Author Topic: 'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'  (Read 14991 times)

matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2006, 06:30:20 PM »
Stand_watie,

I was following this thread without intending to post because it has degenerated into a theological contest.

I know you didn't intend this with your question, but this is what it has become, hasn't it?


I once posted that I thought that believing Christians and believing Jews must unite to fight the degeneracy that has overtaken Western society and the Islamo-fascist threat that will wipe us out unless we wake up and fight it together.


Christianity has grown out of Judaism and there are no other religions I know of that share values as closely as do these two.

I feel the urgency of the need for us to unite as strongly as ever.



But we must unite as followers of two separate religions who respect each others beliefs without having to reconcile them to each other.  Jewish and Christian theology can never be reconciled.  NEVER.  Jews rarely seek to convert Christians but Christians usually cannot refrain from sharing their "good News".

Today in America any such attempt can lead only to acrimony.

But for almost 2 thousand years this has lead to the Jews being even more persecuted, expelled and killed.


Christian rulers have periodically down through the centuries compelled Jewish leaders to debate the merits of Judaism and to explain why Jews reject the divinity of Jesus.  The Jews always sought ways to avoid such debates but were usually compelled to participate.

Since religious Jews had to learn Hebrew starting around age 3 and a half are exhorted to study Torah every single day as well as Talmud and the commentaries, the contest was never fair.  It wasn't fair to the Christians because it was rare to find one who could compete in his knowledge of Torah.  Only one who has immersed himself in the study of Torah in Hebrew all his life can even begin to comprehend its profundity.  And it was grossly unfair to the Jews forced to participate because this  brought them unspeakably horrible consequences.


We must unite as equals without trying to prove to each other that our own beliefs are better.


As a Jew I will never accept Jesus as the Messiah.  Many Jews down through the ages have accepted Jesus -- on pain of death -- converted by the sword.  Knowing what they faced it is not for me to judge them.


But I thank G-d that enough Jews chose death over conversion so that, paradoxically, the Jewish people live.  And I and my children and my grand-children are here.  And so is Israel.


I read the New Testament simply to try to understand what Christians believe.  From a religious perspective, the NT is no more a divine book to me than is the Bahgavad Gita or the Upanishads.  There is no use in quoting from the NT to a Jew when he accords the book no religious validity.


I have not the slightest wish to insult you or anyone else reading this.  But if I approached you with the idea that you would burn in hell unless you converted to Judaism, you might begin to understand how the Jews feel about this.

Nothing wrong with any of these books.  They simply are not a part of Judaism.

If this thread continues it can only end in acrimony and will most likely be shut down.


I think that believing Christians stand with and support Israel for the same reasons that I want us to unite to save our civilization.

It is not called a Judeo-Christian civilization for nothing.  


But any attempts to reconcile Judaism to Christianity or vice-versa can only end badly.  Nor is there any necessity for such attempts.


I am very grateful for Christian support of Jews and Israel.  The irony is that such people do more for Israel than do most secular, leftist Jews.


But what good is such support if the price is that I must degrade my Judaism?  True Judaism (which today means Orthodox Judaism) is a closed canon.  All Halachic questions that Rabbis deal with is extrapolated from this.  They must adapt their rulings to ever new circumstances -- without in ANY WAY compromising Torah.  That is its glory.  Thinking that one can "improve" Judaism, bring it up to date, so to speak is a desecration of G-d's name.  If we could "improve upon G-d, then what did we need him for in the first place?


Do I make sense?


I am direct in what I say but I do mean it with the greatest of respect.



matis
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cosine

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2006, 06:57:53 PM »
Great post, matis. Your reason for staying out of the thread was why I held off from posting too (but eventually failed).

Now, I hope this isn't too intrusive, and no offense intended, but I thought that you were Catholic. If I recall correctly (which I don't always do) aren't you the one who had a daughter enter a convent?
Andy

matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2006, 07:09:58 PM »
Quote from: cosine
Great post, matis. Your reason for staying out of the thread was why I held off from posting too (but eventually failed).

Now, I hope this isn't too intrusive, and no offense intended, but I thought that you were Catholic. If I recall correctly (which I don't always do) aren't you the one who had a daughter enter a convent?
No offense at all, cosine.


My daughter, who graduated a month ago (a valedictorian if you will allow me to boast) attended a Chassidic Yeshiva, which is an Orthodox Jewish religious school, roughly equivalent to high school.


As far as recalling correctly goes, I was telling a good friend who is around 68 about Rush Limbough's joke about having half his brain tied behind his back.

"Wait 'till he gets around our age", I told him, "and he won't be joking anymore." Wink


matis
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cosine

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2006, 07:17:29 PM »
Quote from: matis
Quote from: cosine
Great post, matis. Your reason for staying out of the thread was why I held off from posting too (but eventually failed).

Now, I hope this isn't too intrusive, and no offense intended, but I thought that you were Catholic. If I recall correctly (which I don't always do) aren't you the one who had a daughter enter a convent?
No offense at all, cosine.


My daughter, who graduated a month ago (a valedictorian if you will allow me to boast) attended a Chassidic Yeshiva, which is an Orthodox Jewish religious school, roughly equivalent to high school.


As far as recalling correctly goes, I was telling a good friend who is around 68 about Rush Limbough's joke about having half his brain tied behind his back.

"Wait 'till he gets around our age", I told him, "and he won't be joking anymore." Wink


matis
Congratulations to your daughter on her achievements.

I'm not so sure it's funny to joke about losing half your brain though when you're only 18, especially when the joke hits home a little harder than it should. Wink Cheesy I searched the forum, (something I should have done first) and it was MaterDei who's daughter entered the novitiate. My apologies.
Andy

matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2006, 07:27:33 PM »
Quote from: cosine
Congratulations to your daughter on her achievements.

I'm not so sure it's funny to joke about losing half your brain though when you're only 18, especially when the joke hits home a little harder than it should. wink big_smile I searched the forum, (something I should have done first) and it was MaterDei who's daughter entered the novitiate. My apologies.
Thank you, cosine.

And no apoligies in the slightest necessary.



But I do have a proposition for you:


Since you mention a bit of concern about your memory at age 18, how about I'll trade you my memory for yours, even Steven.  Cheesy

(Feel any better, now?)



matis
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grampster

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2006, 07:17:32 AM »
Matis,
Great post my friend.  I had thought we'd pretty much beat this debate to death a few months ago.

Each person has a decision to make regarding his beliefs.  There is a wealth of information available, as well as testimony.  Beating the other guy over the the head with something, even if be the truth, is less effective than how one leads his own life.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2006, 10:33:44 AM »
Quote from: grampster
Matis,
Great post my friend.  I had thought we'd pretty much beat this debate to death a few months ago.
Thank you grampster.



Quote
Each person has a decision to make regarding his beliefs.  There is a wealth of information available, as well as testimony.  Beating the other guy over the the head with something, even if be the truth, is less effective than how one leads his own life.
Somehow, grampster, it takes me two pages to say what you can say in a short paragraph.



matis
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2006, 10:43:24 AM »
Quote from: matis
Stand_watie,

I was following this thread without intending to post because it has degenerated into a theological contest.

I know you didn't intend this with your question, but this is what it has become, hasn't it?


I once posted that I thought that believing Christians and believing Jews must unite to fight the degeneracy that has overtaken Western society and the Islamo-fascist threat that will wipe us out unless we wake up and fight it together.


Christianity has grown out of Judaism and there are no other religions I know of that share values as closely as do these two.

I feel the urgency of the need for us to unite as strongly as ever.



But we must unite as followers of two separate religions who respect each others beliefs without having to reconcile them to each other.  Jewish and Christian theology can never be reconciled.  NEVER.  Jews rarely seek to convert Christians but Christians usually cannot refrain from sharing their "good News".
You're correct, I hadn't intended that. FWIW the theological stuff that I've posted has been in response.


Quote
I read the New Testament simply to try to understand what Christians believe.  From a religious perspective, the NT is no more a divine book to me than is the Bahgavad Gita or the Upanishads.  There is no use in quoting from the NT to a Jew when he accords the book no religious validity.
I'm well aware of that, however I was referring 'The Rabbi' to what I believe and why I believe it, not expecting him to agree with it.

Quote
I have not the slightest wish to insult you or anyone else reading this.  But if I approached you with the idea that you would burn in hell unless you converted to Judaism, you might begin to understand how the Jews feel about this.
Well I think I begin to understand, because I've heard that from others, about my own beliefs.
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matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2006, 11:06:28 AM »
Stand_watie,

I don't in the slightest blame you for seeking answers to such questions.  

It's just that this cannot be done on a public forum without its degenerating into a contest.  The subject is just too hot.  We're dealing with the very ground of our being here and I don't know how this can be kept cool and rational.  For myself I have learned to NEVER discuss it with anyone of a different religion.  Unless that is I'm pissed at him, I've lost it and I want to hurt him.  (I have been know to do that [grin]).

I don't think we feel that way about each other here.


I think you need to research on the net, perhaps Orthodox Jewish and other sites.  Perhaps discuss it in person or privately with knowledgeable Jews (kinda rare) who are willing to so.  But please don't expect any kind of "resolution".  Any resolution would simply be the conceding of issues that shouldn't be conceded by true believers on either side.

Be well, friend.


matis
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2006, 11:12:01 AM »
Quote from: matis
Stand_watie,

I don't in the slightest blame you for seeking answers to such questions...I think you need to research on the net, perhaps Orthodox Jewish and other sites.  Perhaps discuss it in person or privately with knowledgeable Jews (kinda rare) who are willing to so.  But please don't expect any kind of "resolution".  Any resolution would simply be the conceding of issues that shouldn't be conceded by true believers on either side.

Be well, friend.


matis
I'm a little baffled here. To which post of mine are you referring?
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2006, 03:09:15 PM »
Quote
But we must unite as followers of two separate religions who respect each others beliefs without having to reconcile them to each other.  Jewish and Christian theology can never be reconciled.  NEVER.  Jews rarely seek to convert Christians but Christians usually cannot refrain from sharing their "good News".


You're correct, I hadn't intended that. FWIW the theological stuff that I've posted has been in response.


 I read the New Testament simply to try to understand what Christians believe.  From a religious perspective, the NT is no more a divine book to me than is the Bahgavad Gita or the Upanishads.  There is no use in quoting from the NT to a Jew when he accords the book no religious validity.

I'm well aware of that, however I was referring 'The Rabbi' to what I believe and why I believe it, not expecting him to agree with it.
(Darn, the quote and bold functions aren't working for me.  And it's YOUR fault Stand-watie because, as you may remember, you're the one who taught me how to use these. Smiley


Stand-watie, the thread veer started early, but seeking to understand why Christians support and stand with Israel on a mixed and public forum is not likely, it seems to me, to get you the understanding you want.  It would be very difficult if kept strictly to political considerations.  And it would be very difficult to keep the discussion to that.


And I guess I'm mixing in what I remember of some of your past posts.


You seem to have a large interest in understanding Judaism and in the differences between that and Christianity and even in differences of doctrine between various Christian points of view.  And I have, from the beginning, felt your interest to be sincere and friendly.  I just don't think such an endeavor has a prayer (grin) on a forum like this, excellent though APS is.

It's just too hot for some others to deal with on the same basis -- intellectual and not competitive.  I'll admit that when I read some of the posts, I felt myself becoming a bit "warm" and wanting to answer in kind.  (Actually, I DID, didn't I?)


I'm struggling for words to indicate that I'm not in any way criticizing YOU -- just wanting to point out that this endeavor doesn't work very well.

Without your meaning to it stirs up the kind of feelings that have led to acrimony between Christians and Jews gong all the way back.


Personally I believe that this kind of exchange CAN take place, but only in a SAFE space with each participant taking constant care to monitor his own reactions and to re-assure the other participants of his sincere intentions.

This ain't like discussing the weather or even baseball.  It's just a very hot subject to which we each bring our own past experiences, associations, attitudes and emotions.

 
matis



(Edited to add that the functions didn't work in preview but did when I clicked on submit.)
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2006, 04:15:02 PM »
Quote from: matis
Quote
But we must unite as followers of two separate religions who respect each others beliefs without having to reconcile them to each other.  Jewish and Christian theology can never be reconciled.  NEVER.  Jews rarely seek to convert Christians but Christians usually cannot refrain from sharing their "good News".


You're correct, I hadn't intended that. FWIW the theological stuff that I've posted has been in response.


 I read the New Testament simply to try to understand what Christians believe.  From a religious perspective, the NT is no more a divine book to me than is the Bahgavad Gita or the Upanishads.  There is no use in quoting from the NT to a Jew when he accords the book no religious validity.

I'm well aware of that, however I was referring 'The Rabbi' to what I believe and why I believe it, not expecting him to agree with it.
(Darn, the quote and bold functions aren't working for me.  And it's YOUR fault Stand-watie because, as you may remember, you're the one who taught me how to use these. Smiley


Stand-watie, the thread veer started early, but seeking to understand why Christians support and stand with Israel on a mixed and public forum is not likely, it seems to me, to get you the understanding you want.  It would be very difficult if kept strictly to political considerations.  And it would be very difficult to keep the discussion to that.


And I guess I'm mixing in what I remember of some of your past posts.


You seem to have a large interest in understanding Judaism and in the differences between that and Christianity and even in differences of doctrine between various Christian points of view.  And I have, from the beginning, felt your interest to be sincere and friendly.  I just don't think such an endeavor has a prayer (grin) on a forum like this, excellent though APS is.
It's true that I do, but that wasn't at all my intent with this thread. I suppose the thread title perhaps appears as a question - when in fact it's the name of a book I was recommending, which answered those questions quite well. So far everything I've seen posted in the thread tends to confirm the author of the book's analysis.
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"Never again"

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matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2006, 05:02:48 PM »
Quote from: Stand-Watie
It's true that I do, but that wasn't at all my intent with this thread. I suppose the thread title perhaps appears as a question - when in fact it's the name of a book I was recommending, which answered those questions quite well. So far everything I've seen posted in the thread tends to confirm the author of the book's analysis.
I kind of did forget about the book once I got into the thread veer.

I'm shopping for the book right now.


Best deal so far is at Overstock.com @ $12.34 + $1.40 shipping.


I look forward to reading it.


Thanks,


matis
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2006, 02:39:27 AM »
Quote from: matis
Quote from: Stand-Watie
It's true that I do, but that wasn't at all my intent with this thread. I suppose the thread title perhaps appears as a question - when in fact it's the name of a book I was recommending, which answered those questions quite well. So far everything I've seen posted in the thread tends to confirm the author of the book's analysis.
I kind of did forget about the book once I got into the thread veer.

I'm shopping for the book right now.


Best deal so far is at Overstock.com @ $12.34 + $1.40 shipping.


I look forward to reading it.


Thanks,


matis
I'm sure you'll find it quite informative. There was a particular citation in there, it was a quote from Hebrew language publication from the early Jewish zionist times (I want to say about the turn of the century) that reminded me of your thinking. I've got a flight to catch right now - I'll get back to you with that quote when I get back into town. Best regards.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

matis

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2006, 03:44:18 AM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
I'm sure you'll find it quite informative. There was a particular citation in there, it was a quote from Hebrew language publication from the early Jewish zionist times (I want to say about the turn of the century) that reminded me of your thinking. I've got a flight to catch right now - I'll get back to you with that quote when I get back into town. Best regards.
Thank you, Stand_watie.



matis
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LAK

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2006, 04:55:54 AM »
QUOTE: "This is a book about politics and religion, Christians and Jews, anti-Semites and righteous Gentiles. It would be difficult to find more emotional and controversial topics about which to write. Anyone who wants to objectively analyze my ideas on these difficult subjects will need to factor in my background and the biases I may bring to my analysis... " ENDQUOTE

This is an intriguing subject for me, and I have a very difficult time wondering how many people could take such a book seriously. There are many subjects to address here - and there surely needs to be some continuity starting from the beginning to the present as it applies to each subject individually.

The State of Israel is not a "Jewish state". It is a secular and very socialist state. Many Christians seem to confuse the State of Israel with the Old Testament people Israel.

The Jewish religion and Christianity have nothing in common; other than that they were once the same religion until a time in history when they separated and went different directions from each other for one specific and irreconcilable reason. One recognized, and recognizes, the incarnation of God as His only Son, Jesus Christ - the Messiah - the Promise of the Old Testament, of whom the prophets spake - the New Covenant. The other rejected Him and continued practicing under the Old Covenant.

It's sort of like "Smith" & "Wesson" - except that they are literally antithesis to one another. It is incontrovertable Christian teaching - from Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself - that to reject Him means separation from God. Forever. On the otherhand to Jews, who practice the Old Testament religion, proclaiming Jesus Christ to be True God and True man is a blasphemy. All the rosey dialogue and "sharing" is never going to change that. It is alot of emotional filler and no substance. The only way it can be any other way is dissolve a significant part of one or both religions.

"Righteous Gentiles" is an interesting term - I can not find a single gentile mentioned in the Old Testament that is referred to as "righteous". Who invented that one?

Arabs are semites. It would seem to me that the problem is people who are not semites fomenting conflicts and bringing about the destruction of all semites - regardless of the which religion they practice and in which middle east country they live.

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The Rabbi

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2006, 05:31:45 AM »
Quote from: LAK
"Righteous Gentiles" is an interesting term - I can not find a single gentile mentioned in the Old Testament that is referred to as "righteous". Who invented that one?
"...Noach ish tzaddik tamim haya b'dorosav" -Gen 6:9

I could find plenty of others, like Rachav in Yehoshua but I wont spend the time.  As for the rest of the post, it is of similar quality.
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2006, 07:03:05 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: LAK
"Righteous Gentiles" is an interesting term - I can not find a single gentile mentioned in the Old Testament that is referred to as "righteous". Who invented that one?
"...Noach ish tzaddik tamim haya b'dorosav" -Gen 6:9

I could find plenty of others, like Rachav in Yehoshua..
Melchizedek of Genesis 14* is the first mentioned outside the Adamic - Abrahamic geneological line that I can think of. Mentioned again in the Christian book of Hebrews 7**.

The term  used in the book I think, is referring to gentiles who endangered themselves sheltering Jews during  the holocaust.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/righteous/



* And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high Gd.
And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

**For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high Gd, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of Gd; abideth a priest continually.Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
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LAK

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2006, 01:59:53 AM »
Stand_watie,

And who precisely bestowed the honor to those deemed "righteous gentiles" in these Old Testament passages - and who bestowed the honor from the end of the OT period through 1963?

This raises another question though; if a "non-jew" can be declared a "righteous gentile" - what is the opposite? Since all "non-jews" are expected to abide and be subject to the Noahide law, what are those considered on the outside?

If you are going to quote scripture defining "righteous gentiles", what does your law and tradition say about those who are not, and do not subject thelselves to the Noahide law?

Rabbi,

I see. So the State of Israel is not a secular socialist state? What is it then, a theocratic republic?

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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2006, 03:56:35 PM »
Quote from: LAK
Stand_watie,

And who precisely bestowed the honor to those deemed "righteous gentiles" in these Old Testament passages..
From my reading, G-d.

Quote
- and who bestowed the honor from the end of the OT period through 1963?
I've no idea.

Quote
This raises another question though; if a "non-jew" can be declared a "righteous gentile" - what is the opposite? Since all "non-jews" are expected to abide and be subject to the Noahide law, what are those considered on the outside?
The Bible is certainly rich with examples. Try I Kings.

Quote
If you are going to quote scripture defining "righteous gentiles", what does your law and tradition say about those who are not, and do not subject thelselves to the Noahide law?
I would be hard pressed to put it down without taking a great deal of time and bandwidth. I suppose the first 16 verses of the 2nd Chapter of Romans is as good a synopsis as any.


G-d's Righteous Judgment
  You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.  Now we know that G-d's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.  So when you, a mere human, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape G-d's judgment?  Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that G-d's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?  But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of G-d's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
G-d "will repay everyone according to what they have done."  To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For G-d does not show favoritism.
     All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.  For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in G-d's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law). They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when G-d judges everyone's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

LAK

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2006, 10:34:49 PM »
Stand_watie,

So there were no "righteous gentiles" from the time of the last book of the OT through those bestowed the title in 1963?

[LAK]"If you are going to quote scripture defining "righteous gentiles", what does your law and tradition say about those who are not, and do not subject thelselves to the Noahide law?"

[Stand_watie]"I would be hard pressed to put it down without taking a great deal of time and bandwidth. I suppose the first 16 verses of the 2nd Chapter of Romans is as good a synopsis as any"

What has the writing of a christian like St. Paul (a traitor as far as the jews of the period would be concerned) to the christian church in Rome have to do with jewish law and tradition concerning my question?

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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2006, 12:59:20 AM »
Quote from: LAK
Stand_watie,

So there were no "righteous gentiles" from the time of the last book of the OT through those bestowed the title in 1963?
You asked who bestowed the honor, not whether there were any or not. I don't know who bestowed the honor. Of course there were many who were.

Quote from: LAK
What has the writing of a christian like St. Paul (a traitor as far as the jews of the period would be concerned) to the christian church in Rome have to do with jewish law and tradition concerning my question?
You didn't ask what Jewish law and tradition dictated, and I don't know the answer if that was your intended question. You asked what "your" law and tradition says - being a Christian myself, I gave the answer from my perspective.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

LAK

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2006, 01:22:16 AM »
Stand_watie,

Beggin your pardon, I did mean jewish law and tradition.

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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2006, 01:46:05 AM »
Quote from: LAK
Stand_watie,

Beggin your pardon, I did mean jewish law and tradition.

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No problem; I'd have to defer you to Rabbi or Matis on that.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Paddy

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Re: 'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2007, 04:59:26 PM »
Quote
We already know from the last 58 years of photgraphed history that negotiation doesn't work, ceasefires don't work, land-for-peace doesn't work and recognition of a Palestinian state does not work.  The Jihadists are gonna do their damndest to kill all the Jews and eradicate Israel.

Now let me digress:  I find this "Palestinian" thing amusing.  Let me offer a bit of doggerel from BEFORE there was any sort of "Israel" as came into being in 1948.  I learned this bit of a song back in the mid-1940s, as best I recollect:

"Come all with big, long noses; come join the League of Moses; fight, fight, fight for Palestine.

Scorners of pork and gravy, come join the Yiddish Navy, fight, fight, fight for Palestine."

Sounds to me that Jews = Palestinians was The Way It Was, once upon a time.
Repeated for truth, with a big 'thank you' to Art.  Clearly, this comes from 70 odd years observing the real world rather than some religious or political dogma.