Author Topic: And now, telling you to go to the doctor  (Read 3366 times)

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,966
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
I went through this a year ago.

Told my employer's HR nazi I wouldn't comply with it.  When December rolled around and it was time to comply or lose health insurance, I found a new job.

Company floundered, tried to replace me, couldn't.

Six months later they called me and offered me $15k more and a promotion to come back.

I'm back now, but I got written declarations from the CEO that such a thing would never happen again (mandatory wellness reviews for insurance eligibility).
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 02:18:48 PM »
I'm "contract" and not eligible for insurance.

I don't know how that's going to work long term.  =|

My general plan is to "shrug" either completely or part-time (which I'm down to right now for a while).
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 02:29:57 PM »
I think there is going to be a lot of shocked people when obamacare is fully implemented- especially those who expected privacy, low costs, and adequate health care.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2013, 03:53:18 PM »
I think there is going to be a lot of shocked people when obamacare is fully implemented- especially those who expected privacy, low costs, and adequate health care.


I guess I won't be shocked since I've always expected exactly the opposite.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

SteveS

  • The Voice of Reason
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,224
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2013, 07:00:35 PM »
I guess I won't be shocked since I've always expected exactly the opposite.

Despite my jobs getting better, I have seen my insurance get crappier and crappier.  I fully expect it to get worse, with all sorts of cost cutting measures. 
Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate mother****er.

charby

  • Necromancer
  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29,295
  • APS's Resident Sikh/Muslim
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2013, 07:23:48 PM »
No one made you work for company XYZ, if they want certain things as condition of employment you, can leave or meet those terms to stay.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

Team 444: Member# 536

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 07:42:36 PM »
Coverage is going up here as well - I'm now paying 81 dollars a month for dental, vision, alternative medicine, and major medical. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »
Coverage is going up here as well - I'm now paying 81 dollars a month for dental, vision, alternative medicine, and major medical. 


and who pays the rest?  or is it magic money?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2013, 09:07:12 PM »

and who pays the rest?  or is it magic money?

It's insurance - it gets paid by the pool.

The costs are low enough that 81 is all they have to bill me - some older folks pay a lot more (even 200 if you have heart disease)
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Lee

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,181
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 09:40:33 PM »
The company I work for has had a voluntary wellness plan for years. They used to push it pretty hard and offer a small discount on insurance. I looked at the registration form and it asks you to enter all the medical and personal information they can't legally require you to give. I declined. I was really surprised by the number of normally cynical people I work with who gave that info up, for a pittance of a discount.
The CVS penalty for non compliance is much higher, but still only $11.50 a week.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2013, 09:58:21 PM »
It's insurance - it gets paid by the pool.

The costs are low enough that 81 is all they have to bill me - some older folks pay a lot more (even 200 if you have heart disease)

really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28Australia%29

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Fellowships/Australian-American-Health-Policy-Fellowships/The-Health-Care-System-and-Health-Policy-in-Australia.aspx


and why are the "idigenous" austrailians so marginalized?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia

Indigenous Australian health and wellbeing statistics indicate Aboriginal Australians are much less healthy than the rest of the Australian community. One leading indicator, infant mortality rates, including stillbirths and deaths in the first month of life, show Aboriginal child mortality is twice as high as non-indigenous child mortality.[17] Another revealing statistic is the 17-year gap in average life expectancy between indigenous and other Australians.

In some areas of Australia, particular the Torres Strait Islands, the prevalence of type 2 diabetes among Indigenous Australians is between 25 to 30%.[18] In Central Australia high incidences of type-2 diabetes has led to high chronic kidney disease rates amongst Aboriginals.[1
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,797
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2013, 11:20:14 PM »
Quote
No one made you work for company XYZ, if they want certain things as condition of employment you, can leave or meet those terms to stay.

Your analysis would be correct in spirit if companies weren't effectively forced to provide health insurance due to our wonderful government and tax code.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,836
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2013, 04:06:36 AM »
really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28Australia%29

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Fellowships/Australian-American-Health-Policy-Fellowships/The-Health-Care-System-and-Health-Policy-in-Australia.aspx


and why are the "idigenous" austrailians so marginalized?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Australia

Indigenous Australian health and wellbeing statistics indicate Aboriginal Australians are much less healthy than the rest of the Australian community. One leading indicator, infant mortality rates, including stillbirths and deaths in the first month of life, show Aboriginal child mortality is twice as high as non-indigenous child mortality.[17] Another revealing statistic is the 17-year gap in average life expectancy between indigenous and other Australians.

In some areas of Australia, particular the Torres Strait Islands, the prevalence of type 2 diabetes among Indigenous Australians is between 25 to 30%.[18] In Central Australia high incidences of type-2 diabetes has led to high chronic kidney disease rates amongst Aboriginals.[1

Yeah, really - I buy private insurance and use the private system.  I also pay for Medicare, but I pay much less because of the reduction in taxes I get from being in the private system.  My Medicare bill is a point and a half of my income, and for that I get basically reinsurance - if my private insurance fails for some reason, I use the public system.

Why are aboriginal people in bad health?  Record rates of gasoline huffing, drug and alcohol abuse, and in rural areas, homicide.  It's got nothing to do with the health system, which is available to them free of charge thanks to the taxpayer.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2013, 05:41:20 AM »
My company, one of CVS larger competitors, has had similar for several years now. Only difference is that instead of a premium discount we get money deposited into a savings account to offset our deductible. So if I get $500 this year for sharing the info, my first $500 of non-prescription medical expenses would be paid out from my saving account (directly from my insurance company) and apply to my deductible, then I am responsible for the balance of my deductible out of pocket, and then if I manage to meet my asinine deductible coinsurance rates kick in. If we don't use all of the savings it rolls automatically to next year, up to whatever arbitrary maximum they set. 

To do that though, you need to first go to a doctor or make an appointment with one of the pharmacists to get the numbers they want. Really, you primarily need them to test cholesterol and (assuming most people don't have a tester) fasting glucose. Realistically, half the people on the plan just make up all or most of the numbers to something that sounds believable.

Personally, I'd rather they just not charge me an asinine deductible in the first place.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2013, 09:42:52 AM »
Quote
To do that though, you need to first go to a doctor ...

1. Require everyone to buy insurance

2. Require you to get specific tests/care in order to buy insurance.


Anything wrong with that?  :facepalm:


This will not end well.  I'm guessing that my health will not be improved by the outcome.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 10:26:06 AM »
Here's the thing. It's a false argument to say America has a free market healthcare system, and Australia a socialist one. Both countries have socialist healthcare systems, HOWEVER Australia also has a true free market one alongside as well. And I'm talking separate private vs .gov hospitals, doctors, everything. So of course Australia is better. They have a half private system. We have a pretend free market system that gets crushed by .gov controls.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,966
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »
1. Require everyone to buy insurance

2. Require you to get specific tests/care in order to buy insurance.


Anything wrong with that?  :facepalm:


This will not end well.  I'm guessing that my health will not be improved by the outcome.

If you're going to allow such a monstrosity as "insurance" in the first place, you have to be able to qualify whether an insuree rates higher or lower than average risk, and to what degree.

16 year old males in new Mustangs pay more for car insurance than married 37 year old females with 2 kids in an 8 year old Dodge Caravan. 

A 275 pound diabetic with high blood pressure and a smoking habit... realistically should be about as insurable as a chronic drunk driver with a $150,000 history of vehicle and property damage along with a couple of vehicular homicides under his belt.  But failing the clear logic of insurers being able to exclude guaranteed bad investments, that 275 pound diabetic damned well better pay more than a 200 pound hobbyist athlete that doesn't smoke.

If we're going the socialist route with medicine (as it appears we are)... I'd be okay with compulsory gym attendance and workout routines for people over certain body fat indices, over a certain blood pressure, smokers and so on.  If they want "free" insurance, that is.  And immediate ineligibility for coverage when they stop attending, or monthly biometrics indicate they are somehow lying about attending or participating.  Otherwise they can continue on their self destructive path without stealing from my wallet.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2013, 10:59:47 AM »
Insurance is a monstrosity? Even when entered into voluntarily? I'm dying to know what your rational there is. Pooling resources to prepare for catastrophic events erodes that Rugged Individualism that's so important in Anarchotopia?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,966
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2013, 11:11:38 AM »
Insurance is a monstrosity? Even when entered into voluntarily? I'm dying to know what your rational there is. Pooling resources to prepare for catastrophic events erodes that Rugged Individualism that's so important in Anarchotopia?

Insurance is supposed to be a free market capitalistic voluntary buffering of risk based on an assessment of the insured element's potential for failure.

Medical insurance does not live up to that.  Way too much entitlement, and people who are drains on the insurance pool never get into the insurance pool during their healthy years, because they HAVE no healthy years.  So there's nothing to offset their unhealthy years except the assumption that lumping enough people like me into pools with people like the 275 pound diabetic I described above, will buffer the risk.

That diabetic is a guaranteed money loser even if you charged $1000 a month premiums, if evaluated under the same conditions as home owner's insurance, flood insurance, or car insurance.  Guaranteed loss on investment.

But, find enough rubes to shovel into the same policy (or compel enough healthy people to get in the same policy), and you wind up charging a bunch of healthy people $500 a month for health insurance along with that diabetic.  And the diabetic consumes $4000 a month in care for the rest of his life.

Medical insurance is just another form of "from those according to their ability, to those according to their need."  There's no compelling the high risk 16 year old driver to get into a 1962 AMC Gremlin and liability-only insurance in the medical insurance world, due to cost.  Instead, the 16 year old pays $100 a month for insurance in his new V8 muscle car and the 37 year old soccer mom also pays the same amount.

Economics are entirely divorced from medical insurance.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 11:48:43 AM »
I'm not saying that insurance companies shouldn't charge based on risk.

I'm saying that I shouldn't be forced to buy "health" insurance and therefore forced into "treatment" that I do not want.

I haven't been to an MD in over a decade, except for when I hurt my arm coming off a horse, and that was a total waste of time and money because in spite of everything the medical profession was able to do, my arm finally got better all by itself  :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2013, 12:51:58 PM »
Quote
If we're going the socialist route with medicine (as it appears we are)... I'd be okay with compulsory gym attendance and workout routines for people over certain body fat indices, over a certain blood pressure, smokers and so on.  If they want "free" insurance, that is.  And immediate ineligibility for coverage when they stop attending, or monthly biometrics indicate they are somehow lying about attending or participating.  Otherwise they can continue on their self destructive path without stealing from my wallet.

You are completely right.
However, you can't depend on socialists to make wise or even logical choices.
Its more likely that premiums will be the same for a 22 year old athlete and a 60 year old diabetic with HIV. Worse, if the 60 year old in that example has several preference points gained by his race/sexual proclivities/political affiliations, where the 22 year old has not, the 60 year old is going to get a much higher level of health care.
Remember, the health care decisions of 350 million people are going to be made by a handful of political appointees.

I work with an immigrant from eastern europe who lived under communism followed by socialism before coming the America. We were talking one day about obamacare and he was seriously pissed about it. He had experiences with abuses, corruptions, and unintended consequences that few if any Americans have even considered.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2013, 01:34:42 PM »
Quote
Its more likely that premiums will be the same for a 22 year old athlete and a 60 year old diabetic with HIV. Worse, if the 60 year old in that example has several preference points gained by his race/sexual proclivities/political affiliations, where the 22 year old has not, the 60 year old is going to get a much higher level of health care.

What about a skinny, straight, married 60 year old versus a gay 22 year old that drinks, partys, and has unprotected sex with multiple partners  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: And now, telling you to go to the doctor
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2013, 02:15:54 PM »
Quote
What about a skinny, straight, married 60 year old versus a gay 22 year old that drinks, partys, and has unprotected sex with multiple partners

You'' be too busy working to pay for said 22 year old to have time to go to the doctor yourself.
Back to work, serf.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama