Author Topic: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs  (Read 14903 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« on: March 04, 2013, 10:15:08 AM »
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/obama-dhs-purchases-2700-light-armored-tanks-to-go-with-their-1-6-billion-bullet-stockpile/

2700 light-armored tanks.



They're obviously not being used on our southern border... where will they be used?

Local law enforcement already has a standing tradition of using National Guard resources when really bad thing start happening.

2700 of these things comes out to about 54 units per State.

Why does DHS need 50 tanks per State in the Union?
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 10:23:22 AM »
Aren't those things about a million bucks a pop?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Fitz

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 10:23:28 AM »
There's no such thing as a "light armored tank" with four wheels and without a main gun.

Just sayin
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 10:26:03 AM »
Additionally, the linked "source" says this.

The installation contract retrofits 2,717 vintage MaxxPro vehicles


Retrofit, not new purchase. Probably of existing vehicles being signed over to HSI and CPB by the Army.



Any sources on this other than nut-o-blogs?

I certainly haven't seen anything come across my desk about it. And one of our pieces of work is to provide BFT support for vehicle assets for DHS...
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RevDisk

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 10:34:58 AM »

I'm honestly scratching my head at the "Why?" It is less useful than some Suburbans, some box trucks, etc. It can go less places and will draw a lot more notice when it does. You can't exactly be discreet in one, and it can't go a lot of places normal cars can. It's not what you'd want to use for patrolling, or even most responses to stuff in the field. It's pretty rare you need even one of these. Armored tactical cars here in the US spend the majority of their time gathering dust. Maybe 5% of their use is on training and maybe .01% is being necessary.

Seriously. Those are going to waste away in warehouses unless DHS has been listening to too many Alex Jones radio shows and is about to play a major prank on him.

Even 54 of them per state is too low for oppressing the people. If locals have a long convoluted path to get access to them, they're not going to call when they need one for say a hostage situation. These are going to be stuck in some motor pool, and be used as props AFTER a mass disaster, shooting or other media event. So, very expensive billboards for DHS?
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 10:38:16 AM »
I'm honestly scratching my head at the "Why?" It is less useful than some Suburbans, some box trucks, etc. It can go less places and will draw a lot more notice when it does. You can't exactly be discreet in one, and it can't go a lot of places normal cars can. It's not what you'd want to use for patrolling, or even most responses to stuff in the field. It's pretty rare you need even one of these. Armored tactical cars here in the US spend the majority of their time gathering dust. Maybe 5% of their use is on training and maybe .01% is being necessary.

Seriously. Those are going to waste away in warehouses unless DHS has been listening to too many Alex Jones radio shows and is about to play a major prank on him.

Even 54 of them per state is too low for oppressing the people. If locals have a long convoluted path to get access to them, they're not going to call when they need one for say a hostage situation. These are going to be stuck in some motor pool, and be used as props AFTER a mass disaster, shooting or other media event. So, very expensive billboards for DHS?

I wonder why as well... But I'm thinking with the wars winding down (and the MRAP's utility outside of a police action is questionable at best,) they're probably getting them EXTREMELY cheap.

I also don't even think this is a credible source. Again, i've heard NOTHING official about large MRAP purchases by DHS.

I'd love to see a ton of these on the southern border.

EDIT: the video doesn't say anything about 2700

Are we sure this isn't something like a long term contract to retrofit?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 10:42:31 AM »
Seems like a legitimate Border PAtrol or SWAT vehicle.
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 10:47:00 AM »
Putting HSI as a direct report to DHS was a PR mistake.


HSI's primary missions are in support of CPB/ICE.

Human trafficking, weapons smuggling. Also, some elements of nuke/critical infrastructure security fall under them.


Recently, those dastardly stormtroopers busted a human smuggling ring up here on the northern border (using some of the systems i work on to plan/coordinate the op). THose brave patriots arrested by the jackbooted thugs at HSI included 80 or so indonesians who were simply trying to smuggle little girls into the country for sale into the sex trade.

Stupid HSI.


Also recently, my system was used to set up a mobile command post for a counter drug op that netted 17 million dollars in MJ.

I believe in legalization, and was a bit morally disturbed by the thought of busting a grower. Then I found out that the grower had smuggled in illegal immigrants and weapons to protect their fields.
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RevDisk

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 11:03:44 AM »
I wonder why as well... But I'm thinking with the wars winding down (and the MRAP's utility outside of a police action is questionable at best,) they're probably getting them EXTREMELY cheap.

I also don't even think this is a credible source. Again, i've heard NOTHING official about large MRAP purchases by DHS.

I'd love to see a ton of these on the southern border.

EDIT: the video doesn't say anything about 2700

Are we sure this isn't something like a long term contract to retrofit?

Could be DRMS, yea. Lot of police agencies got M113's the same way. That's the only thing that makes sense. "Hey, want 2k MRAPs for $1? You pay shipping costs."
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 11:04:51 AM »
Could be DRMS, yea. Lot of police agencies got M113's the same way. That's the only thing that makes sense. "Hey, want 2k MRAPs for $1? You pay shipping costs."

I'll ask around.

One of the reasons I like working here is that if teh st00pidz ever DOES come, I'll be in a position to know about it early
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Ben

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 11:07:41 AM »

Retrofit, not new purchase. Probably of existing vehicles being signed over to HSI and CPB by the Army.

Given the above, one has to wonder how much of this is because they needed them for something, versus some middle manager with a hard on for hardware getting them just because they look cool.

Interagency transfers like this are often $1 a pop, and some people can't pass up "the deal" regardless of how useful, or not, the equipment is. Stuff like this and DRMO is like Home Shopping Network for the .gov. Lots of people addicted to getting stuff just because they can.

Edit: Rev beat me too it.
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 11:09:31 AM »
Given the above, one has to wonder how much of this is because they needed them for something, versus some middle manager with a hard on for hardware getting them just because they look cool.

Interagency transfers like this are often $1 a pop, and some people can't pass up "the deal" regardless of how useful, or not, the equipment is. Stuff like this and DRMO is like Home Shopping Network for the .gov. Lots of people addicted to getting stuff just because they can.

Edit: Rev beat me too it.

Additionally, when parts are "full price," often it's cheaper to transfer entire vehicles for parts needs. There's a high probability that a huge chunk of any such vehicle purchase would be prepped for storage and used for spare parts.
Fitz

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HankB

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 01:12:17 PM »
The vehicles are simply going to be pre-positioned for the use of the UN troops from Pakistan, Cuba, Iran, and North Korea which Obama is planning to invite in to execute house-to-house searches for contraband guns as they enforce the UN Arms Control treaty in North America.

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 01:50:05 PM »
I'll ask around.

One of the reasons I like working here is that if teh st00pidz ever DOES come, I'll be in a position to know about it early
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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 02:09:57 PM »
Do us a favor,. will ya? ;)

There are many reasons why I plan to keep this job...
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 02:11:52 PM »
There's no such thing as a "light armored tank" with four wheels and without a main gun.

Just sayin

*nods*

Anything with appreciable armor and wheels is properly an "Armored Car."



Now here's a question for the elephant in the room: Yes, police types do sometimes need an armored car to protect themselves from boolets-from-badguys(tm). But why are they obtaining vehicles expressly designed to survive Improvised Explosive Devices and Rocket Propelled Grenades?

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 02:14:44 PM »
*nods*

Anything with appreciable armor and wheels is properly an "Armored Car."



Now here's a question for the elephant in the room: Yes, police types do sometimes need an armored car to protect themselves from boolets-from-badguys(tm). But why are they obtaining vehicles expressly designed to survive Improvised Explosive Devices and Rocket Propelled Grenades?

Because they're likely cheap, and just because it's good at one thing doesn't mean it won't be good at another.

Don't we make the argument about guns all the time? After all, an AR15 was "designed" for the US Armed forces. It's good for many uses other than killing the marauding commie hordes.

The MRAP is pretty good at defending folks from lightly armed, small ragtag groups of bad guys in an arid desert climate.

Can't imagine why HSI or CPB would want that...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 02:18:24 PM by Fitz »
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 02:36:53 PM »
Things like this (militarization of the police force) demonstrate exactly why the 2A should not be limited to semiautomatic-only, .50 caliber or smaller, non-explosive munitions.

In other words, if I can't disable the vehicle with 1 well aimed shot (using what I own in my safe) EXACTLY like David Lamson did to a British occupation force ammunition wagon in 18th century Massachusetts... it's too much for police to have and I object to it.

[exit stage right, muttering something unintelligible about Arduinos, rockets, thermite and javelins...]

 >:D
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Fitz

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 02:37:42 PM »
Things like this (militarization of the police force) demonstrate exactly why the 2A should not be limited to semiautomatic-only, .50 caliber or smaller, non-explosive munitions.

In other words, if I can't disable the vehicle with 1 well aimed shot (using what I own in my safe) EXACTLY like David Lamson did to a British occupation force ammunition wagon in 18th century Massachusetts... it's too much for police to have and I object to it.

[exit stage right, muttering something unintelligible about Arduinos, rockets, thermite and javelins...]

 >:D

An EFP can and will punch through an MRAP

And, i'd wager you're smarter than the average insurgent.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 02:37:51 PM »
Because they're likely cheap, and just because it's good at one thing doesn't mean it won't be good at another.

Don't we make the argument about guns all the time?

The MRAP is pretty good at defending folks from lightly armed, small ragtag groups of bad guys in an arid desert climate.

Can't imagine why HSI or CPB would want that...

Their construction makes them inherently dangerous to drive, prone to roll-over and brake failure type accidents. Collateral (read civilian) damage and casualties from these sorts of accidents in crowded urban and suburban areas will be substantially higher than, say, an up-armored suburban.*

Their size precludes them from a certain amount of maneuverability making it difficult to impossible to employ them in the tight confines often encountered urban or other built-up areas.

Their excessive weight precludes them from use on many roads due to damage to the paving or the utilities beneath.

The height and limited view through the armored windows makes it much more difficult for the drivers to see if there are people immediately adjacent to/in front of/behind the vehicle and will increase the danger of accidentally running over a pedestrian or a non-ambulatory or otherwise incapacitated person.

Certain parts subject to aging effects, such as tires, can not be effectively salvaged from extra vehicles and themselves carry substantial cost. The Michelin XZL tires for instance run about $1,000 each.

Due to their weight these vehicles suffer break-downs at a substantially higher rate than smaller vehicles that could fulfill a comparative role, hence the salvage supply of spare parts will be exhausted at an expedited rate at which point sourcing spares will become a much more expensive prospect.

Drivers of these vehicles require extensive additional training and then practical experience in the vehicle which equates to substantially increased costs. The time needed behind the wheel to become proficient drivers will obviate attempts to prevent vehicle wear through lack-of-use (and one must ask, what point is the vehicle if you're intentionally not using it to avoid maintenance costs?)


*As I recall the Army does not allow MRAP's to be operated on U.S. highways due to the increased danger they present. Instead they are shipped by low-rider semi-truck to the training facilities and back again. In contrast, the Stryker Armored Car is not restricted from the highways.


And finally, the ultimate reason: Because the police shouldn't have access to anything that isn't available to a private citizen.

dogmush

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 02:38:07 PM »
Let me start with I really don't think there's an evil plot to arm up our police forces to supress the citizenry and install tyranny.  If there was we would know because there's no way the fed.gov could keep that a secret.

but......

If there is going to be an American Stazi coming for us in the night I'm kind of glad they're useing vehicles that many Americans are familiar with, have used and know all the weaknesses.

Just sayin'......I can frak up an MRAP's wholesale.....whereas if they bought surplus BTR-90's I wouldn't know where to start.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2013, 02:40:16 PM »
Let me start with I really don't think there's an evil plot to arm up our police forces to supress the citizenry and install tyranny.  If there was we would know because there's no way the fed.gov could keep that a secret.

but......

If there is going to be an American Stazi coming for us in the night I'm kind of glad they're useing vehicles that many Americans are familiar with, have used and know all the weaknesses.

Just sayin'......I can frak up an MRAP's wholesale.....whereas if they bought surplus BTR-90's I wouldn't know where to start.

As Fitz mentioned, EFP's are kinda a one-size-fits-all solution for armored threats.  ;)

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2013, 02:41:07 PM »
Their construction makes them inherently dangerous to drive, prone to roll-over and brake failure type accidents. Collateral (read civilian) damage and casualties from these sorts of accidents in crowded urban and suburban areas will be substantially higher than, say, an up-armored suburban.*

Their size precludes them from a certain amount of maneuverability making it difficult to impossible to employ them in the tight confines often encountered urban or other built-up areas.

Their excessive weight precludes them from use on many roads due to damage to the paving or the utilities beneath.

The height and limited view through the armored windows makes it much more difficult for the drivers to see if there are people immediately adjacent to/in front of/behind the vehicle and will increase the danger of accidentally running over a pedestrian or a non-ambulatory or otherwise incapacitated person.

Certain parts subject to aging effects, such as tires, can not be effectively salvaged from extra vehicles and themselves carry substantial cost. The Michelin XZL tires for instance run about $1,000 each.

Due to their weight these vehicles suffer break-downs at a substantially higher rate than smaller vehicles that could fulfill a comparative role, hence the salvage supply of spare parts will be exhausted at an expedited rate at which point sourcing spares will become a much more expensive prospect.

Drivers of these vehicles require extensive additional training and then practical experience in the vehicle which equates to substantially increased costs. The time needed behind the wheel to become proficient drivers will obviate attempts to prevent vehicle wear through lack-of-use (and one must ask, what point is the vehicle if you're intentionally not using it to avoid maintenance costs?)


*As I recall the Army does not allow MRAP's to be operated on U.S. highways due to the increased danger they present. Instead they are shipped by low-rider semi-truck to the training facilities and back again. In contrast, the Stryker Armored Car is not restricted from the highways.

Sure, all this is true. I'd wager they'd still be usable along the border.

At worst, this is simply a dumb dumb purchase. I don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.



As to the above stuff, i'll just say this. We now have almost 13 years of PROOF that a small group of folks with rifles and improvised explosives can Eff up the best the US Army has to offer.

I also suspect that, in such a SHTF scenario, a lot of army material would be looted and used.
Fitz

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Stetson

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2013, 02:41:24 PM »
"We don't need military style things on our streets" was the quote, I think.  You can correct me but that is the jist of it.


Fitz

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Re: Evidently DHS needs MRAPs
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2013, 02:41:57 PM »
As Fitz mentioned, EFP's are kinda a one-size-fits-all solution for armored threats.  ;)

I've seen friggin ABRAMS TANKS with holes in em from EFPs. One in particular, no one survived.

Not a whole lot to do about an EFP but pray for the dart not forming correctly, or a bungled initiator
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