Author Topic: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?  (Read 60432 times)

The Rabbi

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #125 on: August 18, 2006, 10:19:56 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Rabbi, please.  The man was as stone-dead as John Cleese's parrot.  Three days ater he was alive.  These are matters of fact, well-attested by history.  And you equate that to snake oil?

Luke 16.31
"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Big Furry Deal.  Check 2 Kings 4:8-37 on the prophet Elisha reviving the child.  A passage in the Talmud (I think Megilla) where one rabbi accidentally murders another one, prays, and the other one is revived.  Again, we have a principle that we do not rely on miracles.
The magicians in Egypt were able to replicate almost all the "miracles" performed by Moses.  We don't believe in them either.  The prophet Bilaam was able to perform miracles and communicate with G-d.  That doesn't make him worthy of anything, since he was wicked.
btw, what "history" attests to this?  You only have the Gospel account.  How many people actually saw him?  I think more people have seen Elvis or Czar Nicholas II since they died.  That doesn't make Elvis the messiah, just a hunka hunka burning love.
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Perd Hapley

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #126 on: August 18, 2006, 10:25:01 AM »
Why on earth does anyone need "independent verification" as if there were such a thing?  The New Testament accounts are quite solid enough on their own.  As I earlier implied, the people that had reason to know about this event were so convinced of His ressurection that they endured all manner of persecution and execution in order to preach it.
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The Rabbi

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #127 on: August 18, 2006, 10:26:55 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Why on earth does anyone need "independent verification" as if there were such a thing?  The New Testament accounts are quite solid enough on their own.  As I earlier implied, the people that had reason to know about this event were so convinced of His ressurection that they endured all manner of persecution and execution in order to preach it.
So did the Branch Davidians and the people in Jonestown.  Just because someone is convinced of something doesn't make it true.
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richyoung

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #128 on: August 18, 2006, 11:27:39 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
 Just because someone is convinced of something doesn't make it true.
Interesting.  So then just because one is "convinced" that Jesus is NOT who he says he is, doesn't make it true.  Also, just because someone is convinced of something, doesn't make it false, either.  We seem to have reached an impass:  if it hasn't been solved in 2000 years, it may remain a while longer.  Still, it boggles my Gentile mind that a member of the Hebrew nation woulf "prefer" (to misuse a term) to convert to the same religion that is lobbing Katusha's full of ball-bearings and TNT into its cities than the dominant religion of the one major ally and supporter of Israel. Either way, it is a matter of no practical consequence: I can't imagine any modern situation where Christians would be trying to forcibly convert anybody: no man comes unto the Father but that the Spirit move him.
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grampster

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #129 on: August 18, 2006, 11:43:25 AM »
Ah...is it true?  There is the rub...the bottom line.  Paul the Apostle once wrote that if Christ had not risen from the dead, then what he preached and believed was obviously futile and having no worth or value.  Yet he persisted, so he must have known something that convinced him.  I don't think he was a piker.  The same could be said of most of the apostles and early believers.  Their faith seems to have had an impact.  I once listened to a guy give a speech about Hinduism, and various other mystical "religions" including voodoo and the like.  He made a remark that stuck with me:  " The question is not whether a thing exists, but rather is it true."
Whether the written record of those times or even of the times prior to Jesus being accurate?  Well I have always thought that if there truly was a Supreme Being and He wanted a written and/or verbal record of His comings and goings, machinations and supernatural doings, then He certainly would be able to inspire those that He needed to do that chore to do it accurately.  If that were not so, then ALL of the books about his comings and goings etc. are ALL suspect, including Jewish books.  I've always held that God is not a trickster.  

For someone to ascribe myth to Christian scripture and tradition, harms his own argument regarding books and tradition he  holds to.   Just what is correct? There was a guy Josh something or another that wrote a book called Evidence That Demands a Verdict which originally set out to disprove the merits of the bible by using every standard of accuracy available regarding books, documents and traditions.  He was an atheist or an agnostic at best.  When he finished his work, which took many years, he convinced himself of that accuracy.

Your comment regarding Joseph Smith really isn't germain as Christians were warned about new gospels.  The Jews were looking for Messiah.

Again, faith is a matter of personal conviction.  Each of us has a mind with which to consider things as well as other senses to sample the stew we call life.   Then make a desision...or not.

Rabbi, I respect your faith and belief as well as your knowledge.   I have long admired the Jews and Israel and its storied history and persistance.   I can ask no more of you than to reciprocate.  But that decision is up to you.   Perhaps we can leave it at that.
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The Rabbi

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2006, 12:56:05 PM »
Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: The Rabbi
 Just because someone is convinced of something doesn't make it true.
Interesting.  So then just because one is "convinced" that Jesus is NOT who he says he is, doesn't make it true.  Also, just because someone is convinced of something, doesn't make it false, either.  We seem to have reached an impass:  if it hasn't been solved in 2000 years, it may remain a while longer.  Still, it boggles my Gentile mind that a member of the Hebrew nation woulf "prefer" (to misuse a term) to convert to the same religion that is lobbing Katusha's full of ball-bearings and TNT into its cities than the dominant religion of the one major ally and supporter of Israel. Either way, it is a matter of no practical consequence: I can't imagine any modern situation where Christians would be trying to forcibly convert anybody: no man comes unto the Father but that the Spirit move him.
Yes, RichYoung, conviction is no proof.  Proof requires other things, like logic and documentation.  Jesus wasn't the messiah because he failed to do all the things the messiah was/is supposed to do.  I don't think that bar Kochba, Shabtai Tzvi or the Lubavitcher rebbe were the messiah either, for exactly the same reason, even though many of their followers were convinced they were.  And those are just three of many many false messiahs.
I am sorry that your mind is boggled by the fact that Judaism reccognizes the monotheism of Islam and the pantheism of Christianity.  WHatever some of the adherents of those religions are doing or not doing is irrelevant to how the system itself is viewed.  Christians persecuted Jews far more throughout history than Muslims ever did.  But even that is irrelevant.
This is not an attack on individuals and their beliefs.  I get along with and have had better relations with devoted Christians than with atheists or non-practicing Jews.  In my experience religious people tend to respect the lifestyles of other religious people and have similar concerns.  That is a good basis for a working relationship.  Arguing tenets of one's faith is not.
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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2006, 01:02:11 PM »
But it seems often that its only one side that expects their faith to be unquestioned..and everyone else's, regardless of how they came to it, is open to criticism.

Not "getting" why Islam, as a religion, is less offensive to Jews than Christianity, is the best example. It's a flat out refusal to look at any viewpoint other than one's own as worthy of consideration. Constantly referring to the problems between Jews and Muslims isn't even part of the question. No one said Jews find Muslims less offensive than Christians..the statement was that the Jewish religion is less at odds with Islam than it is with Christianity. It has nothing to do with lobbing bombs, and everything to do with religious belief.

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« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2006, 01:03:44 PM »
Eh, yeah..what he said. Mostly.

Stand_watie

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« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2006, 08:26:07 PM »
Quote from: cordex
Quote
He claimed he was Messiah, so either he is a liar or was telling the truth.  Or was insane or was telling the truth.  Or he was truly a bad man, a demon, or was telling the truth.  He cannot be a good prophet, a good man, a good teacher, a good anything if he is not who he says he is.  Judaism, at the least, tolerates Christians and attempts to co-exist.
Did He really claim that, or did His followers make those claims after His death?
How would you know?
(Answer: The same way you "know" that there is only one God and Mohammed is his prophet or that when God was giving health tips to his chosen people he really meant cloven hoof and not un-cloven hoof ... because you choose to trust a given set of ancient documents and group of people who tell you what those documents really mean.)...
John 4

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24Gd is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."  25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."  26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Matthew 16

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"  14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."  15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living Gd." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven

b. Matthew 16:16 Or Messiah; also in verse 20

Luke 22

Jesus Before Pilate and Herod
 66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ,[d]" they said, "tell us."
   Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty Gd."70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of Gd?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."  71Then they said, "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips."

d. Luke 22:67 Or Messiah
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« Reply #134 on: August 19, 2006, 02:00:16 AM »
Luke 5:16 "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me.  Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' "

John 8:42 " Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Ezekiel 2:1 "And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee".

Act 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"

Perd Hapley

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #135 on: August 19, 2006, 04:11:18 AM »
Wow, Barbara.  Thousands of trinitarian Christian scholars who were smarter and better versed in the scriptures than either of us must have overlooked those verses for two thousand years.  rolleyes


Quote from: Barbara
Not "getting" why Islam, as a religion, is less offensive to Jews than Christianity, is the best example. It's a flat out refusal to look at any viewpoint other than one's own as worthy of consideration.
Hold on now, maybe some people just honestly don't understand it.


Quote from: The Rabbi
I am sorry that your mind is boggled by the fact that Judaism reccognizes the monotheism of Islam and the pantheism of Christianity.
Pantheism?  The charges of polytheism or idolatry I can understand, but pantheism is a horse of a different color.  You misspoke, perhaps?


Stand_watie,
I think cordex's point was that some of Jesus's claims in the Gospel may have been made up after his death and added to the Gospels.  I don't agree with that, but pasting Bible verses isn't an argument, in this case.
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Perd Hapley

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #136 on: August 19, 2006, 05:04:56 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: fistful
 As I earlier implied, the people that had reason to know about this event were so convinced of His ressurection that they endured all manner of persecution and execution in order to preach it.
So did the Branch Davidians and the people in Jonestown.  Just because someone is convinced of something doesn't make it true.
I said, "people that had reason to know about this event".  I was talking about knowledge of a verifiable/falsifiable fact.  Whether or not a person is physically, literally alive can be known, proven or disproven.*  I don't know much about these two cults you mention, but I doubt their followers were in a position to know whether Koresh or Jones were God/Messiah, what-have-you.  

In the same way, modern jihadis are not in a position to know whether the Koran is a divinely-inspired book that orders them to kill children and other civilians.  This is a major difference between bin Laden and Joshua.  Joshua, after forty years with Moses, could have no doubt that the command to kill every man, woman, child and animal of the enemy was directly from the God that had the right to make such decisions.  What proof hath bin Laden?  


Quote from: The Rabbi
Check 2 Kings 4:8-37 on the prophet Elisha reviving the child.  A passage in the Talmud (I think Megilla) where one rabbi accidentally murders another one, prays, and the other one is revived.  Again, we have a principle that we do not rely on miracles.
The magicians in Egypt were able to replicate almost all the "miracles" performed by Moses.  We don't believe in them either.  The prophet Bilaam was able to perform miracles and communicate with G-d.  That doesn't make him worthy of anything, since he was wicked.
btw, what "history" attests to this?  You only have the Gospel account.  How many people actually saw him?  I think more people have seen Elvis or Czar Nicholas II since they died.  That doesn't make Elvis the messiah, just a hunka hunka burning love.
Elisha - Did he claim divinity?  Did he resurrect himself?  If not, how is he relevant?  The same can be said of this Talmudic account or of Balaam.  And which of Pharoah's "magicians" was beaten, scourged half-to-death, crucified for six hours, speared in the side by Roman executioners to verify his death, then laid out in a tomb for three days (two and a half days by our modern reckoning) and then ressurected himself?  

I am curious, though.  If you do not "rely on miracles" then do you rely on some other evidence for the truth of your beliefs?  Or is Judaism even concerned about this?  

What history, you ask?  The Gospels are known for their historic accuracy, and if I am not mistaken, have a better provenance than the Tanach,** though of course I hold that also to be inspired and true.  The other books of the NT are also considered by many historians to be accurate, based on objective standards, and also speak of Christ's ressurection.  In one verse, Paul reports that Jesus was seen alive by 120 people, if that helps answer your question.  I'm afraid I can't find it, though.  I'll keep looking.  

*Now, I'm not saying that Peter or I can prove that Jesus rose from the dead, but we can show that it is the best explanation for the facts of the case.  On the other hand, the Jewish authorities attempting to quell the Christian sect should have been able to provide Jesus's dead body as proof, had they been correct.

**For that matter, the New Testament is more reliable as a historical document than any other document from the ancient world; if I am correctly informed.
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Stand_watie

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #137 on: August 19, 2006, 06:36:30 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Stand_watie,

I think cordex's point was that some of Jesus's claims in the Gospel may have been made up after his death and added to the Gospels.  I don't agree with that, but pasting Bible verses isn't an argument, in this case.
What would you consider to be "an argument"?
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Perd Hapley

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #138 on: August 19, 2006, 07:36:48 AM »
Stand_watie,

I want to first of all clarify that my point was that cordex called into question that Jesus really said the things that the Bible claims he said.  Your response, apparently, was to supply some of the sayings under dispute, as if that settled things.  If this wasn't your intent, I apoligize.  

If someone like cordex doubts the integrity of the Gospel accounts, I guess the first step would be to explain the New Testament's reliability.  That's probably too much to go into here, though, and we're probably not equipped to do it, unless we paste long selections from Strobel or McDowell, etc.  It may be enough to simply point out that the biblical manuscripts are too early for so much "corruption" to have set in,* or that the apostles and other early leaders who would have known the truth would have gained little, and lost very much, by making up stories.  It might be asked, "If the Biblical accounts had been tampered with, why leave in such embarrassing stuff as the female apostles seeing Jesus and believing before the men or the cowardice of Peter, the foremost leader of the church's early days.

Another approach would be to ask why Christ was sentenced to death, if not for claiming oneness with God.

By the way, what is your name all about?

*I think our earliest manuscripts date from the second century.  The following link was too long for the window, so you'll need to cut and paste into the browser window.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca
/~pietersm/Chester%20Beatty%20Papyri%20(ABD).pdf#search='chester%20beatty%20papyri'
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2006, 04:39:03 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Stand_watie,

I want to first of all clarify that my point was that cordex called into question that Jesus really said the things that the Bible claims he said.  Your response, apparently, was to supply some of the sayings under dispute, as if that settled things.  If this wasn't your intent, I apoligize..
No, you had it correct. I simply took Cordex's question as a question of what claims Jesus made, and cited relevant passages. I assume the discussion to be pointless from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe the veracity of the New Testament accounts.

Regarding my username, it's just a tip of the hat to a prominent 19th century native American. Like most Americans of certain regions of the country I have traces of Indian ancestry in my family and like to try and keep alive the culture. Also, I'm amused without end by contradictory stereotypes and he provided a good example of one.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm
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Stand_watie

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Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #140 on: August 19, 2006, 05:22:33 PM »
Quote from: Barbara
Luke 5:16 "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me.  Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' "

John 8:42 " Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Ezekiel 2:1 "And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee".

Act 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"
Barbara, to whom was your post adressed? Did I miss a post, or was this an aside as to whether or not Jesus claimed to be the Messiah? Could you tell me the specific Bible version that the Luke 5:16 citation is from?
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2006, 02:17:59 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: cosine
I've been pretty annoyed at something things lately posted in this thread, but that's no reason to abandon the high road...
Somehow I have a feeling we wont be hearing from him again.
Wow, Zeke was right: you folks cannot take ANYTHING that is realistic or indicates that Jewishness is branded by an attempt to make them special or righteous by most of their ilk or the public eye.  Ridiculous.  By banning him, you verify your weakness.  He told me on another forum that cosine and rabbi were decent.  I think he's wrong.  Banned because he called asshats asshats?  Or because someone is afraid of an antisemitic brand that is crap?  You guys should welcome him back.  Pussies.

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« Reply #142 on: August 20, 2006, 02:38:59 PM »
Presumably he was banned for not being able to disagree without calling other people names, not for being anti-anything.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #143 on: August 20, 2006, 04:10:13 PM »
Quote from: Barbara
Presumably he was banned for not being able to disagree without calling other people names, not for being anti-anything.
Barbara, don't feed the trolls.
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« Reply #144 on: August 20, 2006, 04:17:50 PM »
Bah.

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« Reply #145 on: August 20, 2006, 05:13:30 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
...don't feed the trolls.
It's hard not to sometimes. *sigh*

I've actually enjoyed this thread. I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread in a calm, mature manner. I have learned a lot, even if tempers have been raised occasionally.
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« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2006, 05:37:04 AM »
Quote
I assume the discussion to be pointless from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe the veracity of the New Testament accounts.
That is exactly my point.

I was replying to Grampster's post in which he questioned why some non-Christians could recognize Jesus as a respected teacher or even a prophet but not divine.  His contention was that because Jesus makes claims about his own divine nature that people should either believe that he was in fact the Son of the Most High, or he was a liar.  However - as you say - if someone doesn't believe the veracity of the New Testament accounts, trying to refer to those accounts to prove anything is essentially pointless.

richyoung

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« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2006, 06:06:23 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I am sorry that your mind is boggled by the fact that Judaism reccognizes the monotheism of Islam ...
I don't "recognize" the monotheism of Islam because there isn't any.  "Allah" is/was ONE of the tribal Arabian gods, a Moon god and a god of war.  (Guess whats on top of each mosque....AND on most Arabian flags?)  Mohammad took an existing god, one of many, added in a meteorite and some Jewish and Christian window dressing, and oila, he had his own religion, just like Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard.
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« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2006, 06:47:27 AM »
rich, what does that have to do with Islam's monotheism or lack thereof?
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #149 on: August 21, 2006, 07:24:07 AM »
Quote from: cordex
Quote
I assume the discussion to be pointless from the perspective of someone who doesn't believe the veracity of the New Testament accounts.
That is exactly my point.

I was replying to Grampster's post in which he questioned why some non-Christians could recognize Jesus as a respected teacher or even a prophet but not divine.  His contention was that because Jesus makes claims about his own divine nature that people should either believe that he was in fact the Son of the Most High, or he was a liar.  However - as you say - if someone doesn't believe the veracity of the New Testament accounts, trying to refer to those accounts to prove anything is essentially pointless.
I'm sorry for wasting your time with the references then. If those accounts are unverifiable I don't see why anyone would believe him to have been a respected teacher or even a prophet either.

But then that is the nature of ancient religious writings. Discard the source material and you're not left with much to discuss.
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