Evidently DHS needs MRAPs

[Fitz]

"We don't need military style things on our streets" was the quote, I think.  You can correct me but that is the jist of it.

Again, HSI's primary duty relates to support of CPB.

I , and many of the people on this board IIRC, have NEVER objected to military hardware being used for border security. In fact, many on this board have advocated more drastic measures than some armored trucks of questionable utility

[kgbsquirrel]

Sure, all this is true. I'd wager they'd still be usable along the border.
...

On a border where there has been a demonstrated threat of RPG's and anti-material rifles, they'd be an outstanding resource (but still expensive to maintain and operate). My eye-brow goes up though when I see them rolling along I-70 here in Denver. And I have.

[dogmush]

As Fitz mentioned, EFP's are kinda a one-size-fits-all solution for armored threats. 

Yeah, but you can stop an MRAP waaay easier then building an EFP.  

As to the above stuff, i'll just say this. We now have almost 13 years of PROOF that a small group of folks with rifles and improvised explosives can Eff up the best the US Army has to offer.

This.  I've said several times that the .gov would have to be suicidally stupid to let it go all Alliance v. Browncoats with several thousands of folk that have spent the last decade getting what amounts to a graduate degree in insurgency.

[Fitz]

On a border where there has been a demonstrated threat of RPG's and anti-material rifles, they'd be an outstanding resource (but still expensive to maintain and operate). My eye-brow goes up though when I see them rolling along I-70 here in Denver. And I have.

You saw CPB/HSI/DHS/WTFBBQ branded MRAPs rolling down i70 in denver?

Are you sure they weren't guard assets?




http://world.time.com/2012/10/25/mexicos-drug-lords-ramp-up-their-arsenals-with-rpgs/


I suppose when the first RPG or 50 cal rifle is shot at a texas rancher instead of just a regular gun, it'll be ok?



We're expressing outrage over an agency involved in border security (and nuke/infrastructure security) buying armored vehicles. Would it be better if the US military handled those missions?

[kgbsquirrel]

You saw CPB/HSI/DHS/WTFBBQ branded MRAPs rolling down i70 in denver?

Are you sure they weren't guard assets?

DHS, solid tan, I-70 west-bound between I-25 and I-270. 4x4, similar to an RG-32.


ETA: Fitz, go back and read my previous post. 

Also, yes, I'd say the military would be appropriate on the Mexican border. We've done a better job securing the Afghanistan/Pakistan border than Border Patrol has ever done on the Mexican/American border.

[Fitz]

DHS, solid tan, I-70 west-bound between I-25 and I-270. 4x4, similar to an RG-32.

That's interesting.

I wonder what it was doing there.

I'll ask the HSI guys what kinds of missions their colorado assets have.

Will report back tomorrow

[AZRedhawk44]

That's interesting.

I wonder what it was doing there.

I'll ask the HSI guys what kinds of missions their colorado assets have.

Will report back tomorrow

They could tell you... but then they'd have to kill you.   

We'll know if Fitz gets told tomorrow or not.   

[Fitz]

DHS, solid tan, I-70 west-bound between I-25 and I-270. 4x4, similar to an RG-32.


ETA: Fitz, go back and read my previous post. 

Also, yes, I'd say the military would be appropriate on the Mexican border. We've done a better job securing the Afghanistan/Pakistan border than Border Patrol has ever done on the Mexican/American border.

I agree, but then you'd have people complaining about a military with a domestic mission.

"Border" security doesn't just happen within the borders. HSI and ICE frequently take down human smuggling operations that have tendrils deep into america.

Anyways, apparently one of the SAC's is in denver. Think FBI field office, but for HSI/ICE. Here's a map.

http://www.ice.gov/contact/inv/#denver

Interestingly enough, it seems to be the only one that is smack dab in the middle of the country. I wonder if the pathways through the mountains/whatever make it an artery for stuff coming in somehow.

Anyways. I'll ask around. See what kind of stuff they do in CO

[kgbsquirrel]

I agree, but then you'd have people complaining about a military with a domestic mission.

"Border" security doesn't just happen within the borders. HSI and ICE frequently take down human smuggling operations that have tendrils deep into america.
...

Intercepting a foreign enemy incursion onto U.S. soil is not a domestic mission, and is entirely appropriate for the military, and stating that they can not patrol the border and prevent/intercept unauthorized crossings due to the peregrine nature of smuggling is specious.

[Fitz]

Intercepting an external enemy incursion onto U.S. soil is not a domestic mission, and is entirely appropriate for the military, and stating that they can not patrol the border and prevent/intercept unauthorized crossings due to the peregrine nature of smuggling is specious.

I didn't precisely say that.

My point is that, when the US Army raided a house with indonesion human smugglers in it, people would be up in arms about military on US soil conducting operations.


So, you'd have to have the military doing the border part, and a civilian LE agency doing the internal stuff.

Of course, that would probably work fine, as interagency information sharing is fantastic.

[kgbsquirrel]

...
So, you'd have to have the military doing the border part, and a civilian LE agency doing the internal stuff.

Of course, that would probably work fine, as interagency information sharing is fantastic.

You may be forgetting that intel was my specialty during my stint. It would not be overly hard to park a few BP/FBI types in the S2 shops of who-ever is commanding the troops on the border, and also embedding some BP ride-alongs with the troops on patrol to do the intel gathering when they catch a group.

By the by, I personally would confine the military to a 12 mile (from the border, north) operational corridor. Similar to territorial waters, but reversed and on land. The only time they could deviate from this corridor would be in active pursuit of folks illegally crossing.

[Fitz]

You may be forgetting that intel was my specialty during my stint. It would not be overly hard to park a few BP/FBI types in the S2 shops of who-ever is commanding the troops on the border, and also embedding some BP ride-alongs with the troops on patrol to do the intel gathering when they catch a group.

By the by, I personally would confine the military to a 12 mile (from the border, north) operational corridor. Similar to territorial waters, but reversed and on land. The only time they could deviate from this corridor would be in active pursuit of folks illegally crossing.

Sure, it wouldn't be hard.

Assuming that US LE agencies, and the military, were anything other than a flusterlcuck at all levels.

In order for your (by the way, EXCELLENT) plan to work, it would require a complete dismantling and rebuilding of the organizational structure of CPB/ICE/DHS/ZOMGWTFBBQ


Which would be a good thing, sure.



None of what you have said is false. However, that's NOT the situation we have, and it's not the situation we'll get.

So, in the meantime, again... I see very little malice in HSI having armored vehicles.


EDIT: I'm sorry... I'm not articulating myself well.

Here's a summary

FACT: kgbsquirrel's plan would be awesome. Especially if coupled with a pullout from everywhere else.

- We don't have that, and won't anytime soon.

- There are some situations in which armored vehicles are applicable/useful in CPB/ICE/HSI missions

- They probably got these mraps for st00pid cheapz

- Hence any limitations or ill-suitedness of the platform is likely outweighed by the cost savings.

Another thought. If the evil DHS (and that's not sarcastic... While I think there's plenty of folks in sub agencies who do valuable work, it's a *expletive deleted*it organization as a whole) wanted to wage war on the citizenry, I don't think they'd do it with 50 MRAPs per state (assuming the number is accurate. I'm not convinced that it is.)

[Tallpine]

Let me start with I really don't think there's an evil plot to arm up our police forces to supress the citizenry and install tyranny.  If there was we would know because there's no way the fed.gov could keep that a secret.
...

So now we know; it's not a secret 

[geronimotwo]

2700 of these things comes out to about 54 units per State.

Why does DHS need 50 tanks per State in the Union?

sounds like the perfect vehicle to run with the blackhawk live fire exercises!   

[AZRedhawk44]

sounds like the perfect vehicle to run with the blackhawk live fire exercises!   

Yeah, no kidding.  Billions of rounds of ammo, machine gun fire from helicopters in urban areas, drones for domestic use intended to spot people armed with rifles, and MRAPs.

Then fitz tells us:

Move along, move along!  Nothing to see here.

I'm all warm and fuzzy in my Obamacare-provided fleece-lined straight jacket.

[Fitz]

I just think there's better uses of your outrage.

Still can't find a source on that 2700 number

[Waitone]

Is this a new rumor of armored vehicles.  Seems i remember an earlier story of a couple of thousand light vehicles similar to a BMP complete with spiffy DHS paint job and department seal.  Seems this rumor had gun ports running down the side.

I think the rumor's author took an oldie and combined it with a picture of an MRAP.  The only idiocy we haven't heard yet is the MRAP have manacles on the wall and a guillotine in the back.

Idiocy at is finest! 

[Frank Castle]

Well i see no "special antennas" on the MRAP's in the states................................. 

So the same "tools" used in Iraq ,would work in the USA . 









 

[Gewehr98]

Several years ago, the BATF got their pee-pee smacked for assembling an air wing of 22 surplus USMC OV-10 Broncos.

The State Department owns them now, and they deploy out of Patrick AFB, spraying South American cocaine fields with Round Up.   

[cordex]

Several years ago, the BATF got their pee-pee smacked for assembling an air wing of 22 surplus USMC OV-10 Broncos.

The State Department owns them now, and they deploy out of Patrick AFB, spraying South American cocaine fields with Round Up.   

Monsanto is missing a big market for Roundup Ready products ...

[RocketMan]

Another thought. If the evil DHS (and that's not sarcastic... While I think there's plenty of folks in sub agencies who do valuable work, it's a *expletive deleted* organization as a whole) wanted to wage war on the citizenry, I don't think they'd do it with 50 MRAPs per state (assuming the number is accurate. I'm not convinced that it is.)

It might be some DHS idiot thinking, "I got a stoopid cheap deal on some major awesomze gear", to 'wage war on the citizenry' as you put it, not realizing the seriously limited utility of the things for that purpose.  Stupid compounding stupid in this instance.
Most of the folks in DHS are probably stand-up decent types, but odds favor there being a handful clowns in the agency that think that way.

[T.O.M.]

Back when I was a prosecutor, I did advisor work for the county SWAT team.  Every year, they would get an invite to a nearby military faciliity where they drew a number,, and wen that number xame up, they went into a warehouse with a number of tags.  Inside the warehouse was thousands of items that DOD had declared surplus, and law enforcement got first dibs on some items.  It really was all I could do one year to stop the guys from tagging a UH-1 helocopter, much less two of the six that were up for grabs. 

It's hard to say no to coll stuff,, especially if it's free.

[tokugawa]

Was it DEA or ATF that ended up with a bunch of OV-10 Bronco's sometime in the 90's?  Seemed like light counter insurgency aircraft were a bit outside the mission parameters... unless they sent them south somewhere.

[MillCreek]

^^^ What Chris describes is how my county Sheriff department got their UH-1 helicopter. 

[RevDisk]

Back when I was a prosecutor, I did advisor work for the county SWAT team.  Every year, they would get an invite to a nearby military faciliity where they drew a number,, and wen that number xame up, they went into a warehouse with a number of tags.  Inside the warehouse was thousands of items that DOD had declared surplus, and law enforcement got first dibs on some items.  It really was all I could do one year to stop the guys from tagging a UH-1 helocopter, much less two of the six that were up for grabs. 

It's hard to say no to coll stuff,, especially if it's free.

I wonder what restrictions there are on reselling the stuff once it's in their possession. If it was legal, an enterprising police department could basically become self-funding by reselling milsurp and any other "surplus" equipment they don't need anymore.