? How long would it take you to find them, negotiate the purchase, not get killed by the people you are dealing with, not get arrested, and not get blown up by a drone?

Ballpark estimates I would like from you:

How long until you have them in your possession?

Percentage likelihood that you survive this process as a free and alive individual?

[AmbulanceDriver]

Plenty of people want control but certainly that doesn't make them evil. We want our kids to be safe from perverts so we try to control which adults interact with them. That is controlling OUR kids, what aboot controlling other peoples behavior? Is it evil to limit the behavior of sex offenders by preventing them from being around schools or children's activities? No. It's sensible. I'm not saying all control is sensible, but am just making a point that we should be careful throwing a word like evil around.

Yes, we should be careful about throwing around the word "evil".   That doesn't, however, change the fact that there are people who are evil.  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," is more than a simple adage.  I would argue that "good intentions" have cause more harm than nearly anything else.  

Luke 6:43 - "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

1 Samuel 24:13 - As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you.

I choose to look at the fruits of their labors.  Do people like Feinstein and Schumer produce good fruit? or bad?

[Nick1911]

No it can't.     You can probably get the toluene and sulfuric acid there, but you'll need to further concentrate the acid.  AFAIK, they don't sell nitric acid nor anything that can be readily converted to nitric acid.

Yes, you can.

Sikagard Heavy Duty Concrete Clean & Etch contains about 20% by volume nitric acid.  It's available at depot.

Vacuum distillation is a simple procedure learned in organic chemistry I.  It does require some [uncontrolled] glassware, though.

[MicroBalrog]

You do have to demonstrate some basic competence to drive your pickup, you had to get a license. You probably didn't complain much about that did you? But if we said you had to pass a mandatory test in ALL states to purchase a firearm you probably would.

1. The only reason I don't complain about vehicle licensing is because I'm not sure how to abolish it. Don't make assumptions.

2. Second, vehicle licensing exists to assure that you will not get into accidents with your vehicle (as avoiding accidents with a vehicle requires skill). Gun licensing is not intended to avoid gun accidents (because gun accidents are not a major issue - everyone realizes that you are not really likely to accidentally shoot yourself dead with a gun - you're more likely to get hit by lightning. Gun accidents occur not due to a lack of marksmanship skill, but through total stupidity on someone's behalf).  The problem that some people have with gun ownership revolves around the problem of people being deliberately shot with guns.

Firearm licensing will have exactly one effect:

Impose costs on gun ownership, by creating more arbitrary hassle for you to go through when you buy a gun.

Passing a marksmanship test will not make you less likely to shoot another human being or to commit suicide.

It will only make it more difficult for you to own a gun.

So, if you believe that less people owning guns is, in and of itself, going to lead to less murders being committed... then surely you'd think that gun licensing is good.

But in that case you are not actually curiousaboutguns, you're actually full-on anti-gun.

Because that's what being anti-gun actually is, believing that more people lawfully owning more guns leads to more murders.

[Fjolnirsson]

I didn't say I could buy them. Nor would a pallet full of cash suffice. But the information is out there. It merely requires money to assemble/acquire. I personally have no interest in doing so, but as for how? A good place to start would be to set oneself up as a group of "freedom fighters" in a place where the US has a vested interest in toppling the existing government spreading democracy.

[CuriousAbootGuns]

I believe you would find that, provided it isn't a precursor for illegal drugs, many very dangerous chemicals are widely available. 

I do not have to have a license to buy a pickup from a private party.  I give them cash, they give me the title and keys.  I have to have a license to operate in on public roads, just like I have to have a license to carry a firearm in public.

We restrict sales of power tools?  I own many powertools I've purchased cash and carry.  Including machine tools.  I've rented heavy equipment before; there were no checks.  I had to provide a major credit card to make sure I wouldn't run off with their tooling...

Potentially explosive reagents, as already noted, are uncontrolled.

I work in a research lab and we use a number of deadly and explosive reagents, and I can assure you you can't get them easily.

Of course you don't need to have a license to hop in and drive a car, but requiring one to LEGALLY do so no doubt reduces the number of people who do just to avoid the consequences. Laws deter people from doing certain actions. Does it stop all people from doing those actions? Of course not and I never said it did, in fact I have explicitly stated that it doesn't on multiple posts.

[AZRedhawk44]

Yes, you can.

Sikagard Heavy Duty Concrete Clean & Etch contains about 20% by volume nitric acid.  It's available at depot.

Vacuum distillation is a simple procedure learned in organic chemistry I.  It does require some [uncontrolled] glassware, though.

I guess we need to regulate the ability to establish SSL VPN's to anonymizing SSH gateways in Europe to redirect one's Google searches, along with private party firearms sales.   

[CuriousAbootGuns]

I choose to look at the fruits of their labors.  Do people like Feinstein and Schumer produce good fruit? or bad?

They have no doubt produced both, just as most human beings do. I am sure that they have provided positive influences on their childrens' lives and other people around them. The world isn't black and white.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I work in a research lab and we use a number of deadly and explosive reagents, and I can assure you you can't get them easily.

Of course you don't need to have a license to hop in and drive a car, but requiring one to LEGALLY do so no doubt reduces the number of people who do just to avoid the consequences. Laws deter people from doing certain actions. Does it stop all people from doing those actions? Of course not and I never said it did, in fact I have explicitly stated that it doesn't on multiple posts.

Obviously you and I do not hang out with the same demographic.

The answer would be, "not really".

[brimic]

No it can't.     You can probably get the toluene and sulfuric acid there, but you'll need to further concentrate the acid.  AFAIK, they don't sell nitric acid nor anything that can be readily converted to nitric acid.

There's a improvised explosives FM out there (can't remember the number) that describes making high explosives starting litterally with dirt and anti-tank shaped charges with wine bottles.

When there's a will there's a way.

[MicroBalrog]

They have no doubt produced both, just as most human beings do. I am sure that they have provided positive influences on their childrens' lives and other people around them. The world isn't black and white.

Sure it is.

There are many, many utterly evil people out there. Some of them even love their children.

[MicroBalrog]

Plenty of people want control but certainly that doesn't make them evil. We want our kids to be safe from perverts so we try to control which adults interact with them. That is controlling OUR kids, what aboot controlling other peoples behavior? Is it evil to limit the behavior of sex offenders by preventing them from being around schools or children's activities?

1. Yes.

2. I am not a sex offender and most people aren't.

[Ron]

I've yet to see a compelling case on why we need any new infringement on our rights.

How about we lock up murderers and not let them out? How about you use a gun in the commission of a crime you get locked up and we don't let you out?

Considering the estimate is something like 40% of the crime is committed by a hardcore 5% of criminals who are repeat offenders I say lock em up and don't let them out.

Making life more difficult for the +99% of gun owners who don't commit crimes is not addressing the issue of crime.  

[CuriousAbootGuns]

1. The only reason I don't complain about vehicle licensing is because I'm not sure how to abolish it. Don't make assumptions.

2. Second, vehicle licensing exists to assure that you will not get into accidents with your vehicle (as avoiding accidents with a vehicle requires skill). Gun licensing is not intended to avoid gun accidents (because gun accidents are not a major issue - everyone realizes that you are not really likely to accidentally shoot yourself dead with a gun - you're more likely to get hit by lightning. Gun accidents occur not due to a lack of marksmanship skill, but through total stupidity on someone's behalf).  The problem that some people have with gun ownership revolves around the problem of people being deliberately shot with guns.

Firearm licensing will have exactly one effect:

Impose costs on gun ownership, by creating more arbitrary hassle for you to go through when you buy a gun.

Passing a marksmanship test will not make you less likely to shoot another human being or to commit suicide.

It will only make it more difficult for you to own a gun.

So, if you believe that less people owning guns is, in and of itself, going to lead to less murders being committed... then surely you'd think that gun licensing is good.

But in that case you are not actually curiousaboutguns, you're actually full-on anti-gun.

Because that's what being anti-gun actually is, believing that more people lawfully owning more guns leads to more murders.

Who is making assumptions now?! I do not believe that more people lawfully owning more guns leads to more murders. I am not full-on anti-gun. Believing that there may be minimally intrusive restrictions and requirements on citizens that could reduce gun violence is not being anti-gun. I think that sort of attitude is the negative stereotype of gun advocates that I was hoping to erase by getting a better idea of pro gun rights positions. The attitude that if someone says "maybe convicted violent offenders with mental disorders owning firearms might be something we should reconsider" is equivalent to "take everyones guns away!" is ridiculous.

You say gun licensing is not aboot reducing accidents. Does that mean you would support it if it were for that purpose? Instead of saying a magazine can't be larger than XX (which I don't support btw), we instead said: pass a skill and safety test first. Would you support that? Gun accidents may be a small percentage but wouldn't are polite and armed society be safer and more effective at stopping crime if individuals who were carrying were trained to a standard?

And one thing I just don't understand about the the laws only target criminals so don't enact them..isn't that what ALL laws do? I mean, it's illegal to drive drunk, but why have that law? It leads to sober drivers being stopped at checkpoints or asked additional questions during a traffic stop so it in fact leads to an inconvenience for law abiding citizens. Besides, people still drive drunk, does that mean drunk driving laws are a complete failure?

[zxcvbob]

Yes, you can.

Sikagard Heavy Duty Concrete Clean & Etch contains about 20% by volume nitric acid.  It's available at depot.

Vacuum distillation is a simple procedure learned in organic chemistry I.  It does require some [uncontrolled] glassware, though.

That's interesting.  Thanks.  20% nitric acid would be useful for etching copper for printed circuit boards*, and easier than messing with hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide (or cupric chloride.)  I found it in their MSDS search: http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/ca/cad46ea7-6dfa-4aa4-b353-30c6e795fb18.pdf but not in the online product search.  I wonder if it's still available or if it's been discontinued.

*it has been a long times since I've needed to etch a PC board.   

[CuriousAbootGuns]

Obviously you and I do not hang out with the same demographic.

The answer would be, "not really".

Well, try hanging out with law abiding citizens from time to time.

[Gewehr98]

Yeah, the nukes were out of left field, I was just being a jerk.

Just a tip from the moderator staff here - don't make a habit of that.