I can't believe the new "bugging" scandal hasn't been posted yet

[Monkeyleg]

As the thread title says, I just can't believe that the news about the NSA monitoring everybody and every communication in the US isn't a topic yet.

If this doesn't grab the public's attention, I don't know what will. Yes, they were grabbing small packets of data, but I don't expect most folks to understand that.

What's more, this is getting huge media coverage, and outraged comments from liberals as well as conservatives and libertarians.

The downside is that it started in 2007, so even though it was expanded under Obama, he'll blame it on Bush.

[RevDisk]

Duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39825.0

Quasi duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39830.0

[RocketMan]

If it doesn't negatively affect American Idol, Survivor, Bridezillas, or Monday Night Football, no one will care.

[Monkeyleg]

Duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39825.0

Quasi duplicate

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=39830.0

I checked those threads. They're about Verizon. This is all communications companies, and all Americans, not just Verizon subscribers.

[RevDisk]

I checked those threads. They're about Verizon. This is all communications companies, and all Americans, not just Verizon subscribers.

*shrug*

Some of us have known for quite a few years. Good furry luck doing anything. It's time to strike while the iron is hot, and fan the flames as much as humanly possible. Only hope is the POTUS throws NSA brass under the bus, and the NSA develops an institutional twitch when domestic spying of ordinary Americans is suggested. I significantly doubt it will happen.

I think everyone here knows I've mocked or harassed employees of pretty much every agency, and stolen a coffee mug from the CIA. NSA is filled with very smart, decent people. Each and every NSA employee I have met was polite, intelligent, competent and had decent common sense. That makes them the most dangerous intelligence agency in our entire arsenal. If they went "rogue" from our country's perspective, they would be the most dangerous. With respect, half of DHS can't find fire when handed a lit thermite grenade. The other half are overworked, underpaid to the point that they couldn't become an effective Gestapo if their lives depended on it. NSA has the money, the people and the intelligence to do just about anything. They have done some absolutely amazing things. If they turned on the country, which they may or may not have started doing, it is very very bad. A military coup would be less worrisome, in my opinion. 

[Gewehr98]

Rev speaks true.

This is only the part that leaked. 

Remember that...   

[RevDisk]

Rev speaks true.

This is only the part that leaked. 

Remember that...   

More is leaking.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324299104578529112289298922.html

Credit card info too.


Now, the NSA is probably the most efficient foreign espionage and intelligence agency we have. They do an awesome job, and with no recognition. That capacity used against America is the worrisome part.

[Monkeyleg]

I've long suspected that American citizens were being spied upon much more than what the government has already acknowledged. The PRISM story is bigger than what I expected, though.

With all of these scandals swirling, if this were any president other than Obama, that president would be gone. I don't think that members of Congress will have the guts to call for the impeachment of the first black president. That's it. It's the only reason he was elected, and it's the only thing that will save him from impeachment.

Today Obama said "Nobody is listening to your phone calls". That sounds a lot like "you can keep your health insurance", "your taxes won't go up a single dime", "we did everything we could" (to help the ambassador and staff at Benghazi), and a slew of other lies.

[birdman]

Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"

[freakazoid]

and stolen a coffee mug from the CIA.

Sounds like an interesting story.

[MicroBalrog]

Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"

It's technically also true that when you're in public, people can see you, but if the police detailed an officer to follow you everywhere, you'd probably argue that you're being harassed or spied upon.

If it suddenly becomes affordable tomorrow, through an improvement in robot technology, for the police to detail a robot to follow every citizen in public, that will be spying, even though technically your movements are not private.

There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

It's technically also true that when you're in public, people can see you, but if the police detailed an officer to follow you everywhere, you'd probably argue that you're being harassed or spied upon.

If it suddenly becomes affordable tomorrow, through an improvement in robot technology, for the police to detail a robot to follow every citizen in public, that will be spying, even though technically your movements are not private.

There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.

Courts have ruled on following. In public

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[roo_ster]

MB & CSD:

The better analogy is gov't slapping a combo GPS+microphone directly on one's person without one's permission.

[MicroBalrog]

Courts have ruled on following. In public

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

Yes. I stated outright it is technically legal in the United States.

And your point is?

[birdman]

There is very good reason people like Revdisk are opposed to these developments.

And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

[Monkeyleg]

Looking at the articles, its not bugging.

Its phone record data (which isn't private anyway) and the metadata for emails and such, which no-one should treat as private anyway (and the TOS says its not) when using a google or yahoo service.

I almost think its a classic "people should no better than to expect privacy on something when they are explicitly told its not private"

No, it's not bugging in the specific sense. I was using "bugging" as a catch-all for surveillance.

To anyone's knowledge, has the government ever collected data on citizens on such a massive scale? My guess would be no, but I could be wrong. Even if I am wrong, the fact that the media is reporting this makes the story even more significant.

[MicroBalrog]

And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

You flaunt what you do all the time.  As is your right.

But more to the point: it is totally legitimate for people to oppose it as an invasion of privacy, even if legally it is not such. It is wholly legitimate for people to demand a legal limit for these activities, just as people in some countries have legal limits on police following people.

[roo_ster]

And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

While those who voted for BHO earned their share of vilification, those executing the taps & collections are also deserving.  There are three branches of gov't.  For something like this to occur and become policy, those in all three must betray their oaths to uphold the COTUS.  

But the thing is, BHO doesn't deserve all the blame.  GWB & his contemporaneous Congresses started the ball rolling.  So, by your formulation, the only part of the electorate not subject to your outrage is the slim numbers who voted third party from 2000 onwards?

[Tallpine]

BHO doesn't deserve all the blame

If anything he deserves more blame as he ran on a platform of changing the hated GWB warmongering and civil liberty abuses.

But BHO is even worse it seems.


(if y'all remember ... I was one of those "Bush haters" y'all derided for daring to criticize a Republican     )

[birdman]

You flaunt what you do all the time.  As is your right.

I flaunt -some- things. 

[Monkeyleg]

I flaunt -some- things. 

Well just don't do it in public. This is a family forum.

[RevDisk]

And a very good reason people like me (unlike rev, no offense intended,i dont flaunt what i do or my experience, as he can since he isn't involved any more in the various communities) who are opposed BUT see the outrage as misplaced in how it is shown--the outrage should be directed at the reason for it, and the permissive nature of low-information people, NOT by the method.  People voted these folks in, and haven't paid attention, and are now surprised.

I am very happy to burn some bridges.   

But we both know I also have kept my mouth shut on anything that has not made the papers or whatnot. A lot of stuff.

[birdman]

I am very happy to burn some bridges.   

But we both know I also have kept my mouth shut on anything that has not made the papers or whatnot. A lot of stuff.

I know :)

[slingshot]

I think this is a HUGE personal liberty issue and it seems it is broadening in scope all the time as more information comes out.  I have resisted posting a thread on the topic because it will be monitored.

[roo_ster]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1

Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows

The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.

Do tell.