Author Topic: An interesting theoretical question.  (Read 14164 times)

RevDisk

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An interesting theoretical question.
« on: May 06, 2013, 09:45:48 AM »
Would you trade "reasonable infringements" such as mandatory training, background searches etc for deregulation of safety gear like suppressors, repeal Hughes Amendment, reasonable nation wide concealed carry, and criminalize confiscation based on magazine size or firearm type with no qualified immunity?

Obviously, details would be hugely important. But the gist of it. Higher low level requirements in change for repealing high end infringements?

Why or why not?
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Tallpine

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2013, 09:58:59 AM »
No, because they will eventually use those lower level infringements to make virtually everyone ineligible.

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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2013, 10:08:36 AM »
No.

I'm done with "compromise".

I'm done with "reasonable".

I'm done with "common sense" *coughcoughcoughbullscatcough*.

I like LawDog's "Gun Rights Cake" analogy.  http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.mx/2013/01/a-repost.html
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Fitz

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2013, 10:12:32 AM »
Absolutely not, especially with the tide of gun rights swinging in our favor wrt constitutional carry etc
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Ben

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 10:13:29 AM »
I'm with AD. Compromise has continually led to loss of rights. I don't want to own an MP-5 if I have to eventually, through continued "reasonable infringements",  keep it locked up at a gun range.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2013, 10:19:58 AM »
No.

Compromise just means they get half of what they want now, another quarter of it in 5 years, and another eighth of it in 10 years.  In the meantime, I get higher ammo prices, media villainization, increased nagging paperwork for my firearms, decreased ability to carry in public.

I'm done compromising.
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2013, 10:34:09 AM »
No matter what the terms, you cannot form a "joint promise" with a back-stabbing, lying, psychopathic, son-of-a-bitch.


Quote from: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=compromise
early 15c., "a joint promise to abide by an arbiter's decision," from Middle French compromis (13c.), from Latin compromissus, past participle of compromittere "to make a mutual promise" (to abide by the arbiter's decision), from com- "together" (see com-) + promittere (see promise).

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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2013, 10:44:15 AM »
One of my liberal co-workers knows I'm a "gun guy"...   He started with the "common sense" meme...  After he got folded, spindled and mutilated in that argument, tried to change tack to "reasonable compromise"...  I flat out asked him what I would get out of this compromise...  He seemed genuinely puzzled that getting to continue to exercise "some" of my rights wasn't my definition of compromise...  I put it more straightforward - "You're asking me to give something up.  What is your side willing to give up in exchange?"

He still didn't get it.
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Nick1911

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »
No.  Why would I compromise anything, especially now that my state is stepping in to protect my rights? [full text]

Quote
SB 102 establishes the Second Amendment Protection Act.

First, the bill excludes from federal regulation any personal firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured commercially or privately and owned in Kansas. The bill provides that for as long as any such personal firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition remains within the borders of Kansas, it is not subject to any federal law, regulation, or authority.

Second, the bill prevents any federal agent or contracted employee, any state employee, or any local authority from enforcing any federal regulation or law governing any personal firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured commercially or privately and owned in Kansas, provided it remains within the borders of Kansas. In the process of a criminal prosecution, the bill precludes any arrest or detention prior to a trial for a violation of the Act. Finally, the bill allows a county or district attorney or the Attorney General to seek injunctive relief in court to enjoin certain federal officials from enforcing federal law regarding a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately and owned in the state of Kansas and that remains within the borders of Kansas.

This was signed into law [cite].  I didn't see anything in there about MG's or suppressors being exempt.  Now - I'M NOT GOING TO BE THE TEST CASE FOR THIS; But near as I read it:

Quote
a) A personal firearm, a firearm accessory or ammunition that
is manufactured commercially or privately and owned in Kansas and that
remains within the borders of Kansas is not subject to any federal law,
treaty, federal regulation, or federal executive action, including any fed-
eral firearm or ammunition registration program, under the authority of
congress to regulate interstate commerce.

Firearms accessories’’ means items that are used in conjunction
with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function
of a firearm, including, but not limited to, telescopic or laser sights, mag-
azines, flash or sound suppressors, collapsible or adjustable stocks and
grips, pistol grips, thumbhole stocks, speedloaders, ammunition carriers
and lights for target illumination.

 firearm manufactured in Kansas within the meaning of sec-
tions 1 through 11, and amendments thereto, must have the words ‘‘Made
in Kansas’’ clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as the receiver
or frame.

Firearms, suppressors, standard cap mags and MG's [maybe, haven't read how this plays with existing KS law] are now deregulated in the state of Kansas.  If I wanted to create either in my machine shop, so long as they are engraved "Made in Kansas", I'm protected by this act. 

ETA: MG's aren't covered.  Lots of other stuff is, though.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 11:14:35 AM by Nick1911 »

Monkeyleg

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2013, 10:49:51 AM »
AmbulanceDriver, the "compromise" is that they only take this little bit from you today, and they don't go after more until next year.

drewtam

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 11:11:52 AM »
"You're asking me to give something up.  What is your side willing to give up in exchange?"

Rev's question is a true compromise, as noted by AD's definition... what do we get?

suppressors
automatics
explosives
large bore weapons
federal reciprocity of ccw
and state exemption of overtly restrictive laws


True compromises like this are more interesting. In day to day life, these changes wouldn't make much difference for many. But if 29% are expecting armed civil war in their lifetime to protect civil rights, then these might be appropriate compromises to stock up in preparation for such an awful epoch.

Crime & terrorism probably won't be affected. In some ways, entry level introduction to firearms will become more difficult due to the increased cost and time for training and background checks. It is easy to underestimate the impact this has to the movement and culture as a whole.

On the whole, I find this to be a balanced return for loss. My biggest issue with it, is the introductory costs this creates. This is a problem for 2 reasons, #1 it strangles the movement over a period of decades, which is a risky move for us #2 it imposes a "poll tax" on a human and civil right, which is bad on principle.

Until actual details were created and judged, I would consider it plausible but suspicious.
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freakazoid

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 11:27:51 AM »
Quote
I didn't see anything in there about MG's or suppressors being exempt.


Firearms accessories’’ means items that are used in conjunction
with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function
of a firearm, including, but not limited to, telescopic or laser sights, mag-
azines, flash or sound suppressors, collapsible or adjustable stocks and
grips, pistol grips, thumbhole stocks, speedloaders, ammunition carriers
and lights for target illumination.

 [popcorn]

Thank you Governor Brownback.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 02:50:04 PM »
No.

I'm done with "compromise".

I'm done with "reasonable".

I'm done with "common sense" *coughcoughcoughbullscatcough*.

I like LawDog's "Gun Rights Cake" analogy.  http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.mx/2013/01/a-repost.html

Quoted for truth.

The 2nd Amendment says the RKBA shall not be infringed. Period. There is no "unreasonably" in there, and there is nothing about training, background checks, registration, or any of the rest of the "common sense" garbage the antis want to impose on us.

There can be no compromise, because for the antis today's "compromise" is never the end ... it's always just another "good first step" toward their ultimate goal, which is the complete elimination of firearms in private ownership.

No.

Just 'No."
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zxcvbob

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2013, 03:07:05 PM »
The only compromise I'm interested in:  Repeal GCA68 in its entirety, repeal everything gun-related in the 1968 Omnibus Crime Act, reopen the machine gun registry, AND take suppressors off the NFA.  In return, the antis can keep the rest of NFA34 (for now.)  

Basically, roll everything back to 1967 plus remove federal restrictions on suppressors/silencers.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 03:21:02 PM by zxcvbob »
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HankB

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2013, 03:13:36 PM »
. . . put it more straightforward - "You're asking me to give something up.  What is your side willing to give up in exchange?"

I've had this very experience on more than one occasion with people who advocate "compromise" on any of a number of issues, beginning with a teacher 'way back in elementary school who mulishly refused to consider that both sides ought to gain/lose something in more or less the same proportion if there's a true "compromise."
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2013, 03:29:18 PM »
I don't see what is proposed in the OP as comprimise.

It's bait and switch. The whole thing comes down to we can either have cool stuff with lots of regulations or limited regulations but not as much shiny toys.

Both option are infringment, therefor neither is comprimise.

You can't comprimise absolute principles. They just don't work like that.
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Scout26

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2013, 04:52:25 PM »
1.  Most/some states already have a "training" requirement.  (Some as simple as Hunter Ed or a DD214), so that "infringement" is already there.

2.  We already have NICS for the purchase from FFL.  That's a background check.   (Others of us have one done when we get our FOID cards or CCW/LTC permits), so we already have that infringement.

So in exchange for nothing changing (and can we get that in writing/law.  "No New Gun Laws"), we'd get 922(d) repealed along with national reciprocity and the elimination of DD/AOW and other regs so that anyone that can own a gun can own a MG/Suppressor, SBR, etc. 

Sounds like the other side would be doing all the "compromising" as we simply agree to status quo, while they agree to roll back various infringements. 

I think good Rev has gotten into the stronger stuff this time.   =D ;)
 
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erictank

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 04:56:42 PM »
AmbulanceDriver, the "compromise" is that they only take this little bit from you today, and they don't go after more until next year WEEK.

FTFY. They never wait a whole YEAR.

Pointing out the true definition of the word "compromise," or that what they offer is not even CLOSE to a compromise, never fazes them, either.

Quoted for truth.

The 2nd Amendment says the RKBA shall not be infringed. Period. There is no "unreasonably" in there, and there is nothing about training, background checks, registration, or any of the rest of the "common sense" garbage the antis want to impose on us.

There can be no compromise, because for the antis today's "compromise" is never the end ... it's always just another "good first step" toward their ultimate goal, which is the complete elimination of firearms in private ownership.

No.

Just 'No."

And they come right out and TELL you things like, "This is a good start," or, "It's just a first, small step on the road." Crap like that.

I might be tempted into OP's compromise, if I thought the other side was at all trustworthy. They've long since proven they aren't

No deal.

Regolith

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 05:51:00 PM »
1.  Most/some states already have a "training" requirement.  (Some as simple as Hunter Ed or a DD214), so that "infringement" is already there.


Only for concealed carry or to get a hunting license. In most states, I don't have to have any training simply to buy a gun.
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vaskidmark

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 05:59:43 PM »
All I want to know is how we can be abso-damn-lutely guaranteed that what they give up will and can never be taken back.  And add that stuff like country-wide recognition of CCW will not be incrementally changed.  I want something like the Interstate Compact on Drivers Licenses, which the feds say is tied to the $@*#!! Commerce Clause so the states really have no choice but to agree to sign off on it.  (And yes, it does directly effect interstate commerce - just ask Maryland why I do not even enter their state when I travel up and down the east coast.)

Do that and I'm on the bandwagon.

But not until you can do that.

Listen carefully.  Can you hear it?  "Peace in our time."  "Appeasement."  Worked just great the last time, didn't it?

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 06:21:57 PM »
I don't recall whether the Missouri Carry forum is viewable by guests. If so, peep some of our recent threads to get an idea of how badly the anti's can mess with a CCW program. It should forever sour you on the idea of letting Washington anywhere near that process.

http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/index.php

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« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 07:53:33 PM by fistful »
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230RN

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2013, 07:35:58 PM »
OP:  No.

And it's not that I haven't posted several times on several boards for several years about the dynamics of negotiation and compromise when one party is the aggressor, armed with hundreds of full-time devotees who agree with and are complicit with the aggression

And the other party is just a bunch of hobbyists who have livings to make and mouths to feed and just go out on weekends to burn some powder.

Basically, that's the True State of Affairs.

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 07:44:28 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MicroBalrog

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2013, 08:21:18 PM »
Quote
Firearms, suppressors, standard cap mags and MG's [maybe, haven't read how this plays with existing KS law] are now deregulated in the state of Kansas.  If I wanted to create either in my machine shop, so long as they are engraved "Made in Kansas", I'm protected by this act. 

I thought that eixsting KS law regulating these various devices is not repealed by this bill?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2013, 09:09:54 PM »
NO!

Why?

Because I damn well don't have to.

What part of "...Shall not be infringed" is so al fired blessed hard to *expletive deleted*ing understand?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: An interesting theoretical question.
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2013, 09:24:04 PM »
Are you talking about the specific compromise you outline, or about the general notion of quid pro quo comprommise?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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