Author Topic: Rudely Displaying a Firearm  (Read 21477 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2013, 11:06:30 AM »
Nobody has yet found a law that covers disarming a man open carrying a rifle.  So less didn't know the law and more making it up as they go.

Dunno. generally the courts have upheld that you don't even have to stop and talk to cops, much less give them your property, unless they are investigating a crime.  A man walking down the (dirt) road with an slung AR would be evidence of what crime in texas exactly?

CSAD has decided he is guilty of being stupid, so he will continue to grasp at straws to prove thus.

Context CSD.

411.207 applies to the concealed handgun that is being carried by the license holder. The authority to disk doesn't apple to anything you might happen to have on you. That's why its a subsection of the CHL law.

This. 
JD

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roo_ster

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2013, 11:13:31 AM »
Joe Biden approves this message.

Heh.

I guess my point is that I would not be at all surprised or worried, given that Texas has a severe feral hog problem and you can take them just about any possible manner at any time.  To include using AR15 rifles(1) along a dirt road.  Roadsides/ditches, and fence lines are usually higher probability locations to find some sorts of game.



(1) One ranch I know prefers folks use an AR15 in 5.56 to other weapons.  They insist on head/ear shots and do not want a larger caliber slug going downrange.
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roo_ster

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2013, 11:20:35 AM »
Roo_ster (or anyone else who knows)...is the feral hog situation bad enough that you would want a rifle with you for protection of yourself/you son if you were on a hike?  Reason I ask is that it struck me as kind of odd that this man and his son were on a hike for a Scout requirement - been there, done that with the oldest, and will be doing it again in the near future with the youngest - and he was packing so much gear. When I did the hike with my son, I legally CCW'd.  Carried a day pack with some basic hiking stuff like we all would...fire starter, first aid, snacks, water, etc. This was five miles in the park, using a map and compass, and also was an opportunity to spot and identify 10 native animals, either the actual animal or evidence of the animal (tracks, scat, etc.).  For a fun hike with my son, I don't know that I would choose to haul all of that crap with me, and it struck me as odd that he did.  If the pig problem is that bad, then I guess that would explain not only the rifle, but the method of carry.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2013, 11:26:18 AM »
Hes not charged under that statute. His charge is rooted in as jamis observed being stupid. Ie believing he did not have to give up the ar during his encounter. The ability cops have to require that is pretty well rooted. Texas goes so far ad to spell it out that even a "certified good guy" has to comply.
I believe some of you are attempting to apply the ruling "mere presence of a firearm does not in and of itself constitute probable cause for a stop" to this event. I believe both you and the sgt are mistaken and are overlooking the rest of that ruling.

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2013, 11:27:59 AM »
What ruling?  TX CHL statute applies only to CHL holders and only addresses concealed handguns.  It is a very specific subset of texas penal code.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »
What ruling?  TX CHL statute applies only to CHL holders and only addresses concealed handguns.  It is a very specific subset of texas penal code.
there was a ruling that cops can't use the mere sight of a gun as an excuse for a stop. Its been good for getting folks in trouble as they "assert their right" on the side of the road. Its often not working as well as it does in their imagination

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2013, 11:35:04 AM »
Roo_ster (or anyone else who knows)...is the feral hog situation bad enough that you would want a rifle with you for protection of yourself/you son if you were on a hike?  Reason I ask is that it struck me as kind of odd that this man and his son were on a hike for a Scout requirement - been there, done that with the oldest, and will be doing it again in the near future with the youngest - and he was packing so much gear. When I did the hike with my son, I legally CCW'd.  Carried a day pack with some basic hiking stuff like we all would...fire starter, first aid, snacks, water, etc. This was five miles in the park, using a map and compass, and also was an opportunity to spot and identify 10 native animals, either the actual animal or evidence of the animal (tracks, scat, etc.).  For a fun hike with my son, I don't know that I would choose to haul all of that crap with me, and it struck me as odd that he did.  If the pig problem is that bad, then I guess that would explain not only the rifle, but the method of carry.

When I go for walks with the dogs around here, I usually carry a 30-30 along with my six gun.  Not so much for protection as for taking care of varmits like coyotes.  Of course, I don't walk along the road with the dogs, and the only one that I'm likely to meet is the landowner on the neighboring ranch.  He is always armed when I meet him, too.  He likes that I kill porcupines and coyotes, etc on his place.

An AR and cammies is a little much for me, but then I am not the fashion police  :lol:
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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2013, 11:36:22 AM »
there was a ruling that cops can't use the mere sight of a gun as an excuse for a stop. Its been good for getting folks in trouble as they "assert their right" on the side of the road. Its often not working as well as it does in their imagination

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So the cops are defying the law and the courts  ;/
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zxcvbob

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2013, 11:44:49 AM »
So the cops are defying the law and the courts  ;/

In case you haven't noticed, they can do that.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2013, 02:48:46 PM »
there was a ruling that cops can't use the mere sight of a gun as an excuse for a stop. Its been good for getting folks in trouble as they "assert their right" on the side of the road. Its often not working as well as it does in their imagination

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Apples and oranges to boot.  This ruling as you're describing it has nothing to do with the authority to disarm a CHL holder under TPC and only refers to a concealed weapon.

Really what you're asserting is that its right just because the cops say so, regardless of what case law nor Texas penal codes assert.  So being abused by possibly corrupt, or power hungry, or just having a *expletive deleted*ing bad day, police on the side of the road is okay with you, just because they are the police.   Note, that's not a question.  It's a rhetorical statement.
JD

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Tallpine

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2013, 04:04:36 PM »
Riddle me this:

How much sense does it make for a cop to walk up to somebody with a rifle and ask him to hand it over because you think he might be dangerous  ???

If the guy was dangersous, he would have already shot the cop.

If the cop thought he was dangerous, he would have stayed back and called for the cavalry.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2013, 04:27:59 PM »
Apples and oranges to boot.  This ruling as you're describing it has nothing to do with the authority to disarm a CHL holder under TPC and only refers to a concealed weapon.

Really what you're asserting is that its right just because the cops say so, regardless of what case law nor Texas penal codes assert.  So being abused by possibly corrupt, or power hungry, or just having a *expletive deleted* bad day, police on the side of the road is okay with you, just because they are the police.   Note, that's not a question.  It's a rhetorical statement.

have you read the ruling?
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=122005

some of the case law?
http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-judge-rules-concealed-carry-is-probable-cause-of-criminal-activity
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2013, 04:44:53 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2013, 05:55:24 PM »
Riddle me this:

How much sense does it make for a cop to walk up to somebody with a rifle and ask him to hand it over because you think he might be dangerous  ???

If the guy was dangersous, he would have already shot the cop.

If the cop thought he was dangerous, he would have stayed back and called for the cavalry.

Indeed.

Se the same with SWAT.
Regards,

roo_ster

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dogmush

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2013, 06:05:31 PM »
I can't believe I'm bothering with this again, but here goes:

11th v montague and the constitution findlaw link refer to Terry stops.  As all good libertarian's know a Terry stop require the LEO to be able to articulate a reasonable suspicion of a crime.  The 11th goes on to say:

Quote
The Fourth Amendment, however, does not prohibit a police officer from seizing a suspect for a brief, investigatory stop where the officer has a reasonable suspicion that the suspect was involved in, or is about to be involved in, criminal activity.
(bolding mine)

indeed your same link points out that:
Quote
On the other hand, if a state views the absence of a permit as an element of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm or concealed weapon, then questions arise as to whether mere possession of a firearm, without some other articulable manifestations of criminal conduct, will justify an investigatory detention.

The Federal judge in the MARTA case said:
Quote
possession of a firearms license is an affirmative defense to, not an element of, the crimes of boarding [MARTA] with a concealed weapon and carrying a concealed weapon."
Which is why the LEO in question (Who saw the defendant conceal a weapon) was justified to detain him and the weapon.  Basicly the RAS was "I saaw him concealing a weapon, that's a crime" to which the CCW'r had do answer "with, yep, but here's my permit".

None of all those rapidfire links applies here because:

(everyone say it with me now)

OPEN CARRY OF A LONG GUN IS LEGAL IN TEXAS.

The LEO's in this case can not articulate (or at least haven't bothered to) suspicion of any crime.  So the Terry stop was not legal.  And since the stop itself was not legal none of those wonderful  ;/ officer safety caveats allow them to take his stuff.  They were investigating a non-crime.  This severely limits their [legal] powers both to detain the MSG, and to confiscate, however briefly, his crap.

Since open carry is legal this is the exact same thing as a cop stopping and frisking a black guy in a nice 'hood.  Harassing a citizen because they don't approve of his legal behavior.  And that particular case law has been settled for some time.

So, AGAIN I ask you:  What *crime* do you think this MSG was committing prior to the police stopping him*.  Because without that original RAS it doesn't matter how much of an ass he was after they stopped him, they shouldn't have even stopped him.

*I remind you that several courts have already confirmed that if openly possessing a firearm is otherwise legal where someone is simply MWAG doesn't rise to the level of a Terry stop.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2013, 06:27:24 PM »
He does not have to ne commiting a crime for them to check him out. And mwag , acting suspiciously, etc. Will fly. The key stupid moment is the sgt's delusion, one apparently shared by many, is that the cop needs to articulate his reason to you/him on the side of the road. That moment happens in front of the man in the lobg black dress. The sgt is a good poster child for why it doesn't work. Heck if he came walkies down my street i'd look at him funny. Probably not call cops but i'd say hi to him and kid and depending on how he acted i'd reassess calling cops. Lotts folks might just call. Folks right nervous lately. I gotta get off the phone to look at all of the case you cited. Folk have tendancy to cliff note legal stuff. They often wear the chrome bracelets when they do

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2013, 06:35:02 PM »
Dude really?  You're taking a square peg and desperately trying to ram it into a round hole.  If your assertion is that he was dis-armed because he was suspected of a crime, that is different from the authority of an officer to dis-armed a CHL holder of his concealed weapon under Texas penal code.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2013, 07:06:42 PM »
The cop could disarm him or anyone else under those circumstances. Sorry i even brought up the chl law. I was using it to point out that texas allowed by code disarming. I don't think sgt is a bad guy or dangerous  just screwed. Hoist by his own petard.

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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zxcvbob

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2013, 09:40:48 PM »
He's saying the cop can come up with the RAS retroactively, *after* the encounter.  He's supposed to have RAS, but Terry never says he has to actually articulate it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2013, 09:44:35 PM »
He's saying the cop can come up with the RAS retroactively, *after* the encounter.  He's supposed to have RAS, but Terry never says he has to actually articulate it.


yea  its interesting, in a sad way, to see some one ranting like that. the moreso when they chose to post video and are delusional enough to think it helps them
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2013, 05:29:48 AM »
Riddle me this:

How much sense does it make for a cop to walk up to somebody with a rifle and ask him to hand it over because you think he might be dangerous  ???

If the guy was dangersous, he would have already shot the cop.

If the cop thought he was dangerous, he would have stayed back and called for the cavalry.

Curse you, logic!

Yeah, the harsh truth is that if Sgt. Grisham had nefarious intent the cop would have never made it out of the damned cruiser, let alone closed to touching distance.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2013, 06:26:03 AM »
Curse you, logic!

Yeah, the harsh truth is that if Sgt. Grisham had nefarious intent the cop would have never made it out of the damned cruiser, let alone closed to touching distance.

Ahhh so then logically since the cop wasn't gunned down ad he approached he shoulda been assured about the sgt. Just kept on going and not bothered him at all?

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2013, 09:56:18 AM »
Ahhh so then logically since the cop wasn't gunned down ad he approached he shoulda been assured about the sgt. Just kept on going and not bothered him at all?

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A little civility goes a long way on both sides  ;)
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2013, 10:01:38 AM »
Sadly i suspect thats the core of this event. Rude and testosterone are bad mix

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Rudely Displaying a Firearm
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2013, 10:11:06 AM »
Both of the two posts above this from Tallpine and CSD should be engraved on a stone tablet somewhere.  Words to live by.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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