Poll

Is Edward Snowden a criminal, or a hero?

This guy is a true blue hero
26 (44.1%)
Criminal.  He violated his Top Secret clearance
1 (1.7%)
It's still Fistful's fault
8 (13.6%)
All 3
24 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?  (Read 54375 times)

RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2013, 08:42:57 AM »
Yes, the agreements you sign do allow them to give ALREADY LEGAL TO GIVE metadata to government.

CSD is correct, metadata (ie phone LUDS) are legal to acquire without a warrant.

You say "I doubt it" when it comes to what is allowed or not, meaning you don't know and haven't checked, thereby PROVING MY POINT THAT YOU DONT KNOW AND ARE STILL EXPRESSING AN ISSUE WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN'T DEFINE.

Do you know what information the NSA processes?  No.  Do you know what the legal protections are?  No.

Do you know that for domestic communication between two US citizens, any content is protected unless a warrant is issued?  Apparently not.



Some of us know of Smith v. Maryland (442 U.S. 735, 744) that legalized pen registers without a warrant.  ;)

However, there *is* 18 U.S.C. § 3123(a)(1) (actually all of Title III of ECPA), which the Patriot Act legally expanded to include computer software analogs of pen registers. It still requires a court order, admittedly with the lowest bar. There are still some legal questions in the matter. One unpleasant part is info illegally obtained by a pen register is NOT legally excluded. So, if they have a sacrificial lamb, they could throw someone to the wolves and keep the info.

Metadata searches of phone records require a court order. National Security Letters used to be considered enough, but a fed judge overruled that. Last I heard, it's waiting on a Supreme Court ruling. Now, telephone data is prohibited from sale, any Customer Proprietary Network Information (CPNI) under Telecommunications Act of 1996. Only applies to telcos. Cell phone company text messages should fall under this as well. Aftermarket text like alternatives or IM utilities do not.

Non-telephone data can be sold freely. Technically, the US government could purchase non-telephone data from say, Facebook, Google, etc for $1. Or get a regular warrant. FB, et al could freely give the info over. When it comes to say, email headers, the ball is mostly in the government's hands because there's a lot of mixed rulings. Encryption is your friend, and assume headers will be intercepted.

Out of curiosity, anyone (including any of the lawyers here) happen to know if the above is wrong anywhere? Because that is the advice I've given to a LOT of companies, and it's been vetted by a lot of corporate lawyers. They're in for a real shock otherwise.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2013, 08:52:38 AM »
How bad is this? 

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

Beautiful link, thank you very much Scout!  Loved it.  And was terrified by it.
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RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2013, 09:19:37 AM »
How bad is this? 

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

Traffic analysis 101.

Often, the message is irrelevant. It's nice when you can actually read it. But it gets mangled, folks use encryption, folks use brevity codes, only partial intercepts, you don't have enough Urdu or Bronx English translators, etc. It's riddled with false positives and false negatives. And people LOVE to friggin talk. So, you have enormous amounts of raw data that can be a pain in the neck to sift, organized, tag and whatnot.

Good ol' metadata often is more clean. For cell phones, it's who from, who to, time started, rough location (cell tower) and duration. Just who from and who to gives gives you associations. It's quick and easy (comparatively speaking), and more accurate than intercepts statistically. Call duration or frequency allows you to weight the connections.

You can add another axis, and make it time based as well. It shows you how networks change over time. Which are growing, which are shrinking. Are there feeder networks, factional migrations?

Another axis, for cellular communication, is location. All kinds of juicy geospatial analysis you can do there because you can slug the cell tower info into the records. Not GPS accurate, but it doesn't NEED to be. GPS info can be wrong, cell tower info rarely is.


Tis why the Verizon nation-wide pen register is MORE dangerous. I'd prefer they get each and every voice conversation, rather than just the numbers I used, who they were to, and where they were made. Traffic analysis shows you the big picture. By good ol' fashion grunt work or random blind luck, you just need one starting point and you can take down entire networks even if they are fully encrypted or in a dialect you don't speak.
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HankB

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2013, 09:35:20 AM »
Quote
Based on what I've heard up to now, he just blew the whistle on a government program of surveillance targeting over 100,000,000 Americans.

So far as we know right now, he didn't blow the cover of overseas operatives, sell atom bomb blueprints to the Norks, provide missile guidance systems to the Chinese or anything similar. He just notified 100,000,000+ Americans that their government is playing Big Brother, and really is watching them.

If it turns out he did more than that I'll revise my opinion, but right now, I can't fault him.

You have NO CLUE what you are talking about.  It wasn't "targeting", do you have idea what is legal or not in this area?  Do you know what ICD-501 compliance is?  Do you understand the difference between data and metadata, and the pertaining laws?  No?  The don't talk about it.
Quite the knee-jerk response. Calm down, take a deep breath. A good part of the discussion so far concerns the distinction between what's legal and what's right – and the growing consensus seems to be that gathering and cataloging data on 100,000,000+ Americans certainly isn’t right. And there seems to a growing number of legal scholars who are troubled as well – the legality of what’s being done seems open to question, and will no doubt take time to resolve once the extent of the government's domestic surveillance activity is known.

In the wake of the obfuscations, misrepresentations, and outright lies at the heart of the IRS scandal, people aren't willing to simply accept a Fed.gov spokesman's pronouncement that they didn't do anything wrong.

I made it clear in my post that I don’t have all the info, but considering the continuing stream of public revelations about domestic information gathering, I damn well WILL talk about it. In recent days the news has reported that NSA has its fingers in at least 7 major ISPs – we don’t know what data they’re gathering – and their new data center under construction in Utah will allegedly have the capability of storing and cataloging the equivalent of 500 quintillion (their number not mine) pages of data – data which will be available to not only this administration but FUTURE administrations that may not be as wise and benevolent as Team Obama.
. . . Now, IM going to simply shut up, and let you all just rant and rave, and be outraged, since education is worthless when you don't even have the ability to on your own look at both sides of an issue, and would rather knee-jerk your way like a gun control advocate to a conclusion spoon fed to you by the same media you deride out the other side of your mouth.

TL:DR.   F this thread.
Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful conclusion.  ;/
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brimic

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2013, 11:07:52 AM »
http://wapo.st/19ivnfi

a lil gas on flames

'Most Americans' voted Obama into office for 2 terms as well....
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Balog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2013, 11:09:10 AM »
If your system's only protection for the citizenry is secret review panels holding secret programs to secret accountability standards, and the only defense you can give of it is 1. "Well they passed a law saying we could!" and 2. "No, the folks in the secret police are really, really good guys who'd never do anything against their fellow citizens!" then the system is broken.
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Scout26

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2013, 11:28:22 AM »
If you think he did they right thing:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/10/support-grows-petition-pardon-nsa-leaker-edward-sn/

And the State Department cover-up story.  Again just shows how out of touch this government has become.  If you are one of the "betters" and have pull with Wesley Mouch, then you're untouchable.  Do whatever you want.  Jeopardize national security with your peccadilloes, no problem we'll quash that investigation, we've got more important things to do like three IRS audit of a private gun club in northern Illinois, cause you know those folks are the real trrrrists.   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 11:36:49 AM by scout26 »
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2013, 12:18:38 PM »
Food for thought.
In all honesty, the IC would really wish to -not- have to examine -any- data, meta or otherwise, from Americans, regardless of legality, as it makes the job of finding the important bad guy stuff easier if there were a way to easily separate it.  However, bad guys know the best way to hide is among the innocent, so any intelligence collection has to run a fine line between privacy, legal, and capability.  If the metadata is being used, its because its the best way to draw this line. 

If there were a really clear way to selectively avoid ANY monitoring of ANY type of communication involving American citizens, they would do it in a nanosecond, as it means the volume analyzed would be millions if not billions of times smaller, cheaper, and more effective.

So if there is metadata monitoring, its because its the best way to balance mission (a sliding scale) with legal (a hard line) and cost (a sliding scale). 

That being said, there are appropriate ways of whistleblowing on any -illegal- activities, that DONT involve fleeing the country with classified information with the hope of avoiding prosecution. 

My thought is this...if (as he claims) he was trying "to do the right thing", why did he flee?   He could have walked into a congressperson's office, reporter in tow, and given his interview right there, or at the NYT, or wherever, made just as big of a scene, had the same effect, but minimized potential damage to the mission.

His behavior smacks more of attempting to cover "I'm going to hurt them" with "I'm doing the 'right' thing".

Scout26

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2013, 12:29:52 PM »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2013, 12:30:17 PM »
Here's a thought: I get that the NSA agents in charge are not trying to purposefully eat the freedom of Americans with a spoon and do illegal things.

Perhaps, then, Congress should make these activities illegal (which it can).

Not every tool that can make it easier for law enforcement to do its job must therefore be given to law enforcement.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2013, 12:46:30 PM »
Here's a thought: I get that the NSA agents in charge are not trying to purposefully eat the freedom of Americans with a spoon and do illegal things.

Perhaps, then, Congress should make these activities illegal (which it can).

Not every tool that can make it easier for law enforcement to do its job must therefore be given to law enforcement.

Seems most of America (and Europe) is wanting that.

However, our betters do not.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/house-speaker-john-boehner-nsa-leaker-a-traitor/
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/06/10/franken-very-well-aware-of-nsa-tracking-phone-records/

Left or Right... a Statist is still a Statist.

With Boehner calling the guy a traitor, he's not likely to give any bill a snowball's chance in Hell DC that would laud Snowden and/or remove NSA authorization for this activity.

That Revere mash-up strikes home exactly how dangerous this is, with the epic levels of anti-government activism and dissatisfaction we currently experience nationwide.  When the enemy gets too hard to find, you just find a different enemy.
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RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2013, 01:32:20 PM »
Food for thought.
In all honesty, the IC would really wish to -not- have to examine -any- data, meta or otherwise, from Americans, regardless of legality, as it makes the job of finding the important bad guy stuff easier if there were a way to easily separate it.  However, bad guys know the best way to hide is among the innocent, so any intelligence collection has to run a fine line between privacy, legal, and capability.  If the metadata is being used, its because its the best way to draw this line. 

If there were a really clear way to selectively avoid ANY monitoring of ANY type of communication involving American citizens, they would do it in a nanosecond, as it means the volume analyzed would be millions if not billions of times smaller, cheaper, and more effective.

So if there is metadata monitoring, its because its the best way to balance mission (a sliding scale) with legal (a hard line) and cost (a sliding scale). 

That being said, there are appropriate ways of whistleblowing on any -illegal- activities, that DONT involve fleeing the country with classified information with the hope of avoiding prosecution. 

No, *much* of the the IC does so wish. Most are decent Americans. But, we both know the Church Commission existed for a reason. This frankly reminds me of HTLINGUAL. The CIA claimed to be taking pictures or otherwise recording the outside of US mail, which is legal AFAIK but IANAL. Reality is, they started opening the mail. It's kinda a routine cycle. Intel goes way too far, gets their chain yanked until the next emergency, and then goes way too far. Repeat.

Also, "way", singular. The appropriate way is "report it to the DOD, through JWICS", who will pass it to Congress. This is legally the ONLY way to whistleblow TS material from the NSA, outside of NSA OIG.
http://www.dodig.mil/programs/whistleblower/icwpa.html

Tice, Binney, Drake, etc attest how well that works. This goes back to ThinThread vs Trailblazer. ThinThread had protection mechanisms, Trailblazer did not. NSA brass and the politicians intentionally went Trailblazer. Which expensively flopped. The rest of the projects under Stellar Winds did not. Intentional or not, the NSA brass allowed projects to NOT have sufficient 4th Amendment protection. I'm willing to grant they were overzealous in trying to track bad guys, and merely failed to properly implement safeguards, under Stellar Winds (or whatever codeword they're using this month). PRISM falls under the bucket. Regardless of intentions, they have gone too far.

I fully admit I do NOT know the full extent of the circumstances and law in this matter. No one can, because very large parts are classified and will never see daylight. Some for the right reasons, some because it helps covering up mistakes. We both remember a dozen clusters that got swept under a TS security blanket to keep it out of the news and cover up some boss's personal mistake.

My thought is this...if (as he claims) he was trying "to do the right thing", why did he flee?   He could have walked into a congressperson's office, reporter in tow, and given his interview right there, or at the NYT, or wherever, made just as big of a scene, had the same effect, but minimized potential damage to the mission.

His behavior smacks more of attempting to cover "I'm going to hurt them" with "I'm doing the 'right' thing".

If he was really bright, yes. He'd have turned himself in with multiple reporters from multiple foreign countries. AFTER putting out a Torrent of very very heavily encrypted files with much worse information, and multiple servers outside the US ready to shoot out the key if he was held without communication. It's fairly unlikely he would have been blackbagged and put on a ghost detainee ship, or tortured, or handed over to a foreign government for torture, or whatnot. But certainly not impossible. For that sort of thing, the only life insurance you have is what damage you can do from beyond the grave or salt pit.

Dude still walked from a $200k gig, a nice house in Hawaii, a girlfriend, etc. At best, he's on the run for the rest of his life. At worst, he's the next El-Masri. Or believed he might be. Realistically, due to Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the real worst case is life in prison, probably without whatever new term they use for torture. He'll probably do two decades in prison, with a sentence being commuted once he's long faded from memory.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2013, 01:53:03 PM »
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/main-core-list-of-millions-of-americans.html

All you fancy government former or current TS guys:

Main Core:  Real, or not?

8 million names in 2008 and growing, sounds a LOT to me like it more or less correlates to the fabled "three percent" likely to participate in any kind of revolt/revolution/rebellion. 

Add PRISM/Echelon/[whatever system triangulates HAMs] as a collection mechanism to Main Core and you have automatic quelling of communications capability for any possible American Revolution 2.0.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2013, 01:53:29 PM »
Fair enough.  But holding the agency responsible for executing its mission within constraints applied to it, to the extent of constraints applied to it, by those responsible for creating those laws (congress) and directing the agency (executive branch) is not the correct way.  People said ZOMG terrorism, help us, continued to elect the folks who cotrol the budget and direction, and now are blaming others for the result.  

The problem still exists as a wheat/chaff problem, with the chaff being the lawful comms of US citizens.  Unfortunately, the bulk of -global- traffic goes through the US, be it merely as data routed straight through, or served/cached/operated on by US commercial entities along the way, and as such, is mixed with our traffic.  BY DEFINITION, even attempting to discriminate between foreign and domestic traffic requires "monitoring" (as the term has been extended in this case) of source/destination metadata.  
And therein lies the rub--it is IMPOSSIBLE to lawfully select out legal (eg foreign) data WITHOUT observing the metadata of domestic traffic.

In the past, when communications weren't pocket switched, over terrestrial fiber, such discrimination were possible without observation of domestic metadata, but the very nature of modern communications makes it impossible to do so now.  

Again, I return to my point regarding metadata--without observation of the metadata it is impossible to even divide the data into "okay to observe" (foreign) and illegal (domestic), so the very nature of our modern communications have created a defacto situation of either observing all of the metadata or none of it.  As the latter makes the probability of success zero, the best and most privacy respecting method is to observe the legally allowed level of metadata, if only to -prevent- the observation of private data.

If you eliminate the ability to observe source/destination, how can you possibly determine which data is legal or not.  So when calling for zero government observation of metadata, you are in effect stating that you would rather have zero intelligence gathering on communication of foreign sources, than to have that metadata be used to prevent monitoring of domestic communications and allow for appropriate targeting of observation-allowable data.

Blame IP and packet switched networks if you must, but that is the genesis of this problem.

RevDisk

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2013, 05:22:28 PM »
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/main-core-list-of-millions-of-americans.html

All you fancy government former or current TS guys:

Main Core:  Real, or not?

8 million names in 2008 and growing, sounds a LOT to me like it more or less correlates to the fabled "three percent" likely to participate in any kind of revolt/revolution/rebellion. 

Add PRISM/Echelon/[whatever system triangulates HAMs] as a collection mechanism to Main Core and you have automatic quelling of communications capability for any possible American Revolution 2.0.

Not real. To put this in perspective, 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails. So, care to build nearly three and a half times as many prisons and jails? Staff them? Feed the inmates? Pay for even basic medical care? Heating/cooling? And in event of housing potential combatants, you need to secure them to a level most of our prisons don't have. The local county jail is not hardened against mortars, snipers, tanks, etc. Max and Supermax prisons are near that level. And hideously expensive.

Take you a decade to build, and easily a hundred billion plus price tag.
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Scout26

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2013, 10:33:16 PM »
There are 3 or 4 Active Duty MP battalions that do the I/R and/or EPW mission  One at Gitmo, one in Afghanistan and two in the states.  There are 1 MP Brigade (2 Battalions) that run Ft. Leavenworth, 230th MP Co that runs Mannheim/Sembach, 508th MP Battalion that handles the facility at Lewis-McChord and one company, 557th, IIRC, at Camp Humphreys Korea. .  

Then there are 4 USAR/ARNG Military Brigades that conduct I/R and/or EPW operations all under the command of the 200th MP Command.  Run by a Reserve 2 star, while the Deputy is an active duty one star.

11th MP Brigade  (6 MP Battalions)
290th MP Brigade (5 MP Battalions)
300th MP Brigade  (5 MP Battalions)
800th MP Brigade  (6 MP Battalions to include the 372nd MP Co of Abu Ghraib fame)

Each MP company can guard/process/handle roughly 4,000 EPW/CI/DC's  Figure on average 4 MP companies per battalion, you get 352,000 folks that can be easily handled by the existing EPW/IR battalions.  If pressed they could handle double that.   Since MP's have four wartime missions: battlefield circulation control (BCC), area security, and enemy prisoner of war (EPW) operations and law and order operations, other MP units can quickly be added to assist with EPW/IR operations.

So all 8 million.  No.

We interned roughly 120,000 Neisei during WWII in 10 camps (there were several smaller ones, but those were mostly transient or only held a few people.)  Figure 1 MP Battalion per camp that's roughly 12,000 people per battalion (roughly 700-800 troops, though not all are guards.)  However, detained, III%er type Americans aren't going to be nearly as docile as the Japanese-Americans were in the 1940's.

And you don't need to build Supermax style.  Lots of wide open spaces with good fields of fire and long clear views (that can also be covered by Ground Surveillace Radars and the like), so unless they are doing a Song Tay type raid with lots of supporting weapons (and lots of friends with guns), chances of staging a mass rescue/escape probably won't fair to well.  Attitude of the guard force being the key factor.  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 10:57:20 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

cordex

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2013, 10:38:49 PM »
Was the question whether the Main Core dataset is real or whether there is real threat of imprisoning everyone on that list?

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2013, 10:43:28 PM »
Was the question whether the Main Core dataset is real or whether there is real threat of imprisoning everyone on that list?

Main Core:  Whether it was or is still named as such, does such a dataset exist?
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I reject your authoritah!

DustinD

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2013, 12:10:05 AM »
Considering all of the lists the government has been known to make, including of such reasonably boring people as normal protesters, bounty hunters, computer experts, knob creek and gun show attendees, low level drug users, the various militia groups, and everything else the church commission uncovered it is definitely true a few times over. Just look at the lengths the various agencies have gone to to infiltrate various groups in the past, and the expenses incurred to track information on people before computers made it cheap and easy and use that as a benchmark.

I also can't remember the sources, but the infrastructure in locations and spare fencing and the like to detain millions of people around the country has already been thought out. Just look how many people were detained during the Katrina mess and how few people it took to keep them locked up. It would be pretty hard to break out of a large container ship, huge desert, or small island if the government shipped the most likely to escape to those types of locations.
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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2013, 01:13:39 AM »
Fair enough.  But holding the agency responsible for executing its mission within constraints applied to it, to the extent of constraints applied to it, by those responsible for creating those laws (congress) and directing the agency (executive branch) is not the correct way.  People said ZOMG terrorism, help us, continued to elect the folks who cotrol the budget and direction, and now are blaming others for the result.  

My first reaction is, "Boo-effing hoo, cry me a river whiny civvie spooks." 

None of them have signed over their ass to Uncle Sam for a number of years(+/-).  They can quit at any time and they won't be tracked down and spend time in Ft Leavenworth for deciding they no longer want to take a salary from fed.gov.  Also, as members of the executive branch, they individually are as responsible as any congresscritter for the constitutionality of gov't actions taken by or supervised by them.  And agency mgt is responsible for seeing to the same. 

Even if the law passes congress.  Even if POTUS and SCOTUS wink & nod. 

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

5 U.S.C. §3331

I don't see any conditions such as, "unless Congress says it is OK or I might lose my job and swell federal benefits."

So when calling for zero government observation of metadata, you are in effect stating that you would rather have zero intelligence gathering on communication of foreign sources, than to have that metadata be used to prevent monitoring of domestic communications and allow for appropriate targeting of observation-allowable data.

Blame IP and packet switched networks if you must, but that is the genesis of this problem.

Get a warrant IAW the 4th Amendment:
Quote
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If they are violating the COTUS and not adhering to the limits imposed by the 4th Amendment, then I would rather there be no gathering of such intel.  If it were easy, any trained monkey could do it.   

The genesis of the problem is ALL the branches of gov't failing to do their duty.  And federal employees for whom oaths are a joke.  Technology is not responsible for federal employees' andpolicriters violation of citizens' rights.  Technology merely presents the opportunity to show what hey are made of.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2013, 02:10:29 AM »
How many were detained during Katrina?

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2013, 02:27:50 AM »
I tend to think of federal plans to throw large numbers of folks in concentration camps as sort of like the fed.gov plans to invade Canada. Not really evidence that they intend to do it.
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brimic

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2013, 07:49:10 AM »
Overheard at a gun show a few years back where two guys were discussing .gov making lists of people who were NRA/American Legion/etc members... A third guy interjects and says "You make the assumption that the government has the only people making lists."
 >:D

Having a large list of Americans who have the potential of causing serious trouble to an out of control government is not the same as having a plan to house them in incarceration. Other regimes in history have systematically 'processed' tens of millions of people with the capacity to house a very small fraction of the numbers.

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Fitz

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2013, 07:50:39 AM »
I'm gonna have to side with birdman on this one. I voted the other way, then i read some more on it.

I think there are much more egregious abuses going on. we should focus our efforts on that.
Fitz

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HankB

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2013, 08:27:34 AM »
I tend to think of federal plans to throw large numbers of folks in concentration camps as sort of like the fed.gov plans to invade Canada. Not really evidence that they intend to do it.  
They could always do other things to people Wesley Mouch doesn't approve of: monkey with "tax exempt" status of any organizations the undesirables belong to, add names to "no fly" lists, delay or deny professional licenses . . . and there have been proposals floated to have "not allowed to buy guns" lists based on the same sort of criteria (secret, virtually no appeal) used to create "no fly" lists.  Clogging the courts wouldn't matter - they could say "OK, you'll have your day in court . . . but due to workload, it won't be for another six years."

I'm not saying any of this will happen . . . in fact, I see it as rather unlikely. But do we really want .gov to have the tools in place to do this?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:02:55 AM by HankB »
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