Poll

Is Edward Snowden a criminal, or a hero?

This guy is a true blue hero
26 (44.1%)
Criminal.  He violated his Top Secret clearance
1 (1.7%)
It's still Fistful's fault
8 (13.6%)
All 3
24 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?  (Read 54373 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« on: June 10, 2013, 12:38:53 PM »
The NSA surveillance whistleblower, Edward Snowden.  What do you think of him?
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Tallpine

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 01:35:23 PM »
Need to add "All of the Above"   :P
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Jocassee

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 01:36:25 PM »
The NSA surveillance whistleblower, Edward Snowden.  What do you think of him?

I think he made the right call. As a child of the post-modern era I hesitate to call anyone a hero, but I think he did the right thing. The interview the guardian did gave me a sense of who he is and I think his heart is in the right place. Coming out in public, with his real name and his motivations, makes him harder to marginalize--and harder to make disappear.

He mentions hoping Obama would roll back these programs but I don't think he voted for him. Some people are saying he was an RP supporter.

I think what he did was right. Illegal? Hell yes. But we of all people know the difference between legality and morality. He knows the ramifications of what he did. I think he's got a big brass set.

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RocketMan

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 01:40:07 PM »
Lacking an 'all of the above' category, I voted fistful's fault.

Seriously, the part of me that took an oath and held security clearances and whatnot, wants to hammer him into the ground.
But another part of me admires him for what he did, exposing government abuses that were only suspected by a few up until now.
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RocketMan

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 01:42:02 PM »
Jocasse, one article yesterday I read said he voted for Obama twice.  I wonder which it is?  And does it really make a difference?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

SADShooter

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 01:42:40 PM »
If/when he is prosecuted, he should be standing alongside each and every "unnamed Administration/White House official" who selectively leaked pro-Administration intelligence information.

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 01:54:09 PM »
Count me in for "all the above". 
What the Government is doing is wrong.  But they're just following all the protocols we allowed them to put in place.  He broke the law.  I'm glad he revealed this to us, but I won't shed a tear when he's renditioned back to the US.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 02:19:27 PM »
Another "All of the above"  (I'll wait for you to update the poll to fix that little oversight before I vote)
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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 02:20:36 PM »
Lacking an 'all of the above' category, I voted fistful's fault.

Seriously, the part of me that took an oath and held security clearances and whatnot, wants to hammer him into the ground.
But another part of me admires him for what he did, exposing government abuses that were only suspected by a few up until now.

This.  He flagrantly violated the law regarding classified information to reveal corrupt &  unconstitutional acts by our gov't.

One almost thinks that the system was set up so that any real whistleblower has to violate the law to do the right thing.
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Jocassee

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 02:40:43 PM »
Jocasse, one article yesterday I read said he voted for Obama twice.  I wonder which it is?  And does it really make a difference?

I'll go back and dig if I get a chance. That said, I don't think it makes a difference except it would be nice to know if he was on "our" team.
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lee n. field

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 02:52:50 PM »
Awkward stage, we are at.
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brimic

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 02:53:42 PM »
Definately deep in the gray area all around.

What will be interesting in the following days are which senators/reps come out in favor of or against the NSA, we should make notes on who stands where on this.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 02:55:15 PM »
Awkward stage, we are at.

This. Yoda nails it. Too soon to tell.

The guy could be a Chinese-paid spy for all we know, and the whistleblowing is just a stunt/smokescreen to try and get a cordon of Amnesty International/Wikileaks lawyer types and NGO's around him.

Or he could be the real deal.

Or he could just be an impulsive screw-up.

I promise not to duck.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 02:56:43 PM »
Awkward stage, we are at staring agape at it in the rearview mirror as it recedes behind rapidly.

Fixed for moar truthitudiness.
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 03:23:21 PM »
Whistleblower reveals ILLEGAL activity.  He didn't.

He committed espionage.

RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 03:27:29 PM »
Count me in for "all the above". 
What the Government is doing is wrong.  But they're just following all the protocols we allowed them to put in place.  He broke the law.  I'm glad he revealed this to us, but I won't shed a tear when he's renditioned back to the US.

Not quite true. Technically, we never had proof that there were massive, systematic metadata searches of near all phone calls and credit card transactions. Folks "knew" it, but never had real proof. And we were specifically told we were not allowed to have proof, because "national security". Which, as far as I am aware, is not listed as trumping the Constitution on a regular, wide spread basis. Congress was not given broad and detailed oversight. United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is 15 Senators, House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has 21 Reps. And those members, as I recall, cannot legally divulge classified illegal programs. Kinda, sorta, not really, maybe.

Technically, there is a mechanism for reporting intel related fraud, waste and abuse.  ICWPA is for employees, or contractor employees, of the Defense Intelligence Agency, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, and the National Security Agency can report matters of "urgent concern" to the intelligence committees of Congress. DoD IG Instruction 7050.11 sorta implements the ICWPA within the DoD Office of Inspector General. But what happens when the top of the ICWPA chain refuses to deal with an illegal project, program or action?


I dunno. I fall into "All of the Above". As much as I bitch and gripe here, there are lines I haven't, don't and won't cross. Anything in the public domain already is fair game if it's reasonably well documented or independently validated. Because, well, duh. There's some bad stuff that I know about, that I kept my mouth shut. Because that is the right thing. But what happens when you see something blatantly illegal, unconstitutional and systematic? That Congress knows about, and is ignoring. On one hand, he broke his oath. Or did he? Which comes first? The people, or its laws?  It's highest laws or its routine laws?

It's a tough spot. I'm glad I'm not there. These are questions that should have clear answers, and never will. I don't think I would have leaked it if I was in the position to possess such documents. I haven't looked at the details, but from what I understand, he leaked in the most responsible way he could. That he solely leaked the classified court orders, with no sources and methods. That buys ... a measure of respect. Manning leaked sources and methods. He deserves burning, just for that alone. I may be wrong, that is solely what I heard thus far. We'll see.
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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 03:32:18 PM »
He did the right thing.

This is an expose of .gov gone wrong, not wikileaks bullshit.

To me abuse of power like that, something that is irrevocably harmful to
The citizens of the US is something that is OK to leak.

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CNYCacher

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 03:46:02 PM »
The NSA surveillance whistleblower, Edward Snowden.  What do you think of him?

Nice try, Obama.  Gotta be smarter than that!
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HankB

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2013, 03:46:53 PM »
Based on what I've heard up to now, he just blew the whistle on a government program of surveillance targeting over 100,000,000 Americans.

So far as we know right now, he didn't blow the cover of overseas operatives, sell atom bomb blueprints to the Norks, provide missile guidance systems to the Chinese or anything similar. He just notified 100,000,000+ Americans that their government is playing Big Brother, and really is watching them.

If it turns out he did more than that I'll revise my opinion, but right now, I can't fault him.
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Jocassee

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 04:34:46 PM »
Quote
Which comes first? The people, or its laws?  It's highest laws or its routine laws?

These are exactly the questions to ask. I may differ with some of you on the answers, but those are the questions.

Whistleblower reveals ILLEGAL activity.  He didn't.

He committed espionage.

Not espionage. Unless it comes out that he sold secrets to the ChiComs, but I think if he had done that his name would be a big secret and he wouldn't be watching his ass and giving interviews to the Guardian.

I was strongly impressed, favorably, by watching his interview. His politics may be crossed up but I think his ideals are solid. He referred to the government's "Architecture of oppression" and the idea that one day this technology will be used as "turnkey tyranny." He also spoke about the eventual criminalization of "everything" and the fear that having everything recorded will enable the watchers to go back and build a case against citizens retroactively for offenses real or imagined.

I believe he is being so public to keep himself from being disappeared. In the interview he did not come across as self-aggrandizing. Smart and knows it, yes. But not a shameless white-knighting bastard.
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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 04:40:39 PM »
Whistleblower reveals ILLEGAL activity.  He didn't.
This ultimately depends on the Constitutionality of the programs he made public.
He committed espionage.
Possibly, but an unusual form of it.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2013, 04:50:03 PM »
If he committed espionage, then he was acting as an agent for the people of the United States, in counterpoint to being an agent of the Government of the United States.
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Balog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2013, 05:02:04 PM »
The Constitution is the highest law in the land. If Congress passed a law saying (for example) that all journalists had to submit their work to a secret review board who would rewrite and censor because national security, then someone "leaking" the classified documents showing that this was happening would be violating a law that is itself invalid and illegal. All enemies foreign and domestic, and all that. Fed.gov can't just do blatantly illegal and evil things then say but national security! when they're revealed. Well, obviously they can and are but it's silly and hopefully no one takes them seriously.
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brimic

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 05:04:14 PM »
If he committed espionage, then he was acting as an agent for the people of the United States, in counterpoint to being an agent of the Government of the United States.
So he was spying for enemies of the state....
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MechAg94

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 05:17:35 PM »
I agree with others that it is too early to tell.

One other question:  What secrets did he actually reveal?  Is it just the existence of these programs like Prism?
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