'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'

[De Selby]

The Ottman Caliphate

That's been gone for 80 years.

Umayyad Spanish states

That one's been gone for a thousand years and Sulieman is long dead.

The tradition continues today in the only Islamic theocracy in the world, Iran, which demonstrates that the principle of tolerance for Judaism is unambiguous and shared across the sectarian divides in Islam.

Puh-leeze!  Do you actually want me to recount some of the more egregious (and plentiful) anti Israel, anti Jew remarks of the Iranian leadership, clerics and press?

Yes, they've been gone for a long time.  So what?  How does that have any bearing to the point I was making about Islam and its relationship to Judaism?

As for Iran, it's in the constitution.  Of course there are anti-semites in Iran, just like there are in Europe and America.  But the law protects their religion, they have a guaranteed seat in the government, and they are actually respected on the ground.  If you look for reports, you will find that they have their own hospitals (which Ahmadinejad has donated large sums of money to himself), schools, and often visit Israel to see relatives.

The fact of the matter is, the Iranian religious law on this is without dispute: Jewish religious practice is to be protected Iran.  And the facts on the ground show that this law is followed in practice, not just in theory.

[Paddy]

Yes, they've been gone for a long time.  So what?  How does that have any bearing to the point I was making about Islam and its relationship to Judaism?

Because.......(quite obviously).........if Islam is the peaceful religion you claim it is

The example for Islamic teaching is pretty clear: Jewish people and religion are to be respected.

why can't you proffer even one exampleof an Islamic state that practices that 'tenet'? 

The fact of the matter is, the Iranian religious law on this is without dispute: Jewish religious practice is to be protected Iran.  And the facts on the ground show that this law is followed in practice, not just in theory.

I can't believe you actually believe this.  Do the Imams at your madrassa really think none of you students will fact check? 

"The Holocaust, or the slaughter of Jews during of WWII by German Nazis, is a myth and a contrived story.
The myth of the Holocaust is an excuse [used by] West to establish the illegal Zionist regime, and denial of it is an irrefutable attestation - in addition to many other attestations - that clearly testify to the illegality of the existence of the Zionist regime."-Hossein Shariatmadari, editor of the Iranian daily Kayhan

In December 2006, Ahmadinejad held a 'holocaust denial conference in Teheran, where they established a 'world foundation for holocaust studies' and appointed Presidential Advisor Mohammad-Ali Ramin as its secretary-general.  Here are some of his remarks:

"Throughout History, This Religious Group [i.e. the Jews] has Inflicted the Most Damage on the Human Race "among the Jews there have always been those who killed Gods prophets and who opposed justice and righteousness. Throughout history, this religious group has inflicted the most damage on the human race, while some groups within it engaged in plotting against other nations and ethnic groups to cause cruelty, malice and wickedness."

 'Historically, there are many accusations against the Jews. For example, it was said that they were the source for such deadly diseases as the plague and typhus. This is because the Jews are very filthy people."

Ramin added that the aim of the Holocaust conspiracy was to facilitate the establishment of the state of Israel, which would, in turn, provoke the Muslims to rise up, confront the Jews, and massacre them. 'This [conspiracy],' he said, 'conducted by Europe and America, would lead to the total annihilation of global Jewry." Ramin added that 'as a religious Muslim, who believes in the equality of all nations, he must alert [people] to the fact that the state of Israel was established as the result of a conspiracy against the Jews..."

Ramin claimed that the Holocaust was the main reason why Palestine was occupied, while Israel was the main cause of crises and catastrophe in the Middle East. 'So long as Israel exists in the region,' he said, 'there will never be peace and security in the Middle East. So the resolution of the Holocaust issue will end in the destruction of Israel.' 

And it goes on an on.  It's clear that all this holocaust denial is  necessary to pave the way for a new genocide against Jews. So extreme is the antisemitism coming out of Iran, it is even criticized by other Arabs! The Conference Was Not Academic; It Harmed Iran and the Muslims

British Arab journalist 'Adel Darwish wrote in the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "The extremist Iranian president [Ahmadinejad] may have gained some points [in terms of] vocal propaganda in the hate[-mongering] satellite channels, but diplomatically, he only caused damage to his country, which is [going through] a difficult period in [terms of] its foreign [relations]. He also caused severe damage to the Muslims by creating a political-cultural climate in which feelings of hate drown out the Muslims' noble and humane sentiments.

Saudi journalist Yousef Al-Sweidan wrote in the Kuwaiti daily Al-Siyassa: "The new extremist Nazis in turbans were not ashamed to open that wretched conference in Tehran on December 11, 2006 [with the intent] of spreading hate and tendentious propaganda and defending the heinous crimes of the Nazis...

"The turbaned extremists and terrorists ceaselessly threaten with [their] Shihab missiles and with the [Iranian] nuclear program, calling to exterminate the Jews and to wipe Israel off the map. They spread the [pathetic] delusion that 'Israel will soon disappear just as the Soviet Union [disappeared].'

Kuwaiti journalist Dr. Khaled Al-Janfawi wrote in Al-Siyassa: [5] "Holding a conference devoted to Holocaust denial reflects a lack of cultural and human sensitivity which may exacerbate hatred among human beings.
Holding a Holocaust [denial] conference in Iran is adding fuel to the fire... Some of the participants were agitators, and [others] were [individuals] involved in racist discrimination against [minorities] other than the Jews, such as the African-Americans in the U.S...."

Former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali: "Western leaders today who say they are shocked by the conference of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran denying the Holocaust need to wake up to that reality. For the majority of Muslims in the world, the Holocaust is not a major historical event that they deny; they simply do not know [about it] because they were never informed. Worse, most of us are [brought up] to wish for a Holocaust of Jews.

Iranian TV regularly runs rabid anti Jewish programs, some about 'blood rituals' (As kf you don't know, there is a persistent myth in the Islamic world that Jews kidnap & murder non-Jews, especially children.  They then use their blood to make matzoh balls)

And of course Ahmadinejad's continuing anti Jewish, anti Israel, anti western statements are legendary.

The reality is that Jews in Iran have a ghetto mentality.  "We are a minority, just stay quiet, we have to be treated as second-class citizens. So what if they don't employ us in the government sector or in the army or in high posts? We have our trading businesses, and we can become doctors or engineers.'"  Frighteningly like Germany in the 1930's.

Iran may be a 'model Islamic state', but it's no way near Jew friendly.

[De Selby]

RileyMc,

why can't you proffer even one exampleof an Islamic state that practices that 'tenet'? 

There is only one Islamic theocracy: Iran.  It does enshrine the principle of tolerance in its laws.  The problem is that you choose not to believe the evidence.  I will provide below pretty serious articles, rather than a collection of quotes that you no doubt cribbed from someone else's site without citing the original compiler.

A decent review of available evidence shows that not only are Jews in Iran treated like other Iranians, they vocally condemn Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial (via their elected parliament member!), and participate in Iranian society to the extent that they served the Revolution, the Iran-Iraq war, and now disgust at projects to offer them money to leave Iran.


http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/02/03/intl/intl.3.html

Take it from me, the Jewish community here faces no difficulties. If some people left after the revolution, maybe it's because they were scared," says Farangis Hassidim, a forceful but good-humored woman who is charge of the only Jewish hospital in Iran. She adds: "Our position here is not as bad as people abroad may think. We practice our religion freely, we have all our festivals, we have our own schools and kindergartens."

For her, the well-equipped hospital in central Tehran is a model of religious harmony. "We have about 200 staff, 30 percent of them Jewish," she says. "These days, I'd say about 5 percent of our patients are Jewish, the rest are Muslims." A sign outside the hospital reads in Hebrew: "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0427/p01s03-wome.html

Anti-Semitism historically 'rare'

Historically, say Jewish leaders, anti-Semitism here is rare, a fact they say is often lost on critics outside, especially in Israel, where many Iranian Jews have relatives. Still, the Jewish community has thinned by more than two-thirds since Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, to some 25,000; the largest exodus took place soon after the Islamic Republic was formed, though a modest flow out continues.

"Our problem is that the Israel issue is not solved, and that affects us here," says one Iranian Jew who asked not to be named.

Part of that coexistence has been gratitude for the Dr. Sapir Hospital, a Jewish charity hospital that would have closed years ago, but for subsidies from Jews inside and outside Iran, doctors say.

During the 1979 revolution, the hospital refused to hand over those wounded in clashes with the security forces of the pro-West Shah Reza Pahlavi. Ayatollah Khomeini later sent a personal representative to express his thanks. Ahmadinejad, too, has made a $27,000 donation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5367892.stm

Mr Ahmedinejad has repeatedly used rabid anti-Israeli rhetoric - slogans like "wipe Israel off the map" - and most controversially he has questioned the number killed in the Holocaust during World War II.

Mr Mohtamed has been outspoken in his condemnation of the president's views - in itself a sign that there is some space for Jews in Iran to express themselves.

 
President Ahmedinejad has repeatedly used anti-Israeli rhetoric 

"It's very regrettable to see a horrible tragedy so far reaching as the Holocaust being denied ... it was a very big insult to Jews all around the world," says Mr Mohtamed, who has also strongly condemned the exhibition of cartoons about the Holocaust organised by an Iranian newspaper owned by the Tehran municipality.

Despite the offence Mahmoud Ahmedinejad has caused to Jews around the world, his office recently donated money for Tehran's Jewish hospital.

Nice try RileyMc-you should read what the Jews of Iran have to say for themselves before you conclude what is or is not the law and custom of Iran. 

[The Rabbi]

Yes, the comments of people published with their names under shadow of a totalitarian regime are always reliable and truthful.
OK, so they aren't.  In fact, the best that can be said is that the gov't isnt rounding them up and killing them.  I guess that's something.
In fact Jews are barred from different areas of life, including gov't and other "sensitive" areas, like banking.  Travel is severely restricted, especially to Israel.
They are not free citizens, in the sense we understand the term.

[Paddy]

There is only one Islamic theocracy: Iran.  It does enshrine the principle of tolerance in its laws.  The problem is that you choose not to believe the evidence.  I will provide below pretty serious articles, rather than a collection of quotes that you no doubt cribbed from someone else's site without citing the original compiler.

Here are quotes directly from your 'serious articles' demonstrating the 'principle of tolerance':

"Privately, there are grumbles about discrimination, much of it of a social or bureaucratic nature"

A woman teacher says she has been passed by for promotion several times because she is Jewish and now hopes to emigrate to Los Angeles. A car-parts dealer says Jews have to wait much longer for travel documents and exit visas.

The most pressing complaint is that, despite many petitions to parliament, Jewish schools must open on Saturdays, the Jewish Sabbath.

Contacts with the Jewish state are banned, although some visit through third countries, while mail is usually routed through London.

At an antiques shop in central Tehran, Isaac, the elderly owner, says many Jews who once owned shops along the broad, bustling avenue have left in the past 20 years.

Because Iran is so 'tolerant', that's why they left

The continuous Jewish presence in Iran predates Islam by more than a millennium.

Seems to me Islamic radicals are occupying Jewish land in Iran

Still, the Jewish community has thinned by more than two-thirds since Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, to some 25,000; the largest exodus took place soon after the Islamic Republic was formed, though a modest flow out continues.

Again, they're leaving because Iran is such a great place for Jews.

Strong anti-Zionist undercurrents developed in Iran  and across the Middle East  since Israel's creation in 1948. Those views came to a boil in Tehran after the 1967 war, when Israel crushed Arab foes and occupied the West Bank, Gaza, and Sinai. That war marked a turning point in Iranians' attitudes toward the Jewish state, and sometimes toward Iranian Jews.

"Jews here have great Iranian roots  they love Iran," says chairman Moresadegh. "Personally, I would stay in Iran no matter what. I speak in English, I pray in Hebrew, but my thinking is Persian."

He's Persian before he's Jewish, but the Islamofascsits don't care.  It's not about nationalism, it's about religion

About 25,000 Jews live in Iran and most are determined to remain no matter what the pressures - as proud of their Iranian culture as of their Jewish roots.

See my comment above

"Because of our long history here we are tolerated," says Jewish community leader Unees Hammami, who organised the prayers.

See comment above (again, Muslims occupying Jewish land)

Jews have lived in Persia for nearly 3,000 years - the descendants of slaves from Babylon saved by Cyrus the Great.

Ditto above

But there are legal problems for Jews in Iran - if one member of a Jewish family converts to Islam he can inherit all the family's property.

Jews cannot become army officers and the headmasters of the Jewish schools in Tehran are all Muslim, though there is no law that says this should be so.

More 'tolerance' and 'respect' 

"Whatever they say abroad is lies - we are comfortable in Iran - if you're not political and don't bother them then they won't bother you," he explains.

"We are Iranian and we have been living in Iran for more than 3,000 years," says the Jewish hospital director Ciamak Morsathegh.

"I am not going to leave - I will stay in Iran under any conditions," he declares.

That pretty much says it all

You have been hoisted with your own petard, shootinstudent. 

[De Selby]

Yes, the comments of people published with their names under shadow of a totalitarian regime are always reliable and truthful.
OK, so they aren't.  In fact, the best that can be said is that the gov't isnt rounding them up and killing them.  I guess that's something.
In fact Jews are barred from different areas of life, including gov't and other "sensitive" areas, like banking.  Travel is severely restricted, especially to Israel.
They are not free citizens, in the sense we understand the term.

Great, just provide some evidence to support that Iranian Jews are singled out for special oppression amongst Iranians.  It's true that Iran is an oppressive country-but that is true whatever religion you are in Iran, not just for Jews.

You have plenty above that indicates they are not singled out, and that they in fact are quite well represented as far as minorities go-is the Christian Science Monitor part of the conspiracy now too?

And what of the protections they receive and the guaranteed member of parliament? How does that fit in with a grand Iranian scheme to kill all Jews?

[De Selby]

RileyMc,

Yeah, that is in the article.  What exactly is your point?  They get passed over for promotions and somehow that's a sign of an ugly oppressive plan to eliminate Jews? Get serious.  Absolutely zero in these articles (or anywhere) indicates that there is an Iranian plot to kill all Jews.  If they hated all Jews, the Muslims who founded and continue to run Iran could easily just amend the constitution, not recognize their property rights, and expel them all to Israel like the Arab states did.  How you can reconcile your belief that Iranian Muslims must hate Jews with the fact that Jews have hospitals, schools, and MP's in Iran is really quite shocking.

The interviewees said exactly why people left in the article:  the Economy in Iran is crap.  That's not too shocking, that they would leave because there are no job opportunities, is it?  Most of Iran would probably come to America if they had a choice.  That's hardly proof of special hatred for Jews.

He's Persian before he's Jewish, but the Islamofascsits don't care.  It's not about nationalism, it's about religion

Except that the Islamic constitution says specifically that Jews are Iranians and have a right to practice their religion.  How do you explain that?

The Islamists took over Iran and established a theocracy and then...inserted some anti-Muslim stuff into the constitution to fool the rest of us? Or what?

And how do you explain the, oh, hospitals and donations to hospitals and Jewish religious schools!? Is that a sign that Islam commands Muslims to attack Jews?

It's really quite amazing.  You have to read the articles for any discrimination at all, and then conclude that it's proof Muslims are commanded to hate Jews.  If that's not letting your preconceptions determine what you see, I don't know what is.

The fact is, it is better to be Jewish in Iran than to be Muslim in Saudi Arabia.  You have more freedoms and more security being Jewish in Tehran than being an average Muslim in Jeddah.  There is no rational way you can twist that into "Islam persecutes Jews"

[The Rabbi]

Yes, the comments of people published with their names under shadow of a totalitarian regime are always reliable and truthful.
OK, so they aren't.  In fact, the best that can be said is that the gov't isnt rounding them up and killing them.  I guess that's something.
In fact Jews are barred from different areas of life, including gov't and other "sensitive" areas, like banking.  Travel is severely restricted, especially to Israel.
They are not free citizens, in the sense we understand the term.

Great, just provide some evidence to support that Iranian Jews are singled out for special oppression amongst Iranians.  It's true that Iran is an oppressive country-but that is true whatever religion you are in Iran, not just for Jews.

You have plenty above that indicates they are not singled out, and that they in fact are quite well represented as far as minorities go-is the Christian Science Monitor part of the conspiracy now too?

And what of the protections they receive and the guaranteed member of parliament? How does that fit in with a grand Iranian scheme to kill all Jews?

I dont need to provide any evidence that Jews are singled out for minority status among other minorities because I never claimed that.  Your claim was the Jews were respected and well treated under the Islamic regime.  That is obviously not true.  It might be that every minority is ill treated, but that is irrelevant to your initial claim.

I will mention the Jews are kings in comparison to how the Bahai's are treated.

[Paddy]

Once again, ss, your rampant all consuming fanaticism prevents any sort of pragmatic discussion with you.  The links you provided to support your opinion instead contradict it.  It's clear that in practice, Jews aren't treated very well in Iran.  They're subject to discrimination and exclusion, as well as a constant barrage of murderous antisemitism coming from the government.  There is a continual stream of lies from state sponsored media.  Holocaust denial, so-called 'blood rituals', the continuing myth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, all spewed regularly by official government sources.  Yet to you, this demonstrates 'respect for Jews and their religion' simply because, what, they're not yet being rounded up and killed?   Well, they weren't in 1930's Germany either, but it didn't take long, did it?

Iran's problem is that it's ruled by backwards 7th century religious fanatics. There's no way of determining how many, but a large percentage of Iranians want to overthrow the mullahs and ayatollahs and form a democracy.  They want to westernize.  If an 'Islamic state' is such a great way to live, answer me this:  Why, with over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, are there no other Islamic states? 

How is it that the overwhelming majority of those 1 billion seem to live peaceably all over the world under various kinds of governments?  Why are there only a really small percentage of those 1 billion engaged in violent extremism in the name of Islam? 

[De Selby]

If an 'Islamic state' is such a great way to live, answer me this:  Why, with over 1 billion Muslims worldwide, are there no other Islamic states? 

There's an easy answer to that: Most Muslim countries aren't functioning democracies.  If they were, they would be voting for Islamic governments like they did in every single country that has ever held a vote with a Muslim population. 

Who said, btw, that Iran was a great way to live? What I said was that Islamic law is clear on the point that Jews and Judaism are to be respected.  Have we settled that question finally?

How is it that the overwhelming majority of those 1 billion seem to live peaceably all over the world under various kinds of governments?  Why are there only a really small percentage of those 1 billion engaged in violent extremism in the name of Islam? 

Because Islam clearly forbids the kinds of things terrorists do.  It should not be surprising that most religious Muslims don't do these things.

Nice of you to quit claiming anything about Iran-it was starting to get silly.




Rabbi,

I will mention the Jews are kings in comparison to how the Bahai's are treated.

True.  The treatment of Bahai's has been savage, and Israel has been good to give them a relatively safe headquarters. 

I should have said "Jewish religion is respected" instead.  They are allowed to practice their faith as they see fit; hence, the abuse against them is by virtue of their being Iranians, not because of their Jewish identity.

[Paddy]

We've gotten way off track, but matis' in post #50 explained the close relationship between Jews and Christians IMO.  fistful completely ignores the legitimate and continuing covenants God has with the Jews, even though Rabbi tried to explain it to him.  His claim regarding 'replacement theology' is completely bogus, there is no such thing because the original covenants still prevail.  Jews have some very good, scriptural reasons for not recognizing Jesus as Messiah.  This in no way excludes them from God's kingdom.  To so assert is exclusionary and legalistic, has no scriptural basis, and does not represent true Christendom.

[Stand_watie]

We've gotten way off track, but matis' in post #50 explained the close relationship between Jews and Christians IMO.  fistful completely ignores the legitimate and continuing covenants God has with the Jews, even though Rabbi tried to explain it to him.  His claim regarding 'replacement theology' is completely bogus, there is no such thing because the original covenants still prevail.  Jews have some very good, scriptural reasons for not recognizing Jesus as Messiah.  This in no way excludes them from God's kingdom.  To so assert is exclusionary and legalistic, has no scriptural basis, and does not represent true Christendom.

A "covenant" is by definition a Covenant. Obviously a covenent of G-d's is eternal.