'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'

[Stand_watie]

If you're interested in this topic, put this book on your read list. I picked it up today and only gotten a couple of chapters into it, but so far it's right on the money. The author is David Brog.

*****
from his website

http://davidbrog.com/index.php

About The Author

David Brog lives and writes in Washington, DC.  He worked in the United States Senate for seven years, rising to be chief of staff to a senior United States senator and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee.  Prior to his time on Capitol Hill, Brog served as an executive at America Online and practiced corporate law in Tel Aviv, Israel and Philadelphia, PA.  Brog is a graduate of Princeton University and Harvard Law School.  


Preface
 
This is a book about politics and religion, Christians and Jews, anti-Semites and righteous Gentiles. It would be difficult to find more emotional and controversial topics about which to write. Anyone who wants to objectively analyze my ideas on these difficult subjects will need to factor in my background and the biases I may bring to my analysis. I thus owe it to you, the reader, to state at the outset just who I am and why I have written this book. Starting with religion, I am a Jew. I am not a Messianic Jew or a Jew for JesusI dont believe that the Messiah has ever appeared on Earth. Nor am I an alienated or self-hating Jew. I embrace my Jewish faith and seek knowledge of my Creator through the paths and texts provided to me by my Jewish ancestors. While I do not observe all of the Halacha (Jewish law), I do recognize the Halacha as a central component of my religion. If there be fault in my failure to observe it, the fault lies with me, not with the law. Moving on to politics, I am a Republican. Yet it is important to note that I spent my entire career in politics working for the most liberal of Republican senators, Arlen Specter. I worked for Senator Specter for more than seven years, first as his chief counsel and later as his chief of staff. Senator Specter is a vocal champion of causes that are anathema to the Christian Right, namely legalized abortion and embryonic stem cell research. While I do not share my former bosss certainty on these issues, I represented him zealously the entire time I was in his employ. Thus I write this book not as a stalwart of the Christian Right, but as one who has seen difficult combat with the Christian Right. My curiosity about the topic of Christian Zionism stems from my years working on Capitol Hill. During this period, I was privileged to meet a number of Christian Zionists who impressed me by their devotion to Israel and their apparent love for the Jewish people. If there is one great theme to Jewish history, it is our lonely walk through the centuries. The Jews have known no great allies, no stalwart friendswe have lived and died facing a hostile world alone. Thus I found it intriguing to think that, finally, we had some very big friends standing on our side.

Yet the media told me not to get my hopes up. Television, newspapers, and magazines all informed me that Christian Zionists were not real friends of the Jews but enemies in disguise who supported Israel out of a sick desire to see the Jews killed or converted at the end of days. I started researching this book in a simple quest to discover the truth, to see if these purported friends were what they claimed to be.

What I learned in the course of my research far surpassed what I had expected to find. I became convinced that the evangelical Christians who support Israel today are nothing less than the theological heirs of the righteous Gentiles who sought to save Jews from the Holocaust. This book represents the fruits of my search for the truth. This book is also my attempt to thank those whom the truth has vindicated and exalted. It is my great hope that this book can contribute in some small way to a reconciliation between Christian and Jew, which is long overdue.

This book has been a labor of love. And like all expressions of love, it has left my heart bigger than it was before I began. I hope that it will have the same effect on you, dear reader.

[roo_ster]

At its heart, my support for Israel (over its enemies) is pretty simple:
Israel is a decent country in the midst of darkest depravity and savagery.  It is not perfect, but its enemies are so foul as to make Israel shine like a diamond in a goat's ass.  

To support Israel is merely an expression of Civilization, such as to favor:
Beauty over ugliness
Love over hatred
Gentility over savagery
Good over evil
Knowledge over ignorance
Wisdom over foolishnes
...(You get the picture)

My Christian faith does play some role, as well.  It is supplementary, however, as I believed as I stated above before putting on the new man. (Unless you consider what is morally good and seeking to promote the same is inextricably linked to the Christian component of Western Civilization...)

To be specific, my faith tells me that those that don't do right by God's chosen people will not prosper.  Also, more generally, that I am to seek and support that which is good an abjure what is evil.

Last, Israel is an expression of Western Civilization set amongst barbarity.  I have enough pride and confidence in the superiority of Western Civilization to back it in the face of all comers.

[Monkeyleg]

I think it's best not to delve into the issue of religion.

What I find fascinating about the current Israel/Lebanon fight is that the Hezbollah have managed to get the upper hand in the public relations fight.

They started the fight, they're the ones who are causing innocent Lebanese to be killed in attacks by Israel by hiding their missile batteries in civilian areas (unless you accept the premise that Israel should just sit back and not respond), yet almost the entire world blames Israel.

And then there's the issue of the Hezbollah sympathizers living within these neighborhoods. These people certainly know where the rockets are being launched from. Yet they claim victimhood status, and won't give up the terrorists who are raining down death to their neighbors.

I live in Milwaukee, which is about 90 miles north of Chicago. For sake of argument, let's say that Chicago is a sovereign country, and has the best-equipped and trained military in North America.

Now, if I know that a couple of my neighbors are launching rockets into Chicago and killing civilians, what would I do?

I'd pack my bags and get out of Dodge ASAP, because I would expect Mayor Daley to attack my neighborhood with full force.

[Stand_watie]

At its heart, my support for Israel (over its enemies) is pretty simple:
Israel is a decent country in the midst of darkest depravity and savagery.  It is not perfect, but its enemies are so foul as to make Israel shine like a diamond in a goat's ass.  

To support Israel is merely an expression of Civilization, such as to favor:
Beauty over ugliness
Love over hatred
Gentility over savagery
Good over evil
Knowledge over ignorance
Wisdom over foolishnes
...(You get the picture)

My Christian faith does play some role, as well.  It is supplementary, however, as I believed as I stated above before putting on the new man. (Unless you consider what is morally good and seeking to promote the same is inextricably linked to the Christian component of Western Civilization...)

To be specific, my faith tells me that those that don't do right by God's chosen people will not prosper.  Also, more generally, that I am to seek and support that which is good an abjure what is evil.

Last, Israel is an expression of Western Civilization set amongst barbarity.  I have enough pride and confidence in the superiority of Western Civilization to back it in the face of all comers.

To put a more specific theological point upon your correct premise I'll add this reading and commentary

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

Point (from Christian zionist John Hagee): God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God. (my own point, growing up in evangelical Christian churches, this is what I cut my teeth upon.  This has been preached in evangelical Christian churches since at least the 1970's)

Again from Hagee

It is not possible to say, "I am a Christian" and not love the Jewish people. The Bible teaches that love is not what you say, but what you do. (1 John 3:18) "A bell is not a bell until you ring it, a song is not a song until you sing it, love is not love until you share it."

While some Christians try to deny the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, Jesus never denied his Jewishness. He was born Jewish, He was circumcised on the eighth day in keeping with Jewish tradition, He had his Bar Mitzvah on his 13th birthday, He kept the law of Moses, He wore the Prayer Shawl Moses commanded all Jewish men to wear, He died on a cross with an inscription over His head, "King of the Jews!"

Jesus considered the Jewish people His family. Jesus said (Matthew 25:40) "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren (the Jewish people& Gentiles were never called His brethren), ye have done it unto me."

[roo_ster]

What I find fascinating about the current Israel/Lebanon fight is that the Hezbollah have managed to get the upper hand in the public relations fight.

They started the fight, they're the ones who are causing innocent Lebanese to be killed in attacks by Israel by hiding their missile batteries in civilian areas (unless you accept the premise that Israel should just sit back and not respond), yet almost the entire world blames Israel.

And then there's the issue of the Hezbollah sympathizers living within these neighborhoods. These people certainly know where the rockets are being launched from. Yet they claim victimhood status, and won't give up the terrorists who are raining down death to their neighbors.

The upper hand with whom?  

With muslims who would see Israel pushed into the sea and all Jews put to the sword?  With Euro-weenies who have lost confidence in their civilization, who have harbored anti-semitism in their breast for decades (centuries?)...and are heartily sick of hiding it these years since the Nazi massacre of the Jews?  With the same crowd in the US that backs the terrorists over our boys?

One way to judge folks' worth is by the character of their enemies...

[Iain]

With Euro-weenies who have lost confidence in their civilization, who have harbored anti-semitism in their breast for decades (centuries?)...and are heartily sick of hiding it these years since the Nazi massacre of the Jews?

I have to ask - why does this roll off the tongue so easily? It seems that so often in these debates Europeans are causally painted as anti-semites. There definitely are European anti-semites, and there definitely are Europeans who criticise Israel, they are not necessarily one and the same.

That said, a recent editorial in the Independent was entitled 'You don't have to be anti-semitic to think that Israel shouldn't exist, but it does help' ( I possibly paraphrase) which did detail some of the mail the author had received since his last editorial on the subject of Israel - my eyebrows were certainly raised. Still, that's only some.

The interesting thing is that my pro-Israel friend has been upset by the BBC's coverage, yet a good number of responses to the BBC's Have Your Say debates have questioned the media's unquestioning acceptance of the Zionist agenda. Amuses me.

[Guest]

Christians should support the Izzys because if you look on the bible as historical reference, anyone who ever F***ed with the jews ALWAYS eventually come out 2nd best.

[The Rabbi]

Europeans are definitely anti-semites, as a general statement.  The Germans, oddly or not so oddly, are the most friendly.  The French among the worst.  The English are no bed of roses, as I learned during my stay at Oxford 1984-1985.  Anti-semitism there has been traditionally an attitude of the Left.  And while I wouldnt say that anyone who criticizes Israel's policies is an anti-semite (and there is room for legitimate debate), it is amazing how often the two correlate.

[Stand_watie]

With Euro-weenies who have lost confidence in their civilization, who have harbored anti-semitism in their breast for decades (centuries?)...and are heartily sick of hiding it these years since the Nazi massacre of the Jews?

I have to ask - why does this roll off the tongue so easily? It seems that so often in these debates Europeans are causally painted as anti-semites. There definitely are European anti-semites, and there definitely are Europeans who criticise Israel, they are not necessarily one and the same...

The first chapter of the book -'The Rise of Replacement Theology' - might provide some enlightenment for you here. I know that for me it was a light bulb going off in my head which explained to me *traditional Jewish attitudes* toward Christians.

In the case of myself, and I'm sure yourself, this  overly broad brush painting of Christians by Jews (and the intellectual left) and Europeans by Americans (and Zionists) might be encapsulated in the expression regarding lying down with dogs and waking up with fleas. In my thread about questioners of holocaust numbers, I lay down a similar caveat.

 Certainly one doesn't have to be an anti-semite to be an anti-zionist - there are very religious Jews who are anti-zionist by religious principle. More widespread than outright anti-Zionism, the moral equivalancy thinking of America's political far left (which I'd say is about the center of the European political spectrum) has plenty of Jews (ethnically speaking), and has come about I think from intelligentsia gravitating into the media. I read the english version Ha'aretz and think there is plenty of that even in the Israeli media.



*To speak fairly,  my own personal knowledge of "Traditional Jewish attitudes" towards Christians is from reading, electronic media and internet discussions. To my knowledge, with the exception of several MD's and Psychiatrists who never offered comment, all the Jews who have known me to be a Christian personally have been Christians that I've known through church who were Jewish only in ethnicity.

[Iain]

Europeans are definitely anti-semites, as a general statement.  The Germans, oddly or not so oddly, are the most friendly.  The French among the worst.  The English are no bed of roses, as I learned
during my stay at Oxford 1984-1985.  Anti-semitism there has been traditionally an attitude of the Left.

I'm disappointed that such a general statement has been made, but if it truly matches your experience then than that is your experience and I am surprised and again disappointed. As a general statement, Americans...?

And while I wouldnt say that anyone who criticizes Israel's policies is an anti-semite (and there is room for legitimate debate), it is amazing how often the two correlate.

They do, I entirely agree. I guess there seems to be a valid place in this discussion for comment on the historical existence of Christian anti-semitism. Unbelievers, Christ-killers, where does it stem from, and why the reversal? Revelation has been in the Bible for some time now, so if modern Christian support even partly stems from apocalyptic beliefs why not in the past?

[lee n. field]

You know, in other environments (I'm thinking particularly of freerepublic.com) this discussion can turn into a 400+ post flamefest.  Threads get closed, people get banned over it.  APS is probably too small a venue for that (I sincerely hope), and a bit of a strange place for it to come up.

The first chapter of the book -'The Rise of Replacement Theology' - might provide some enlightenment for you here. I know that for me it was a light bulb going off in my head which explained to me *traditional Jewish attitudes* toward Christians.

The use of the term "replacement theology" is a red flag.  It's a derogatory term used only by dispensationalists, against anyone (like me) who disagrees with dispensationalism's "two people's of God, two seperate destinies" theology (which theology when worked through to it's logical conclusion has some soteriological consequences you probably wouldn't like).

How does St. Paul treat the Abrahamic covenant?

(For those of you heathen who don't understand a word of this, it's an inhouse debate, one that often generates a lot of acrimony.)

[Art Eatman]

I'm not much on organized religion.  Like most of my doings, I go my own way about my own version of belief in the Big Hodad In The Sky.

Easy enough to go along with the analogy of Israel standing out like a diamond in a goat's ass.  One of the best I've heard.

This particular go-'round is easy; no religious thought required:  A bunch of badasses spent years building up materiel to use in a manner best described as War Crimes.  WC is attacking civilian targets in a "to whom it may concern" manner, even when it's not specifically deliberate--but, which in this case, it is.

So, the IDF is going in to kick butt and take names.

More power to them.  

We already know from the last 58 years of photgraphed history that negotiation doesn't work, ceasefires don't work, land-for-peace doesn't work and recognition of a Palestinian state does not work.  The Jihadists are gonna do their damndest to kill all the Jews and eradicate Israel.

Now let me digress:  I find this "Palestinian" thing amusing.  Let me offer a bit of doggerel from BEFORE there was any sort of "Israel" as came into being in 1948.  I learned this bit of a song back in the mid-1940s, as best I recollect:

"Come all with big, long noses; come join the League of Moses; fight, fight, fight for Palestine.

Scorners of pork and gravy, come join the Yiddish Navy, fight, fight, fight for Palestine."

Sounds to me that Jews = Palestinians was The Way It Was, once upon a time.

, Art

[Art Eatman]

Addendum:

Elmer Keith was a generation ahead of me, or a bit more.  Howsomever, I sorta feel at my 72 years that I have earned my own right to the "Hell, I was there!" bit.  'Cause I wuz, for a lot of stuff.  Every now and then I sorta feel the need to tell somebody, "No, Sonny-boy, that AIN'T the way it was."

Adn while I'm grumping, lemme add that every time I hear that anti-Semitic phrase, "Zionist agenda", I wanna go off in the corner and puke.

Art

[roo_ster]

With Euro-weenies who have lost confidence in their civilization, who have harbored anti-semitism in their breast for decades (centuries?)...and are heartily sick of hiding it these years since the Nazi massacre of the Jews?

I have to ask - why does this roll off the tongue so easily? It seems that so often in these debates Europeans are causally painted as anti-semites. There definitely are European anti-semites, and there definitely are Europeans who criticise Israel, they are not necessarily one and the same.

First, like The Rabbi, I don't think criticism of Israel is necessarily antisemitism.  Also, like The Rabbi, criticism of Israel does correlate.

Euro-weenies/Antisemitism
My term, "Euro-weenie" combines two concepts: european-ness and weenie-ness.  There are europeans who are weenies and europeans who are not.  Those who are not weenies can be counted on to fight for their civilization.  Those who are weenies not only will not fight, they don't think much of their civilization and can be counted on to take the enemies of civilizations' part.

Why do I think that antisemitism is pretty thick in Europe?  Well, I ask Europeans.  It is amazing what folks will tell you if you only ask*.  It helps to grease the skids with a comment like, "Hey, it is not necessarily antisemitism to criticize Israeli policy."  Give it a straight, earnest delivery and no telling what might fall out of someone's mouth.  That's one way I figured out so many (not all, just a majority) of my muslim colleagues at work & school** were antisemites.

Why is it so easy to bring out the jew-hater in folks (euros, especially?)?  I am not certain, but I suspect it is just the same feelings that existed pre-WW2 finally bubbling into the open, again.  After WW2, people in polite company had to keep a lid on it, for fear of looking like a Nazi ogre.  

But, hey, that was 60 years ago!   I didn't send anybody to the gas chamber!  Now, the Jews have their own country & have soundly whipped the Arabs.  Repeatedly.  Also, Jew-animosity can be cloaked in progressive secular (AKA, "Marxist") dogma:  The Jews are the oppressor!  They take land away form the poor and give it to other Jews!  They are the worst sort of imperialists!  They steal the labor of hte Palestinians and give nothing in return.   Blah, blah, blah.  [Insert marxist boilerplate repeatedly and liberally]



 * A local newpaper guy got a local "moderate" muslim leader to admit he beats his wife on the record, with a defense that it is part of his culture.  And helps keep their women in line. (You can't make this sh!t up)

** A mix of US citizens & foreigners

[Iain]

I don't bait people often enough I guess. In the light of The Rabbi's remarks I'm not going to engage in an defense of my continent other than to say that I've regularly been a little rankled by some of the causal remarks about Europeans and their views on race in general, but I'm quite willing to be wrong on this one.

Perhaps the people you have discussed this issue with tend to be Europeans because you are an American, and my experience has been the reverse. Purely anecdotally I've come across more pseudo-Nazi nonsense from Americans, but I have talked to far more Americans on the net than Europeans.

Art, I use the term in the context that I see it used, although not by all who have this idea that the media is overly pro-Israel. It's not my sentiment.

[grampster]

Israel is a free, democratic, capitalistic state surrounded by leaders of the PanArab world who are tribal feudalists, religious bigots, despots, dictators, hypocrites, and assorted folks that defy description.  
Any other argument aside, why wouldn't any sane person take up for Israel?

Look at it from a purely secular political stance and understand that Israel has, for the most part, given in to world opinion, left wing world opinion I might add, whose basis is "Why don't we all just get along, Israel, and you, Israel, do as we suggest."  Which has been glorious appeasment on a grand scale.  I almost puked when I read the dreck and tripe coming out of that Peanut Farmer's mouth about how he and his ilk had brought stability to the area by being appeasors, and how George Bush screwed it all up.  Hell, the truth of it is, those appeasors have been keeping a war going on in the Middle East for nearly 60 years.  Most of the Middle East, except for Syria, Iran and probably Saudi Arabia, have grudgingly accorded Israel their place.  The rest of the civilized world ought to wake up, unite and isolate those 3 places and offer them the opportunity to join the world community or face the dismantling of their aggegious political establishments.

In another thread, one of the posters mentioned if the same people were in power in the West, such as Jimma Cahtah and his ilk,  in the West, united with the left wing drive-by media, during WWII, more than likely we would still be at war with Germany and Japan.   Why?  Because the convential wisdom of the left dictates that by standing up to Nazism and Japanese fuedal emporer worship that presented us with a muderous manifest German/Japanese destiny,  we would be creating more subscibers to their insanity.  That notion was proven nuts then, and is just as crazy today.

[Stand_watie]

You know, in other environments (I'm thinking particularly of freerepublic.com) this discussion can turn into a 400+ post flamefest.  Threads get closed, people get banned over it.  APS is probably too small a venue for that (I sincerely hope), and a bit of a strange place for it to come up.

The first chapter of the book -'The Rise of Replacement Theology' - might provide some enlightenment for you here. I know that for me it was a light bulb going off in my head which explained to me *traditional Jewish attitudes* toward Christians.

The use of the term "replacement theology" is a red flag.  It's a derogatory term used only by dispensationalists, against anyone (like me) who disagrees with dispensationalism's "two people's of God, two seperate destinies" theology (which theology when worked through to it's logical conclusion has some soteriological consequences you probably wouldn't like).How does St. Paul treat the Abrahamic covenant? ...

Well considering that the very first time I heard the term  was reading this book, written by a Jew, I'd say that statement might be overly broad. I'd be happy to use the term you prefer to refer to 'Replacement theology' if you have one you think preferable. Paul's treatment of the Abrahamic covenent reads to me that gentiles, through faith may be added to the Abrahamic covenant, not that Jews, by race, have had the covenant revoked by God, and in fact my reading from a common sense perspective appears that he goes out of his way to reject that notion, particularly in Romans 11:26 where a contextual reading  of his statement seems to specify quite clearly that "Israel" is the Jewish state/ethnic decendants of Abraham - he draws a clear distinction between "Israel" and gentiles saved by faith.

I'm sure that (whatever you call yourself) and dispensationalists (of which I'm not sure that I myself am)  argue that point. I don't intend to, I'm merely stating my opinion based upon reading Paul's words. Several germaine (I think) passages are excerpted below with some sections bolded/underlined by me.


**
Galatians 3:15 - 29

 "Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11: 1 -32

The Remnant of Israel
 
"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijahhow he appealed to God against Israel: "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
   "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
      eyes so that they could not see
      and ears so that they could not hear,
   to this very day."And David says:
   "May their table become a snare and a trap,
      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
      and their backs be bent forever."

Ingrafted Branches

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If SOME of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in amongTHE OTHERS[/u] and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved
 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

[The Rabbi]

I am sorry my post upset Iain.  One can find anti semites (and philo-semites) everywhere, including Israel.  But I have not found any university in the US that has barred Israeli academics from lecturing or giving papers, and I believe several in the UK have.  This comes under the rubric of some kind of social action or something, but it smacks of plain old anti semitism to me.
On replacement theology, that was always my understanding of Christianity: The Jews rejected gods son and have been cast aside ever since.  That seems consistent with a lot of things but if someone tells me I have the wrong idea about it I'll accept that.  The "Two Covenant" strategy seems logically weak to me and raises many more issues than it solves.

[Stand_watie]

Rereading Scripture quoted in my last post it occured to me that it might readily be taken that Zionist Christians believe they have a physical entitlement regarding the actual land and government of the State of Israel. I'd like to say I personally don't lay claim to  any entitlement regarding rights to physical property, voting rights, or promises of physical protection from God. In my perspective the first two of those I'd only expect what was offered by the current or future citizens of Israel through their democratic government, and I'd expect it to be based upon pragmatism regarding what I have to offer the Nation, rather than religious concerns. The covenant that God offered me in Christ regards spiritual issues far more greatly than physical, and if there are physical promises from God made to Christian gentiles, I'd much rather give them up than have them present a stumbling block to others.

[Stand_watie]

...On replacement theology, that was always my understanding of Christianity: The Jews rejected gods son and have been cast aside ever since.  That seems consistent with a lot of things but if someone tells me I have the wrong idea about it I'll accept that.  The "Two Covenant" strategy seems logically weak to me and raises many more issues than it solves.

What my reading of this book suggests Rabbi, is that that theology was the dominant theology of Christianity from Augustine through John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren of the mid-19th century. Understand if you can what a shock it is for a guy born in 1970, who's been through a HUGE spectrum of evangelical Protestant Christian churches and never heard that theology espoused as truth, but only as an example of "why the Catholics were wrong", to realize the breadth of the thinking throughout historical Christianity.

[Stand_watie]

Ian and the Rabbi:

Which of you would actually be more interested in reading this book?  I think the historical stuff alone is worth reading regardless of your theological background. If either of you is willing to promise me you'll read it, I'll mail it to you on my own dime. Ideally, whichever one of you I mail it to will mail it to the other to read after he finishes.

[Stand_watie]

P.s. What are "Philo-semites" Rabbi?

[Iain]

Philo-, -phile, -philia and others - from the Greek.

I am actually interested in reading the book, I missed the previously referred to friend's birthday last month so I was actually thinking about buying him a copy. He'll most likely appreciate it, and I'll be able to borrow it. Kind offer.

[Stand_watie]

Philo-, -phile, -philia and others - from the Greek.

I am actually interested in reading the book, I missed the previously referred to friend's birthday last month so I was actually thinking about buying him a copy. He'll most likely appreciate it, and I'll be able to borrow it. Kind offer.

If you'll send me your mailing address, I'll get it into the mail in the next week. P.S. could you please put something similar to "This is Ian from APS" in the subject line of your email? I have a terrible time with spam, and  delete an awful lot of stuff from that email account. I'll respond to you with my work e-mail account which is much more reliable in getting the message through.

Browse through the first chapter before you wrap it. I think you'll be a little unhappy with your (our) heritage - at the same time I think it will open your eyes regarding skepticism of Jewish folk regarding people of a Christian background. Of course you might actually be an Indian or Arab living in England, I'm just taking a guess based on probabilities of your geographical region that you're somewhat Christian by culture if not by actual intellectual choice.

[El Tejon]

Are not the Europeans forced politically to hate Israel?  The Euros threw their lot in with the Arabs to attempt to build a coalition to check the USA and they received much-needed new blood (immigrants) to continue their welfare states.

Europeans as a matter of political reality must be anti-Jewish, or at least only anti-Israel (for now until population shifts and sharia can be enforced).  Hate the Jews so you can maintain ties with the Middle East to check the USA, right?