How would you start securing the Mex/U.S. border?

[Cliffh]

If I owned property along the border and the .gov (at any level) wanted to buy me out in order to establish a presence at the border, I might consider selling.

On the other hand, if they (.gov) were to simply come in and setup camp, I might have a problem.

I'm all for stopping the invasion by illegals.  But any plan will have to take into consideration those who own property along the border.

Thinking about it, I might also be interested in a long-term lease.  Y'all can lease a portion of my property in perpetuity, from the border out to x distance and have right-of-way across specifically designated areas.  Hell, might even lease it for $1 per year.  My lawyer would hash out the details, but basically the .gov can't mess up the rest of the land.

[280plus]

Hate to say it but we need the workers. Make it easy for migrants to come here to work. Make them pay things like income tax and SS. Legalize drugs to take the foundation out from underneath the smugglers. Tax that too. legalizing prostitution would probably go a long way to stop the human trafficking. Not to mention reduce the spread of disease. Tax that too. After all that, who is going to need to cross the border illegally?

[MicroBalrog]

Now, the following things are not very Constitutional, and would probably be impossible after we overthrow the welfare state. However, in the world today, I would also do the following:

Introduce a tax cut or rebate for every employer in the agricultural industry and other industries where illegals are commonly employed for introducing automation in the workplace.

Can't come here for the jobs if there ain't any jobs for them to be qualified for.

[AZRedhawk44]

Again, a good start, but there's more than just illegal migrant workers coming across the border.

Weapon smuggling (heading north, despite what the media claims)
Drug smuggling
Human smuggling (despite popular belief, slavery is alive and well in the world, including in the U.S., most notably regarding prostitution)

So, you've covered one out of four problems coming across the border, what about the other three?

End gun prohibition.
End drug prohibition.
End sex prohibition.

That pretty much just leaves the under-18 sex trade, which we kill with fire.

Problem solved.

[HankB]

Hate to say it but we need the workers.

How about tapping into the millions of non-working Americans who Obama added to the food stamp rolls? Adjust welfare benefits accordingly, and they'll start working once they get hungry enough.

[charby]

How about tapping into the millions of non-working Americans who Obama added to the food stamp rolls? Adjust welfare benefits accordingly, and they'll start working once they get hungry enough.

While I agree with your idea, the devil in the details is moving some/many of the people to the jobs.

[birdman]

Multi-step:
1. Eliminate minimum wage
2. Extend health insurance deductibility to everyone, not just employers
3. Allow insurance portability
4. Increase penalties for illegal employees
5. Increase throughput of INS
6. Eliminate ALL govt benefits for illegals
7. Revoke visa/resident status for negative tax basis immigrants based on multi-year--if you have net negative impact on economy after X years, goodbye.
8. Allow "buy in" citizenship
9. Incentivize targeted immigration for STEM with tax benefits, apply to citizens as well--including tax benefits for entrepreneurship
10. Eliminate "anchor baby" laws and corresponding preference for relatives except for #8
11. Massively increase enforcement/deportation
12. Absolutely secure border--true fence.

[Ron]

Multi-step:
1. Eliminate minimum wage
2. Extend health insurance deductibility to everyone, not just employers
3. Allow insurance portability
4. Increase penalties for illegal employees
5. Increase throughput of INS
6. Eliminate ALL govt benefits for illegals
7. Revoke visa/resident status for negative tax basis immigrants based on multi-year--if you have net negative impact on economy after X years, goodbye.
8. Allow "buy in" citizenship
9. Incentivize targeted immigration for STEM with tax benefits, apply to citizens as well--including tax benefits for entrepreneurship
10. Eliminate "anchor baby" laws and corresponding preference for relatives except for #8
11. Massively increase enforcement/deportation
12. Absolutely secure border--true fence.

If we did 1-11 then #12 would be superfluous.

I would like the focus to be on 1-11 more than #12 though. The desire for a fence is in reality a symptom of the rest of our immigration policy being a mess. Straighten out the immigration mess and the perceived need for a fence will drop dramatically. 

[Tallpine]

Hate to say it but we need the workers. Make it easy for migrants to come here to work. Make them pay things like income tax and SS. Legalize drugs to take the foundation out from underneath the smugglers. Tax that too. legalizing prostitution would probably go a long way to stop the human trafficking. Not to mention reduce the spread of disease. Tax that too. After all that, who is going to need to cross the border illegally?

Yeah, I'm not even sure that I care about the border anymore.  The fed.gov is more of a danger than immigration.  Not to mention that the feds work at keeping the good people out. 

[roo_ster]

Hate to say it but we need the workers. Make it easy for migrants to come here to work. Make them pay things like income tax and SS. Legalize drugs to take the foundation out from underneath the smugglers. Tax that too. legalizing prostitution would probably go a long way to stop the human trafficking. Not to mention reduce the spread of disease. Tax that too. After all that, who is going to need to cross the border illegally?

Yeah, not so much.  The migrant labor portion of  the end user cost of a head of lettuce is pennies.  Doubling that cost brings in the total cost to less than a thin dime. 

The entire swath of illegal alien un/low/semi-skilled labor accounts for such a small proportion of our nation's GDP, it could be lost in rounding errors. 

I'm all for stopping the invasion by illegals.  But any plan will have to take into consideration those who own property along the border.

Thinking about it, I might also be interested in a long-term lease.  Y'all can lease a portion of my property in perpetuity, from the border out to x distance and have right-of-way across specifically designated areas.  Hell, might even lease it for $1 per year.  My lawyer would hash out the details, but basically the .gov can't mess up the rest of the land.

Most of the southern border is desert.  Not worth a damn.  Even the border along the Rio Grande (Mis-named, IME.  Not so grand.) isn't worth much, as water use of the RG is so heavily restricted by law & treaty.

[280plus]

How about tapping into the millions of non-working Americans who Obama added to the food stamp rolls? Adjust welfare benefits accordingly, and they'll start working once they get hungry enough.

I can't think of a single rebuttal to this  

[AZRedhawk44]

 

Most of the southern border is desert.  Not worth a damn.  Even the border along the Rio Grande (Mis-named, IME.  Not so grand.) isn't worth much, as water use of the RG is so heavily restricted by law & treaty.

You do know that the American Southwest is a frigging farming mecca and a miracle of modern irrigation, don't you?

The southwest is John Deere's largest and frequently most profitable territories.

Take a trip out to Yuma, AZ sometime.  or El Centro, CA.

Other parts of the border near SE AZ or NM have significant pecan, walnut and other tree-borne nut crops.

[roo_ster]

You do know that the American Southwest is a frigging farming mecca and a miracle of modern irrigation, don't you?

The southwest is John Deere's largest and frequently most profitable territories.

Take a trip out to Yuma, AZ sometime.  or El Centro, CA.

Other parts of the border near SE AZ or NM have significant pecan, walnut and other tree-borne nut crops.

Now, look whose sacred cow walnut is getting squeezed?

Yes, but along the border not so much.  Where the RG is the border, water use is tied up six ways to Sunday.  Where the RG is not the border, water sources are too flipping far.  And much of it would not exist without extortion of the taxpayers and gov'ts "invisible foot" mucking up the market.

Most of that "frigging farming mecca" would wither away without serious, big-time, ethanol-dwarfing gov't water subsidies and use restrictions.  Remove the taxpayer-dollar support, force the ag users to compete with all the other potential users on the market, and you'd see a lot of them say, "Well, Hell, it doesn't make any sense to grow this stuff out in the middle of the desert."

[roo_ster]

My ideas are relatively conventional, though have been proved effective when implemented.  They consist of removing the draw, erecting barriers, and using .gov interaction with illegals to thin the herd.


Remove the Draw
Two big issues here: unethical employers and the welfare state.

Unethical/Law-Breaking Employers
Fastest, easiest and most painless step would be to make E-Verify mandatory & nation-wide.  It is free to use and would eliminate most of the legitimate jobs where the illegal presents bogus papers and the employer ignores repeated letters telling them of a SSN/TIN mismatch.  Also, prosecuting those who hire illegals on the books is an easy step.  See those SSN/TIN mis-match letters.  $1000/illegal/day.

Off-the-books/cash economy illegal alien employment ought to be treated in a manner similar to hunting regulation violations: Fine & forfeiture of the equipment used in furtherance of the violation.  Pick up some good Catholic boys in your pickup to swing picks on a trench?  Say buh-by to your truck and the tools.  Have one of those GCBs running your backhoe?  Looks like you can get it back at auction.  Similar implementations vs on-the-books employers, but this is the main tool vs off-the-books illegal alien employers.


Welfare State
Welfare for American citizens, only.  Congress can pre-empt uppity judges on this one by a vote denying the Sup Court authority here.  I would relent only with emergency medical care.  As soon as the illegal is stable, they get a free ticket back home and an armed escort.  Chronic/long-term care to be done at their country of origin.  They can be treated much cheaper (in an absolute sense) back home in any case.


Gov Interaction
Illegals interact with various units of gov't all the time.  They just don;t do anything about it.  Walk into the county hospital with an emergency situation?  Get patched up & sent home.  Try to enroll your anchor babies in gov't schools?  Off they go.  Pulled over for their fourth DUI?  Back home before they sober up.  Traffic cop sees 8 kids in the cab and 4 more in the pickup bed?  Send them all back.  Apply for food stamps?  See ya.  Register their auto or try to get a DL?  Buh-bye.

Pretty much you WANT them to keep "in the shadows" as much as possible, avoiding contact with .gov types and decent citizens.  That way they cost us less and dissuade many for even trying.  Whenever nitwits talk about bringing illegals "out of the shadows," I want to smack them.


Barriers to Entry
Yes, some of it is rough country (I have walked some of the roughest bits), but it is nothing we have not secured for other countries or that the Israelis have not already done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_Egypt_%E2%80%93_Gaza_Strip_barrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
Google some of the gulf states for hints, too.

I did an open-source ROM, referencing the Israeli fences and determined the cost to fence (vehicle & human) the southern border pretty reasonable.  I posted the results here for TheRabbi to rail and gnash his teeth against some years back.  For some reason or another, the solution that was good for his tribe was not good for us plain old Americans.

Toss in UGS, automated EOIR & RF surveillance along with the commo & power support they need and you are almost there.  Already have some UAVs.  I would place them in support of ground sensors and ground patrols.  The last component is humans and training.  Considering how much time our troops already spend in gawdforsaken deserts, sharpening their patrolling, ambushing, raiding, & operations skills along the border is a fine way to keep the border patrolled.  Both foot and mounted, with civilian BP LEO accompaniment.  Last, a few heli-borne rapid reaction forces (ground RRFs are already assumed).


Other Issues


14th Amendment
Here is the section that some think problematic:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Somehow the meaning of the word "and" is lost to some in this case.  We understand it when it comes to the family & kin of foreign ambassadors (from whom we withhold American birthright citizenship), but grant it to illiterate peasants.


Legalization
Legalizing many/most drugs will have a beneficial effect, but the big problem with the border is not goods, but people.


Welfare Reform
Remove the incentive to loaf and have children folk can not afford.  When folk start getting hungry, they will bestir themselves.  Also, remove the minimum wage so the less-employable have a way to get on the ladder.


Where to put Them Until Deportation
Lots of space in the southwest.  My suggestion is a "Camp Green Lake" solution with hog wire.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holes_%28film%29):
* Located in BFE southwest.
* Get the privilege of digging trenches & filling sand bags to build the walls and structures.
* Stick around until deported, not less than a month, so as to disrupt employment opportunities.
* See Arpaio for other amenities

[Tallpine]

I don't see why employers should be held liable for the failure of the fed.gov to secure the borders. 

Maybe we should apply the same draconian measures against the gov for giving free $hit to non-citizens 

[French G.]

I'm all for Mexican regime change, just keep it up until they get one who can make their country function and the people want to stay home. All the central american immigrants can then get a job in Mexico, leaving us to deal with just the Chinese spies, and hot Ukranian waitresses. Then the final touch. Seed money to mexican businesses for all the stuff hipsters like. Within a year Mexico will build our fence for us to keep them out.

[Tallpine]

I'm all for Mexican regime change, just keep it up until they get one who can make their country function and the people want to stay home. All the central american immigrants can then get a job in Mexico, leaving us to deal with just the Chinese spies, and hot Ukranian waitresses. Then the final touch. Seed money to mexican businesses for all the stuff hipsters like. Within a year Mexico will build our fence for us to keep them out.

Hell, they all want to live in the USSA - just annex Mexico as a territory 

[HankB]

While I agree with your idea, the devil in the details is moving some/many of the people to the jobs.

A few items to consider . . .

1. Approximately 12,000,000 illegals are in the US, according to conservative estimates.

2. Take 1000 busses; this seems like a lot, but it's roughly the number "Chocolate" Ray Nagin allowed to be flooded in NOLA when Katrina hit.

3. 40 illegals per bus x 1000 busses = 40,000 per trip. 3 trips per week, 120,000 per week. 100 weeks - less than 2 years - that's your 12,000,000 illegals.

Of course, after the first few weeks, catching illegals will become more difficult, so you won't need all that transport headed South; at that point, you can divert some ot it to move hungry able-bodied (former) welfare recipients closer to their new jobs. The cost of the busses will be paid for from the medical, school, and prison systems that will no longer need to medicate, educate, and incarcerate so many illegals, estimated to be several billion dollars in TX alone.

It can be done - broadly speaking, the logistics are clear. But as a nation, we'd rather commit national suicide than solve a problem in a way that might hurt people's feelings.

[RevDisk]

How do you secure the US border? Cut off the incentive. Insanely fine and jail employers for knowingly hiring illegal workers. Divide the cost of illegal immigration, including enforcement, among businesses caught employing illegal immigrants. Jail those knowingly violating the law. Provide reward, as a portion of fines assessed, for anyone reporting an employer of illegal immigrants. Make it relatively easy to verify citizenship.

Basically, make illegal immigration more economically disadvantageous than hiring legal employees. If illegals couldn't find jobs, they wouldn't come. Not an instant fix, but a thorough one.

Hate to say it but we need the workers. Make it easy for migrants to come here to work. Make them pay things like income tax and SS. Legalize drugs to take the foundation out from underneath the smugglers. Tax that too. legalizing prostitution would probably go a long way to stop the human trafficking. Not to mention reduce the spread of disease. Tax that too. After all that, who is going to need to cross the border illegally?

Wage stagnation up the chain
Why hire folks at or near minimum wage when you can hire an illegal? It's not directly the pay either. There's virtually no liability, workman's comp or taxes. The pay is part of it. The rest of it adds up very quick. Which means folks at minimum wage following the law are at a disadvantage. If they get caught breaking the law, they'll face consequences. If an illegal is caught, they're usually just deported. The folks just above minimum wage are also impacted because you have a labor pool that distorted. Wages go up because of supply and demand, just like anything else. If you have too much supply, prices stay down. Good for business owners willing to break the law, not so much for folks obeying the law.

Taxes
Illegals use tax dollars, but pay only indirect taxes. Sales tax, gas tax, etc. It's still a fraction of their tax load. Again, if the legal labor supply goes to the hospital with no medical insurance, it'll haunt them if they don't pay. If an illegal goes, again, worse case, deporting.

Illegals are only price effective because they are breaking the law. If employers had to pay taxes, cover workman's comp, etc they'd probably just hire legal employees in a large percentage of the case. I concur with legalization of everything, which will increase public safety, decrease crime and decrease enforcement costs.

Multi-step:
1. Eliminate minimum wage
2. Extend health insurance deductibility to everyone, not just employers
3. Allow insurance portability
4. Increase penalties for illegal employees
5. Increase throughput of INS
6. Eliminate ALL govt benefits for illegals
7. Revoke visa/resident status for negative tax basis immigrants based on multi-year--if you have net negative impact on economy after X years, goodbye.
8. Allow "buy in" citizenship
9. Incentivize targeted immigration for STEM with tax benefits, apply to citizens as well--including tax benefits for entrepreneurship
10. Eliminate "anchor baby" laws and corresponding preference for relatives except for #8
11. Massively increase enforcement/deportation
12. Absolutely secure border--true fence.

I'm iffy about 1. It's not that huge of a deal, per numbers MillCreek has dug up.

The rest are rather good. I'd also toss something in there about making regulations easier to comply with. Starting a business should be easy and straightforward, to include how to assess and collect taxes.

[AZRedhawk44]

Now, look whose sacred cow walnut is getting squeezed?

Yes, but along the border not so much.  Where the RG is the border, water use is tied up six ways to Sunday.  Where the RG is not the border, water sources are too flipping far.  And much of it would not exist without extortion of the taxpayers and gov'ts "invisible foot" mucking up the market.

Most of that "frigging farming mecca" would wither away without serious, big-time, ethanol-dwarfing gov't water subsidies and use restrictions.  Remove the taxpayer-dollar support, force the ag users to compete with all the other potential users on the market, and you'd see a lot of them say, "Well, Hell, it doesn't make any sense to grow this stuff out in the middle of the desert."

It's not a sacred cow to me.  My dad works for John Deere, not me. 

But, you are not going to have food growing in the Southwest in October through March if you do that, meaning you now have to feed large portions of America from some other part of the country.  You can't really grow much in Iowa in those months, hence the reason for creating an irrigation system in a place that has lots of sunshine to grow food.

Of all the foibles I could point to in government interference in commerce or liberty, I'm going to hold off on condemnation of roads and irrigation and the electrical grid until we tackle the health care and education and welfare issues first.   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I can't think of a single rebuttal to this  

think harder  there is a reason why they need the labor
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57551.html

[280plus]

granted I couldhave said things like menial labor that Americans won't do and low wages but I'd rather see the deadbeats taken off the dole so I can't argue with the idea.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

how do you plan on
a getting them to work?
b  being worth minimum wage?  heck being good enough to not ruin more crop than they pick?

[AZRedhawk44]

how do you plan on
a getting them to work?
b  being worth minimum wage?  heck being good enough to not ruin more crop than they pick?

a.  Move.  I've done it twice for work.  Cross-country.
b.  Fire them if they are that awful that they can't do what illiterate foreign peasants can do, and let people who actually care about them, take care of them. 

No one ever said you had a free right to live wherever you want and not do any work, and suck off the labor of others.  Death happens in the animal kingdom.  Gues what?  Humans are animals, too.

[Scout26]

1.  Get rid of minimum wage.  Allow employers to pay people what they are worth.
2.  IIRC, the numbers I've seen show that EBT, Welfare, Unemployment, Section 8 housing, S-CHIP, etc. are worth roughly $28 per hour.   Limit it to 4 months max.  If you can't find  something in 4 months, maybe we need something like the CCC again.  (based on the story that C&SD posted).   You work, you get food, housing, medical care.  No work?  Sucks to be you.
3.  If you want to punish employers that hire illegals, then put those "do-gooders" that drag you into court if you dare question someone's I-9 docs.  Especially when they misspell "Ameicra" on their green card.  (Yes, I refused to hire said person and got a visit from attorneys and our company backed down, because Chicago is a "Sanctuary City".)
4.  Secure the border.  (lots of ideas and ways to make it happen here.  I have nothing to add.)
5.  Catch and deport.  No Anchor Babies.  Just because you dropped your kid here, doesn't make it a citizen.