Author Topic: 'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'  (Read 16056 times)

Perd Hapley

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2006, 08:57:49 PM »
Yes, "replacement theology" is a term created as a pejorative by dispensationalists, often with an implication of anti-semitism on the part of non-dispensationalists.  Perhaps the afore-mentioned Jewish author did not understand this.  I believe the more traditional view is called "covenant theology," or something like that.  

Rabbi, it is not as if Jews were tossed aside.  This would not make any sense in light of the Jewish background of the first Christians.  The following will be shocking to some and probably very offensive to Jews.  I don't mean to hurt any feelings, but the question is under discussion.  If you are Jewish and wish not to be offended, I have given you fair warning. Judaism as a race and as a national religion with a theocratic state was only a temporary phase of the Christian church which was established in the third chapter of Genesis.  That is, all true believers, from Enoch to Abraham to Moses and right up to John the Baptist and Paul, were Christians because they trusted in the Messiah (the Christ) that God would provide.  Once the promised seed (Jesus the Christ) was crucified, that phase was ended, and Christianity/Judaism outgrew the racial boundaries that began with Abraham.

Genesis Chap. 3
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
       "Cursed are you above all the livestock
       and all the wild animals!
       You will crawl on your belly
       and you will eat dust
       all the days of your life.

 15 And I will put enmity
       between you and the woman,
       and between your offspring [a] and hers;
       he will crush your head,
       and you will strike his heel."
This is known as the protoevangelium - the first promise of the Messiah.

 
Stand_watie, I think you misunderstand Paul's teaching on this, which seems fairly clear to me.  From Abraham until today, there have been two Israels - the actual (spiritual) Israel consisting of people who have trusted in God the Father and in His Messiah, Jesus; and the national (racial) Israel.  The Messianic Jew of today is a member of both groups, while Gentile Christians are real, spiritual Jews.  "Jews" who do not believe in Christ are members of the racial and/or national Israel, while denying the God and the Messiah which their patriarchs and prophets believed in.

Romans, Chap. 9
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Galations, Chap. 3
 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

The Rabbi

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2006, 03:49:46 AM »
That statement is essentially what my understanding of Christianity is.

(I'll add that I am laughing too hard to be offended.)
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Laurent du Var

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2006, 07:47:28 AM »
With Euro-weenies who have lost confidence in their civilization,....

  - How does this work ? I always read Euro this Euro that, does it mean all the
 Europeans are the same, like the Norvegian and the Greek would think together
about their attitude towards Israel ? Last time I checked most of us have lots of  
confidence in our civilisation, otherwise we'd be Americans by now.  

Europeans as a matter of political reality must be anti-Jewish, or at least only anti-Israel (for now until population shifts and sharia can be enforced).  Hate the Jews so you can maintain ties with the Middle East to check the USA, right?

 - Interesting. Really. I haven't thought about that.  A matter of political reality,
no less. This is so wrong not even the contrary can be true. Say, what's your profession again ?

Europeans are definitely anti-semites, as a general statement.

 - No, they are not, your general statement is wrong and I don't even know how  I would tend you my other cheek after a slap like that. Maybe you would like to kiss my bigger ones in the meantime ?


Just to stay on this topics level, which is way below usual APS standard,
I, as a, antisemite and arabic sharia admiring catholic support Israel
because I love Matis Yahu, I have both his discs, bought and not pirated, and come the day he'll give a concert in the South of France I'll be the happiest Euroweenie
ever !
Vada a bordo, Cazzo!

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2006, 08:26:33 AM »
The French.  Irrevelant for over 200 years.
Going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordion.
French surplus military rifles: never fired and dropped only once
Cheese-eating surrender monkeys
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Laurent du Var

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2006, 10:17:05 AM »
Mel Gibson
Vada a bordo, Cazzo!

Perd Hapley

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2006, 10:35:16 AM »
Quote from: Laurent du Var
Mel Gibson
And?
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Laurent du Var

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2006, 11:03:03 AM »
Well- I thought I'd just post something stupid,
like The "wannabe" Rabbi did.
Could be that I'm just POed.

Sorry
Vada a bordo, Cazzo!

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2006, 11:07:11 AM »
Frenchbashing! So innovative, so new, is what I am thinkink!

The Rabbi

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2006, 11:28:54 AM »
"There is no anti-Semitism in France." -Jacques Chirac.
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grampster

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2006, 11:30:00 AM »
You folks need to lighten up.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2006, 01:17:37 PM »
Quote from: Laurent du Var
Mel Gibson
I assume you're referring to Gibson's anti-semitic remarks during his drunk driving arrest? From my limited reading about him (Mel Gibson is an 'old school' or at the least grew under the fatherhood of such) Catholic who are quite different theologically than the 'dispensationalist' Christians in America, although they share many religious tenets.

I've already referenced (and been rebuked for) the term 'replacement theology', (which my dad told me on the phone this morning used to be called 'covenant theology') which the Catholic church didn't disasociate with until 1965.

For what it's worth from my perspective, until the war with Iraq, French bashing from Americans typically was of the lighthearted Monty Python humor type variety, rather than real dislike, and I suspect came from exactly the same source (IE English vs French rivalry of the 10 - 19th centuries).

I won't join into it myself, as I know what it's like to be an American on a British messageboard.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

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Perd Hapley

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2006, 02:14:14 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
That statement is essentially what my understanding of Christianity is.

(I'll add that I am laughing too hard to be offended.)
Rabbi, are you referring to my post, and if so, which statement?  The whole thing?  I am also curious about what amuses you.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2006, 03:19:55 PM »
The whole thing is just amusing in how it picks and chooses and misinterprets.  It ignores, for example, the covenantal relationship between the Jewish people and G-d, one which is documented and spoken of many many times throughout Tanach.  It ignores the revelation at Sinai.  It ignores the statements that the Torah is eternal and unchanging.  It sees an allusion to a redeemer which is nowhere found in the Pentateuch.  It inserts such categories as "justification" which are totally alien to Tanach.
I don't think you are misrepresenting Christianity.  What you write is my impression of the theology.  I just find it amusing as all get out because it is so alien.  It is like someone reading the Declaration of Independence as a proto-Marxist document.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2006, 07:57:38 PM »
I should have added earlier that "replacement theology" comes from the misconception that non-dispensationalists believe that the object of God's promises, Israel, is replaced with the church.  Not so.  Rather, the promises have always been for believers, not for a nation or a race of people.  This is why the promised land was not so promising when the Israelites were idolatrous.  So, Rabbi, I don't think you can say that it "ignores...the covenantal relationship between the Jewish people and G-d."  Rather, it interprets it differently.  

Speaking of picking and choosing, how about this?
Quote
It sees an allusion to a redeemer which is nowhere found in the Pentateuch.
Why the Pentateuch?  There's more than five books in Tanach, are there not?  I searched the word "redeemer" on Bible Gateway and Blue Letter Bible and found about twenty uses of the word, all in the Old Testament, never in the New.  Usually, they refer to "the Lord" or to "God," so it would seem Jews already believed God was a Redeemer.  Why would not his instrument, the promised Messiah, also take part in this work of redemption?  

If justification is a concept unknown to your religion, I will take your word for it, but I wonder what is going on in this verse, if not justification:
Quote
Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
I don't know why you bring up Sinai (by which I assume you mean the Mosaic Law) or the eternal nature thereof.  But I assure you we Christians are well aware of Jesus' statements that the Law shall never pass away.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Perd Hapley

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2006, 04:23:19 AM »
RE: Art's comments

As I understand it, Palestinian used to refer to Jews or to Jewish Israelis.  But eventually, the world needed a term to refer to non-Jews living in, or refugees from, that area.  Perhaps this is more correct, though, as "Palestine" apparently comes from "Philistia."
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2006, 05:17:47 AM »
Quote from: fistful
I should have added earlier that "replacement theology" comes from the misconception that non-dispensationalists believe that the object of God's promises, Israel, is replaced with the church.  Not so.  Rather, the promises have always been for believers, not for a nation or a race of people.  This is why the promised land was not so promising when the Israelites were idolatrous.  So, Rabbi, I don't think you can say that it "ignores...the covenantal relationship between the Jewish people and G-d."  Rather, it interprets it differently.  

Speaking of picking and choosing, how about this?
Quote
It sees an allusion to a redeemer which is nowhere found in the Pentateuch.
Why the Pentateuch?  There's more than five books in Tanach, are there not?  I searched the word "redeemer" on Bible Gateway and Blue Letter Bible and found about twenty uses of the word, all in the Old Testament, never in the New.  Usually, they refer to "the Lord" or to "God," so it would seem Jews already believed God was a Redeemer.  Why would not his instrument, the promised Messiah, also take part in this work of redemption?  

If justification is a concept unknown to your religion, I will take your word for it, but I wonder what is going on in this verse, if not justification:
Quote
Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
I don't know why you bring up Sinai (by which I assume you mean the Mosaic Law) or the eternal nature thereof.  But I assure you we Christians are well aware of Jesus' statements that the Law shall never pass away.
Again, your comments ignore verses to the contrary.  On the unique relationship between G-d and Israel: Deut 7:6, "ki am kadosh l'HaShem Elokecha b'cha bachar haShem Elokekha...mikol ho'amim."  Or 4:7 "ki mi goy gadol asher lo Elokim krovim elav...."  And many many others.  Not one of these refers to belief.  Virtually all of them speak of nationhood and Israel's chosen place.
As for the Pentateuch, those 5 books are the word of G-d, and represent His will and His instruction.  The rest of the Prophets and Writings do not change anything in the first 5 but merely amplify and clarify what is already there.  For "savior" check Judges 3, on Osniel ben Kenaz.  "Salvation" here always means a physical/political salvation.  It is a Christian "innovation" to make that refer to spiritual matters.
And if Christians are aware that the Law will never pass away, why is it that among the most devout Christians I have met (and some of them wonderful people btw) virtually every one of them eats pork, shellfish, meat and milk, works on Satuday, etc etc?  If that isnt an abrogation of the Law, I dont know what is.
I am not arguing that Christians need to observe the laws of the Torah (they dont) but it seems disingenuous to argue this way.
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Stand_watie

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2006, 07:08:14 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
..And if Christians are aware that the Law will never pass away, why is it that among the most devout Christians I have met (and some of them wonderful people btw) virtually every one of them eats pork, shellfish, meat and milk, works on Satuday, etc etc?  If that isnt an abrogation of the Law, I dont know what is.
I am not arguing that Christians need to observe the laws of the Torah (they dont) but it seems disingenuous to argue this way.
Perhaps you should look at the distinction between "The Law" as described by the Torah and "The Law" as described by Christ and Paul and the disciples at the first council of Nicea.

I won't speak for fistful, as you can see we don't even agree upon specifics of whom the Abrahamic covenant applied to, but my own Christian belief is that "The Law" of the Torah is a portion of "the Law" as a whole. The Law of the Torah was sufficient  but unnecesary for those who observe the whole Law.

Abraham was made righteous by Faith 430 years before the law.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutbut not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
 
"Blessed are they
 whose transgressions are forgiven,
 whose sins are covered.
 Blessed is the man
 whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringnot only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believedthe God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.  Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as deadsince he was about a hundred years oldand that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousnessfor us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2006, 07:30:20 AM »
As I've mentioned, "The Law" as something distinct from what is contained in the Pentateuch is totally alien to our way of thinking.  "Justification" as a category of anything is also completely alien.  I do not even know what word they are translating to get that.  Further "Belief" as a substitute for action is totally without precedent in Judaism, as the numerous injunctions to follow the commandments makes clear.

In all this discussion shows, to me anyway, how Christianity is not a succesor religion to Judaism but something sui generis, just as Marxism is not a succesor to capitalism although it employs similar terms from economics.  That isnt to say that Christianity is bad or invalid, but the self-image of its place in the world is not consistent with prior teachings.
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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2006, 07:53:53 AM »
Quote
And if Christians are aware that the Law will never pass away, why is it that among the most devout Christians I have met (and some of them wonderful people btw) virtually every one of them eats pork, shellfish, meat and milk, works on Satuday, etc etc?  If that isnt an abrogation of the Law, I dont know what is.
I am not arguing that Christians need to observe the laws of the Torah (they dont) but it seems disingenuous to argue this way.
The "burden of the law" was "fulfilled", which means even though that Jesus character said that he didn't come to do away with it, it's done away with. Don't try to think about it logically or you'll get a headache.

It could be worse. You could be debating Messianics.

Stand_watie

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« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2006, 08:05:45 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
As I've mentioned, "The Law" as something distinct from what is contained in the Pentateuch is totally alien to our way of thinking.
I can certainly agree with that.

Quote
"Justification" as a category of anything is also completely alien.  I do not even know what word they are translating to get that.  Further "Belief" as a substitute for action is totally without precedent in Judaism, as the numerous injunctions to follow the commandments makes clear.
Christianity doesn't teach "belief" as a substitute for action, it teaches "Faith" as a predicate for action. "Belief" is a component of "Faith" just as is action. See the reference Abraham's Faith above, and include the many teachings in the New Testament about action, particularly Christ's commandments, and the Book of James (see below)

Quote
That isnt to say that Christianity is bad or invalid, but the self-image of its place in the world is not consistent with prior teachings.
Is there any group of people who are entirely consistent? Do you keep the entirety of the commandments in the Pentateuch as morally binding upon you? Or have subsequent Talmudic teachings altered your practice? I can't recall the last time I read a news article about a Jewish stoning (other than by Palestinians).





James 2

Faith and Deeds

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.  But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
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« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2006, 09:45:48 AM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
Quote
That isnt to say that Christianity is bad or invalid, but the self-image of its place in the world is not consistent with prior teachings.
Is there any group of people who are entirely consistent? Do you keep the entirety of the commandments in the Pentateuch as morally binding upon you? Or have subsequent Talmudic teachings altered your practice? I can't recall the last time I read a news article about a Jewish stoning (other than by Palestinians).
It depends on what you mean by consistent.  I think Judaism as practiced (or supposed to be) is the most consistent thing out there, given its parameters.  Yes, I do keep the entirety of the commandments as given, where that is possible.  Since I dont own an ox or a donkey I cannot keep the commandment not to plow with them together.  Since I dont have a Temple I cannot offer sacrifices.  Since we dont have a Sanhedrin we cannot sentence people to stoning.  Not that anyone would have an idea of what the procedure of the Sanhedrin was just from reading the NT.
As far as later Rabbinic enactments, the Torah explicitly empowers the rabbis to make such enactments and follow them.

Quote
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?
So I guess Martin Luther was mistaken?
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cosine

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« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2006, 11:04:02 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
So I guess Martin Luther was mistaken?
Yes, he was.
Andy

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« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2006, 12:58:08 PM »
Quote from: cosine
Quote from: The Rabbi
So I guess Martin Luther was mistaken?
Yes, he was.
OK, no argument from me.  But I'll bet millions of Protestants might beg to differ.
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« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2006, 01:33:48 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
But I'll bet millions of Protestants might beg to differ.
I'll bet that too. Smiley
Andy

Perd Hapley

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'Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State'
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2006, 01:34:18 PM »
Very few Protestants are going to agree with Luther's view of the relationship between faith, grace, works and salvation (especially if you mistakenly include all non-Catholics in that category).  He was but one of the many reformers of that time period.  It is interesting that Rabbi has so reacted to this particular verse, as it comes from the Epistle of James.  Luther himself called that book "an epistle of straw," as he doubted its canonicity.  The point of James is not that we earn our salvation by works, but that saving faith, by its nature, requires the believers to perform works.  In other words, if you're not behaving like a Christian, you probably are not one.  At the time in which James wrote, the Gnostics were teaching that sins committed by the physical body were unimportant.  While Luther believed the Christian can reject his faith, he preferred the sacraments of baptism and communion as proof of salvation and believed that the Christian sinned every day in word, thought and deed.  On the other hand, he also believed that the Holy Spirit produced good works in the believer.  I'm going by the beliefs of Missouri Synod Lutherans, here, as I am somewhat familiar with them, and they think of themselves as being bound by the teachings of Luther and the Concords.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson