Author Topic: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant  (Read 11327 times)

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 07:30:14 PM »
I seem to recall telling people that USSID 18 is no longer in effect whenever this subject would come up.

Example.

But of course it's all just tin-foil until someone "important" does it. *sigh*



I believe that was confirmed later into the same article:

So the revolving door is still functional -- this guy goes from working for (heading) the NSA to being the head honcho of their preferred contractor. And this guy actually believes -- and testified -- that the President has authority to ignore and overrule the Constitution.

Scary stuff.

Nixon/Frost moment much?



For Christ's sake, YOU CAN'T SELECT OUT NON DOMESTIC TRAFFIC WITHOUT "MONITORING" DOMESTIC COMMS.


That isn't accurate.

T.O.M.

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2013, 08:57:51 AM »
Thing is, we're concerned that the government is logging who you've called, and who calls you - not necessarily the content of those calls.  You can find out a lot if you know who talks to who and with what frequency; a whole social network diagram can be built with that information alone.  And that information is comparatively easy for computer systems to log and analyze without human intervention.

Question: Is the address of all the postal mail I receive and send subject to warentless logging?  How about through a private courier, like UPS?

The question that needs to be asked with respect to information like this is what expectation of privacy do you have for that information?  With addresses, you write it o the outside of the envelope, put it in a mailbox, and several dozen people see it between your mailbox and the recipient's box.probably the same with UPS/FedEx, etc.  You put it out for view, so your expectation of privacy is minimal.  With phone numbers you dial, I'm not so sure.  Because the system is automated, fewer people are involved.  And, with billing the way it is now, with less emphasis put on the distance of the call (local vs. intrastate long distance vs. interstate long distance vs. international), there's less of a business reason to track this information.  But, still, you are putting the information in someone else's hands when you dial a phone, in that you are telling someone (or a computer someone else is using) where to direct your call when you dial.  I suspect the expectation of privacy for that set of numbers is also minimal.

No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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brimic

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 12:56:24 PM »
Quote
The question that needs to be asked with respect to information like this is what expectation of privacy do you have for that information?  With addresses, you write it o the outside of the envelope, put it in a mailbox, and several dozen people see it between your mailbox and the recipient's box.probably the same with UPS/FedEx, etc.  You put it out for view, so your expectation of privacy is minimal.

Thats why those kind of places ship their products in plain brown boxes and envelopes with an innocuous sounding return address. ;)
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Balog

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 01:31:35 PM »
The question that needs to be asked with respect to information like this is what expectation of privacy do you have for that information?  With addresses, you write it o the outside of the envelope, put it in a mailbox, and several dozen people see it between your mailbox and the recipient's box.probably the same with UPS/FedEx, etc.  You put it out for view, so your expectation of privacy is minimal.  With phone numbers you dial, I'm not so sure.  Because the system is automated, fewer people are involved.  And, with billing the way it is now, with less emphasis put on the distance of the call (local vs. intrastate long distance vs. interstate long distance vs. international), there's less of a business reason to track this information.  But, still, you are putting the information in someone else's hands when you dial a phone, in that you are telling someone (or a computer someone else is using) where to direct your call when you dial.  I suspect the expectation of privacy for that set of numbers is also minimal.



Every time you leave the house you have no expectation of privacy. Shall we let the fed.gov attach GPS units to all privately owned vehicles and track everywhere you go all day? Would that be an issue for you, given that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 01:47:48 PM »
Quote
Shall we let the fed.gov attach GPS units to all privately owned vehicles and track everywhere you go all day?

Don't most new cars have some kind of onboard GPS already? Is there a current production cell phone that doesn't have GPS? Most people are already "tagged" all that's left is for another whistleblower to tell us that the .gov is already tracking our every move. If it can be done you can bet they are doing it.
And, we've been seeing talk for a while now of making them (GPS) mandatory in cars to be able to charge a "road use tax" by the mile.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2013, 02:03:24 PM »
Every time you leave the house you have no expectation of privacy. Shall we let the fed.gov attach GPS units to all privately owned vehicles and track everywhere you go all day? Would that be an issue for you, given that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy?

Good point.  What the courts have ruled with respect to tech adhanvces is that using advanced technology that allows a person to go beyond what their normal senses would be able to accomplish (I can't recall the case...it was about using thermal imaging to scan houses looking for pot grows) requires a court authorization.  I don't know how courts would rule with respect to phone numbers, because they are kind of in the middle between purely public and purely private.

Balog, when i was a prosecutor, I did assist cops in getting court orders for GPS devices on cars.  So, if courts follow your logic, then it would require a court order to collect phone numbers.  I'm just not sure where they would come down this issue...
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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Scout26

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2013, 02:07:57 PM »
I have the expectation that when I ship something UPS or Fedex that they won't break into the package and look to see what I'm shipping and to whom.

I have the expectation that when I use my phone that they simply use my metadata to bill me for usage and they don't turn around to notify my STBX that I've called my lawyer.

I have the expectation that when I use my Preferred Customer Card at the grocery store, that all I'll get is an e-mail recommending similar products and maybe a coupon, not that they'll restrict or limit what food I buy the next time I'm there. (Mayor Bloomberg.)

I do business with those companies with the expectation that they will only use my data/information for purposes associated with the operation of their business (billing/marketing) and not to turn it over to the .gov to have men with guns scrutinize my life.

That is my expectation.  To have the .gov leave me alone.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2013, 03:10:04 PM »
I have the expectation that when I ship something UPS or Fedex that they won't break into the package and look to see what I'm shipping and to whom.

I have the expectation that when I use my phone that they simply use my metadata to bill me for usage and they don't turn around to notify my STBX that I've called my lawyer.

I have the expectation that when I use my Preferred Customer Card at the grocery store, that all I'll get is an e-mail recommending similar products and maybe a coupon, not that they'll restrict or limit what food I buy the next time I'm there. (Mayor Bloomberg.)

I do business with those companies with the expectation that they will only use my data/information for purposes associated with the operation of their business (billing/marketing) and not to turn it over to the .gov to have men with guns scrutinize my life.

That is my expectation.  To have the .gov leave me alone.

My fault for speaking in lawyer talk. It's actually a "reasonable expectation of privacy," which means pretty much you have to look at it from an objective point of view.  That said, I've always felt that mail, phoone calls, and the like sould be private.  I just don't know if judges (other judges, tyhat is) would agree with me.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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SADShooter

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2013, 03:22:07 PM »
I have the expectation that when I ship something UPS or Fedex that they won't break into the package and look to see what I'm shipping and to whom.

I have the expectation that when I use my phone that they simply use my metadata to bill me for usage and they don't turn around to notify my STBX that I've called my lawyer.

I have the expectation that when I use my Preferred Customer Card at the grocery store, that all I'll get is an e-mail recommending similar products and maybe a coupon, not that they'll restrict or limit what food I buy the next time I'm there. (Mayor Bloomberg.)

I do business with those companies with the expectation that they will only use my data/information for purposes associated with the operation of their business (billing/marketing) and not to turn it over to the .gov to have men with guns scrutinize my life.

That is my expectation.  To have the .gov leave me alone
.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2013, 05:17:33 PM »
Don't most new cars have some kind of onboard GPS already? Is there a current production cell phone that doesn't have GPS? Most people are already "tagged"

One more reason why I drive a ten-year old car and use a "dumb" cell phone (rarely) with no text capability.

I can still mail a latter that has no return address on the envelope. I can drop it in a mailbox in another city. Generally, although the USPS grumbles, they usually deliver it (as long as I have a correct address for the intended recipient. The next step may be that they'll make it illegal to mail a letter without prominently showing your correct return address on the outside of the envelope.

(Solution: I'll have my wife write it. Good luck scanning that, NSA. 24 hours later she can't read notes she herself wrote.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 05:22:30 PM by Hawkmoon »
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dogmush

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2013, 05:44:56 PM »
One more reason why I drive a ten-year old car and use a "dumb" cell phone (rarely) with no text capability.

Because you don't want the NSA to track you? ???


Don't get me wrong, I have issues with the .gov surveillance/tracking.  And i'd like to know as much as possible about how my .gov tracks me so that if needed I could drop them/it (or at least hinder it).

But on a day to day basis, pre-revolution, I really don't think that they get much from the info.  It seems (to me) silly to deny yourself actual useful pieces of tech just because, at some point in the future, they might be used to track you doing something the .gov doesn't like.  Everybody is welcome to their own risk assessment however. 

Scout26

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 02:03:56 PM »
This is why:

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

Just because your not part of "anything" you may have have associated with those who are.   I'm sure the .gov "debrief" you will undergo with will be a most pleasant experience.

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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BReilley

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2013, 04:25:40 PM »
http://c4ss.org/content/19769

Think what you want of the source, I find the article to be a decent summary of the root of my own concerns with the present scandal.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Warrant? Wee don't need no steenkin' warrant
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2013, 09:29:17 PM »
http://c4ss.org/content/19769

Think what you want of the source, I find the article to be a decent summary of the root of my own concerns with the present scandal.

I agree.
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