Nevada's creative solution to mental health problems

[Scout26]

Go Greyhound !!!!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/17/nevada-buses-mentally-ill/2091727/

[lee n. field]

The state's actions came under scrutiny in February after 48-year-old James Flavy Coy Brown, who is diagnosed with schizophrenia, turned up at a Sacramento homeless shelter confused and suicidal. He had been to the California capital and knew no one.

Horrible experience.

[Tallpine]

If we could only put Obama back on a bus to Kenya 

[roo_ster]

We pay billions for trash of all colors of the rainbow to breed and crap out their offspring on the taxpayers' dime.  And then we pay to feed, clothe, educate, and provide medical care for the whole screwed-up pathetic excuse for a "family." 

But we kick the mentally ill to the curb. 

Frankly, we need to slash welfare and disability benefits by 50% to 75% and use the money to re-institutionalize our severely mentally ill.

Yes, I am talking big, honking mental institutions in the middle of BFE with extensive grounds so those inmates able to may cultivate their own chow.  And fences.  And other occupations for those who may manage to hold it together for a few hours at a time.

Most/many of the habitual bums are never, ever going to be able to function in society.  Either they started out nuts or made themselves that way via drugs & alcohol.  I do not think we are saving any money by arresting them when they go nuts, misbehave, and hurt sane folk or build "homeless" shelters where they scare off the merely down on their luck with the full-on kray-zeee.

[ArfinGreebly]

The trouble with mental institutions is that they are run by psychiatrists.  These guys have no idea how to make life better for people, how to help people attain sanity, or what sanity even is.

All they know is how to label "disorders" and "syndromes" and how to dispense chemistry to keep patients quiet.  And, after all, as far as society is concerned, "quiet" is an acceptable solution.  Quiet misery and suffering is fine, as long as it stays quiet -- oh, and out of view as well.

The abuses seen and documented in mental institutions have been epic.

If you're going to institutionalize the "mentally ill," putting that trust in the hands of people who can't define sanity is a huge mistake.

[HankB]

Many years ago when I was still a kid, my mother's cousins ran a hotel in the Winterhaven, FL area.

They told us that local businessmen in the Chamber of Commerce used to have fund raisers to provide bus tickets - ONE WAY bus tickets - to bums (what are now called "homeless") sending them up north, hopefully never to be seen again locally.

Chicago and New York were favorite destinations.

[coppertales]

They elect them to congress?  chris3

[MicroBalrog]

e.

Most/many of the habitual bums are never, ever going to be able to function in society. 

And your solution is to imprison them at gunpoint because they're unable to 'function in society'?

Last I checked the standard was 'a danger to himself or others'. Do you want to change that?

[lee n. field]

Many years ago when I was still a kid, my mother's cousins ran a hotel in the Winterhaven, FL area.

They told us that local businessmen in the Chamber of Commerce used to have fund raisers to provide bus tickets - ONE WAY bus tickets - to bums (what are now called "homeless") sending them up north, hopefully never to be seen again locally.

Chicago and New York were favorite destinations.

Only appropriate.  Chicago is shipping welfare housing people "downstate". 

[Gowen]

For years california prisons were giving prisoners one way tickets to Reno when they got out of jail.  Just doing our part to contribute to SF insanity.  I guess turn about is fair play. 

[roo_ster]

And your solution is to imprison them at gunpoint because they're unable to 'function in society'?

Last I checked the standard was 'a danger to himself or others'. Do you want to change that?

They are about the same thing, barring megabucks on the scale of Howard Hughes.

[MicroBalrog]

They are about the same thing, barring megabucks on the scale of Howard Hughes.

No, absolutely not.

"Living in utter poverty because you can't or won't hold down a job" is not the same as "giggling in the corner and slicing your arms open with straight razors."

[vaskidmark]

"Dumping" has been going on since the day after the first prison for the mentally defective was opened.  Before that the crazys were just encouraged at spearpoint to keep shiffling towards the next hill/valley.

In the mid-70's when SCOTUS pretty much emptied out all the back wards of mental health facilities there was a rush to figure out where to send folks and what to do with them once they got there.  Seeing as how all that was being done by the .gov no plan was ever realized and the best that was dreamed up was some piddling grants to create residential group homes in the middle of suburban subdivisions where there was no public transportation to get the crazies to/from the MH clinic located clear across the county.  When the crazies wandered away from the group homes but did not get locked up in jail right away the public welfare system partnered with private charities (Traveller's Aide being the biggest) to "assist" these newly-homeless to get to family/friends - via a bus ticket two stops on down the line (figuring one stop was too close and they might walk back).

Dumping the chronically mentally ill and the medically indigent is the worst symptom of society abrogating charity to be a function of .gov.  Back in the "good old days" there were facilities like County Farms and charity hospitals where the sick were actually provided at least minimal care.  These places were not .gov facilities, but ran on the charitable contributions of the locals, or were operated by religious orders.  Sometimes things were a bit lean, but folks by and large kept the crazies and the cripples out of the intersections.  It was not until the Great Depression was winding down that .gov began taking tax dollars and using it to pay for what used to be charity.

Wasn't it Representative David Crockett (Whig, Tenn) who got his hindparts handed to him for duplicity in handing around The People's money?  http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html Too bad there was no YouTube or Twitter or blogs back then - imagine how things might have been different if The People had been roused to remind Congress that charity begins - and ends - at home and .gov has no business dipping into The People's wallet to give money away in their name.

Having walked completely around the barn, let me try and wrap things up.  "Dumping" is actually illegal when you dump in somebody else's yard.  The state that finds itself receiving Nevada's former patients can apply through HHS for Medicaid funds to be transferred from Nevada's "account" to that of the receiving state.  I do not recall that being done since the mid-70's but it should still be an available option.

stay safe.

[roo_ster]

No, absolutely not.

"Living in utter poverty because you can't or won't hold down a job" is not the same as "giggling in the corner and slicing your arms open with straight razors."

Starvation is covered under "danger to self."

[MicroBalrog]

Starvation is covered under "danger to self."

Living under bridges and eating crappy food - and indeed dumpster-diving is not 'starvation'.

You're just looking for an excuse to force people into the 9-to-5 at gunpoint.

[roo_ster]

Living under bridges and eating crappy food - and indeed dumpster-diving is not 'starvation'.

You're just looking for an excuse to force people into the 9-to-5 at gunpoint. to stop using publicly-accessible stairwells as toilets; sleeping on the sidewalk outside merchants, thus chasing off their customers; violating property rights by stealing to survive; hurting others when off their meds; wasting peace officers' time and tax dollars shuffling them off to jail; and the like.

Other than the part I fixed, you are right on target.

[MicroBalrog]

And all of these are already crimes, except for 'driving off customers'.

[SteveS]

Having walked completely around the barn, let me try and wrap things up.  "Dumping" is actually illegal when you dump in somebody else's yard.  The state that finds itself receiving Nevada's former patients can apply through HHS for Medicaid funds to be transferred from Nevada's "account" to that of the receiving state.  I do not recall that being done since the mid-70's but it should still be an available option.

stay safe.

The agency I worked for got reimbursed this way back in the 90's when we got some out of state clients. 

[roo_ster]

And all of these are already crimes, except for 'driving off customers'.

Yes, but if the cause of the criminality is chronic mental illness, stuffing them into prison is the wrong answer.

And the "driving off customers" thing is no joke.  There are some towns, which do not vigorously police vagrancy, where the downtown evening and nightlife is dead due mostly to vagrants making it impossible for merchants to stay open and driving off folks.

[Poper]

If you're going to institutionalize the "mentally ill," putting that trust in the hands of people who can't define sanity is a huge mistake.

You are correct, Arfin.  However, I don't think the government is really the answer either.  There is little the government has touched that hasn't been completely screwed up.  Just look what DOE done to education.

Poper

[MicroBalrog]

Yes, but if the cause of the criminality is chronic mental illness, stuffing them into prison is the wrong answer.

Theefore your solution is to stuff them into prison pre-emptively?

And the "driving off customers" thing is no joke.  There are some towns, which do not vigorously police vagrancy, where the downtown evening and nightlife is dead due mostly to vagrants making it impossible for merchants to stay open and driving off folks.

I do not agree that you have some 'right' to a high value of your store, or to income, which you get to secure by using police violence.

[AZRedhawk44]

Let me see if I've got this straight:

1. Indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues exist.
2. They are getting free treatment.
3. The basis of this free treatment is to protect the productive people in society from the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues.
4. That society decides it does not want to be on the hook perpetually for this indigent, homeless, jobless population with mental health issues.
5. They provide transportation and modest travel expenses to facilitate the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues to move on if they want to.
6. They do not use force at the barrel of a gun to compel the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues to leave against their will.
7. Nothing stops these indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues from NOT boarding the Greyhound and instead shuffling aimlessly around all zombie-like in Nevada rather than in California.  They just have an added option to go do it in a different State.  Heck, it could be a State where people can't shoot back when you shiv them with a pallet splinter, rather than Nevada where more people have guns.

TANSTAAFL.  Even for indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues.  Unless you're indigent, homeless, jobless with mental health issues in Nevada.  Then they'll give you a free lunch AND a free bus pass.

That's charity right there, folks.

[vaskidmark]

Let me see if I've got this straight:

1. Indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues exist.  Check!
2. They are getting free treatment.  Not all of them, and often not the ones most in need of treatment.
3. The basis of this free treatment is to protect the productive people in society from the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues.  I think that even when you strip all the platitudes and obfuscation and BS away that is not going to be a true statement.
4. That society decides it does not want to be on the hook perpetually for this indigent, homeless, jobless population with mental health issues.  Check!  Just as it dores not want to be perpetually on the hook for folks who make a career out of welfare.
5. They provide transportation and modest travel expenses to facilitate the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues to move on if they want to.  And often to those that do not want to.  They also make folks choose between the bus ticket or an alternative such as jail or being forcibly medicated in a MH hospital.  Even crazy people know how to pick the lesser of bad options.
6. They do not use force at the barrel of a gun to compel the indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues to leave against their will.  Then how to you get someone to get on the bus and ride out of town when they adamantly aver they do not wish to leave town?  The crazy folks may have delusions but the Tooth Bunny and Easter Fairy usually are not in their delusionss
7. Nothing stops these indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues from NOT boarding the Greyhound and instead shuffling aimlessly around all zombie-like in Nevada rather than in California.  They just have an added option to go do it in a different State.  Heck, it could be a State where people can't shoot back when you shiv them with a pallet splinter, rather than Nevada where more people have guns.See responses to #5 and #6 above.  Your argument seems to also fit into the notion that the good citizens of Watertown, MA had nothing preventing them from telling a dozen or so armed men they could not come in and rummage around looking for Suspect #2.  And yet those good people, who we should presume were not  indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues seemed rather reluctand to stand up and say "No, thanks all the same."  I would like a citation regarding the number of  indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues who have been shot after shiving someone with a pallet splinter.  You might also add a citation regarding the number of  indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues who have shived someone with a pallet splinter (or other weapon).

TANSTAAFL.  Even for indigent, homeless, jobless people with mental health issues.  Unless you're indigent, homeless, jobless with mental health issues in Nevada.  Then they'll give you a free lunch AND a free bus pass.

That's charity right there, folks.

I make it roughly 2 1/2 out of 7, but might go another 1/2 if pressed.

stay safe.

[Tallpine]

shuffling aimlessly around all zombie-like in Nevada rather than in California

The crazy folk shuffling aimlessly around all zombie-like in California would fit right in 

[roo_ster]

Theefore your solution is to stuff them into prison pre-emptively?

I do not agree that you have some 'right' to a high value of your store, or to income, which you get to secure by using police violence.

Have you actually dealt with the chronic homeless/vagrants?  Pre-emption has nothing to do with it.  More like cleaning up after their messes and crimes. 

Primary reason for gov't is to protect property rights.  Violence in securing them is legitimate.