Undercover officers arrange sting on CCW permit class

[tokugawa]

So instead of being outraged at the entrapment and infringement of our rights, we are obsequious serfs promising to do better next time.

 We are not the men our forefather were- they would be ashamed of us.
 

 
 

[brimic]

So instead of being outraged at the entrapment and infringement of our rights, we are obsequious serfs promising to do better next time.

 We are not the men our forefather were- they would be ashamed of us.

God bless you. You get it.

[Brad Johnson]

So you both are okay with an intentional act that negatively impacts not only the instructor's students, but also general gun owners' ability to successfully retain and possibly recover the portion of our 2A rights we've already lost to regulation?

Brad

[Tallpine]

So you both are okay with an intentional act that negatively impacts not only the instructor's students, but also general gun owners' ability to successfully retain and possibly recover the portion of our 2A rights we've already lost to regulation?

Brad

So all these people that had less than 8 hours of training have been out shooting off their guns in main street on saturday night 

[Brad Johnson]

So all these people that had less than 8 hours of training have been out shooting off their guns in main street on saturday night 

Seperate issue, one of agreeing with him in principal (which I do, by the way).

The issue at hand is condoning overt and intentional stupidity that can, and likely will, have a directly negative effect on hundreds - possibly thousands - of people (every person who's taken his class), and a related negative effect on tens of millions (gun owners who now have to content with yet another "look at what this eeeeevilll gun guy did..." story for the press and anti-gun politicians).

Agreeing with him in principal does not change the real-world negative impact of his actions.  No amount of rightous indignation will change it.  Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Brad

[Balog]

I can only imagine the frothy indignation some folks in this thread would have had to the Boston Tea Party (or Rosa Parks, or etc etc).

[Perd Hapley]

This was no Tea Party, and he ain't Rosa Parks. This guy was just skirting the law, hoping to go unnoticed.

If you want a gun-toting Rosa Parks, look for her to open carry on Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Marnoot]

This was no Tea Party, and he ain't Rosa Parks. This guy was just skirting the law, hoping to go unnoticed.

This. A modern "tea party" would include open defiance. This guy was just violating the law because he didn't want to spend more hours teaching the class, there was no noble "This law is unjust and I refuse to comply!" here.

[Tallpine]

Seperate issue, one of agreeing with him in principal (which I do, by the way).

The issue at hand is condoning overt and intentional stupidity that can, and likely will, have a directly negative effect on hundreds - possibly thousands - of people (every person who's taken his class), and a related negative effect on tens of millions (gun owners who now have to content with yet another "look at what this eeeeevilll gun guy did..." story for the press and anti-gun politicians).

Agreeing with him in principal does not change the real-world negative impact of his actions.  No amount of rightous indignation will change it.  Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Brad

Make lemonade 

[lupinus]

This. A modern "tea party" would include open defiance. This guy was just violating the law because he didn't want to spend more hours teaching the class, there was no noble "This law is unjust and I refuse to comply!" here.

Agreed.

Open defiance is open defiance. This dude just wanted to get paid for eight hours of work and mill out certification forms as quickly as possible.

I sure as hell don't like mandatory training in the first place, let alone eight hours worth. But I don't agree with what this moron did either.

[Perd Hapley]

And how much upside is there to what he did? If he wasn't caught, he would have saved some people some time and money (most classes I've seen cost more than $80, depending on who provides the hardware).

On the negative side, the article says police are going to be dropping in on more CCW classes now.

Not much of a trade-off there.

[Hawkmoon]

So instead of being outraged at the entrapment and infringement of our rights, we are obsequious serfs promising to do better next time.

What "entrapment"?

The guy was teaching a class that is legally mandated to run eight hours, and he wrapped it up in three hours. No police sting enticed him to do that -- he did it all of his own accord and volition.

[seeker_two]

This was no Tea Party, and he ain't Rosa Parks. This guy was just skirting the law, hoping to go unnoticed.

So.....more like Harriet Tubman & the Underground Railroad.....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

So.....more like Harriet Tubman & the Underground Railroad.....

hariet tubman didn't mess over the folks she was helping.  or charge them then commit fraud that left them hanging.   the only place hes a hero is on the internet

[lupinus]

So.....more like Harriet Tubman & the Underground Railroad.....

More like a coyote that takes your money and drops you in the middle of the desert.

Guy charged for the mandated eight hour class, did it the way he felt was quickest, and left them hanging. Quite possibly putting their permits in jeopardy.

[roo_ster]

This. A modern "tea party" would include open defiance. This guy was just violating the law because he didn't want to spend more hours teaching the class, there was no noble "This law is unjust and I refuse to comply!" here.

BTP participants were in disguise.

Dude was not wise, but I am not going to go apey over it.  Same way I don't go apey over folks cutting/styling hair without a state cert.

The state could have easily just told him to knock it off since they were on to his shenanigans and likely it would have ended right there when he was hit with the cluebat.

[Brad Johnson]

Dude was not wise, but I am not going to go apey over it.  Same way I don't go apey over folks cutting/styling hair without a state cert.

You should.  Dumb crap like this directly undermines pro-2A efforts in a very public and far-reaching way. 

And to even ATTEMPT to analogize a constitutional issue to a haircut is, well... I won't say because the entire statement would be cut out by the expletive filters. 

Brad

[SteveS]

What "entrapment"?

The guy was teaching a class that is legally mandated to run eight hours, and he wrapped it up in three hours. No police sting enticed him to do that -- he did it all of his own accord and volition.

Beat me to it.  Not entrapment by any stretch of the definition.

There have been a few arrests here, but from what I can tell, most of these classes are ignored.

[Marnoot]

BTP participants were in disguise.

It was still open defiance in that they wanted what was done to be known. The act was open defiance, even if the participants were disguised. This guy was not trying to make any public protest. He was just being a lazy sack. Lazy sack != civil disobedience.

[roo_ster]

You should.  Dumb crap like this directly undermines pro-2A efforts in a very public and far-reaching way. 

And to even ATTEMPT to analogize a constitutional issue to a haircut is, well... I won't say because the entire statement would be cut out by the expletive filters. 

Brad

Some folk think making a living is kinda important.  Hard to buy gunz with no money.  Or exercise any liberty.  Might be, that the right to make a living trumps RKBA, importance wise.

[roo_ster]

It was still open defiance in that they wanted what was done to be known. The act was open defiance, even if the participants were disguised. This guy was not trying to make any public protest. He was just being a lazy sack. Lazy sack != civil disobedience.

But destruction of another man's property is.

[Hawkmoon]

Some folk think making a living is kinda important.  Hard to buy gunz with no money.  Or exercise any liberty.  Might be, that the right to make a living trumps RKBA, importance wise.

Huh?

How does a "right" to make a living (a "right" not included in the Bill of Rights, by the way) in any way apply to the case under discussion, which boils down to fraud on the part of the instructor?

[Brad Johnson]

But destruction of another man's property is.

And knowingly and willingly screwing hundreds, possibly thousands, of people who's only wrongdoing was good-faith attendance of his class is... ??

(hint: It's called theft, both of their time and money.  In large enough $ amounts in can be prosecuted as a felony.  In other words this guy could face serious felony theft charges if enough of his students have their CHL's yanked.  In many states CHL fees are non-refundable.  Add in the money value of time for re-taking the class and it only takes a couple students' lost CHLs to top the felony limit.)

Brad

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Idiot law. I've seen classes like that... not nearly that short, but maybe 2 hours short of the total time. Yeah, he broke the law and should've known better, but I wouldn't have any personal objection.

I'm astonished that the police have absolutely nothing better to do with their time than hassle a frigging CCW instructor. Are there no missing children, stolen property, unsolved murders to deal with?

[Perd Hapley]

BTP participants were in disguise.

Of course. And you forgot to mention that they did it undercover of darkness.

But that's irrelevant for our purposes. The hosts of the Tea Party were not trying to get around the law, while pretending to be in compliance. They were sending a message that the law would not be complied with. Far different than what this instructor was doing.