Author Topic: Illinois carry status?  (Read 26673 times)

Scout26

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2013, 11:09:22 PM »
In balance, I'm not sure what will happen. It could go either way. If we don't have the power to get improvements by simple majority later, then we were never even close to getting what we wanted by super majority, the "cliff" was a myth.


I had hope that they would be just stupid enough to let us go over the cliff. They lost, 14 Reps and 4 Senators that flipped from Yes to No on the veto vote.  I'm actually surprised they didn't lose more.  
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 03:32:00 PM by scout26 »
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drewtam

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #151 on: July 11, 2013, 07:46:51 AM »
Even if they did fail the motion to override, the Party bosses would have had a more restrictive bill ready to pull out of their back pocket to consider that day and made sure the Party members fell in line to vote for it.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2013, 02:04:50 AM »
The optimistic argument for future improvement:
We had near super majority of votes plus extra in House for our proposed CC law. The full force of the Party leaders cut that super majority to a few votes shy. Now all we need for improvements is a majority vote, not super majority. Counting votes, we should have a strong hand to push through what we want after a year or so. The opposition to Illinois gun owners has been absolutely zero, while supporters show up to the middle of nowhere capital by the thousands.

In balance, I'm not sure what will happen. It could go either way. If we don't have the power to get improvements by simple majority later, then we were never even close to getting what we wanted by super majority, the "cliff" was a myth.


Scout's example states are mostly may issue with few permit holders per capita and a difficult process to add more. You can't build momentum if it is hard to get numbers. IL is shall issue, there will be tens or hundreds of thousands of motivated voters angling for more expansions the first and every following year. And the recent vote even with the defections is far more than the simple majority needed for improvements.

Thus, your optimist point is key. Pro-gun voters mobilize and vote, anti-gun voters do not. Once the "OMG people can carry!" dam is broken the anti leadership will have trouble framing the soundbite. "OMG people will be able to carry off the sidewalk!" Is not a rallying cry with any power.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 02:09:50 AM by Matthew Carberry »
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2013, 02:09:03 AM »
Illinois Carry filed motions to prevent the ISP from delaying. In essence they are saying that since the anti-carry statutes remain in force (they weren't repealed, the permits provide a defense), until permits are physically -issued- the state has not complied with the Court's ruling and the unConstitutional infringements remain. Thus FOID carry should be in effect until they get the permit process up and running.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2013, 01:20:43 PM »
Illinois Carry filed motions to prevent the ISP from delaying. In essence they are saying that since the anti-carry statutes remain in force (they weren't repealed, the permits provide a defense), until permits are physically -issued- the state has not complied with the Court's ruling and the unConstitutional infringements remain. Thus FOID carry should be in effect until they get the permit process up and running.

Oh man...  At first I thought that was gonna be a reach, but after the thought made a few laps in the ol' brain housing group, I could very well see the court agreeing with that motion.  And I can *taste* the panic in the anti's camp right now.   :D
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Scout26

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2013, 02:04:41 PM »
Scout's example states are mostly may issue with few permit holders per capita and a difficult process to add more. You can't build momentum if it is hard to get numbers. IL is shall issue, there will be tens or hundreds of thousands of motivated voters angling for more expansions the first and every following year. And the recent vote even with the defections is far more than the simple majority needed for improvements.

Thus, your optimist point is key. Pro-gun voters mobilize and vote, anti-gun voters do not. Once the "OMG people can carry!" dam is broken the anti leadership will have trouble framing the soundbite. "OMG people will be able to carry off the sidewalk!" Is not a rallying cry with any power.

From the law:

Quote
Definitions:
...
"Law Enforcement Agency"  means any federal, state or local law enforcement agency, including offices of the State's Attorneys and the Office of the Attorney General"

Section 15. Objections by law enforcement agencies.
(a) Any law enforcement agency may submit an objection to a
license applicant based upon a reasonable suspicion that the
applicant is a danger to himself or herself or others, or a
threat to public safety.

S/he wants to carry a gun.  That makes him a danger to others.  I bet little Lisa, CPD Superintendent McCarthy, and State Police Director Grau already have their big red "DENIED" stamps warmed up.   Plus that looks like "May Issue", but let's read on, there may be a way out yet.  



So what do we have then.
1) A review board appointed by our Extremely Anti-Gun Governor.  (I doubt he'll appoint any Tea Party types.)
2) Consists of three commissioners from Cook County/Chicago. (They'll be pro-gun.  ;/)
3) And since they need a majority, throw in another (D) who happens to be an MD and you've got a majority to uphold any denial.
4) Toss in Anti-RINO or three, and no one will get a permit.  (Unless you have someone to clout for you.)

Look at what happened in Chicago after McDonald, they wrote an ordinance making it damn near impossible to get a permit, banned gun ranges and anything else they could think of doing to deny issuing any permits.   We had to win Ezell to at least get the onerous provisions repealed and the ordinance re-written.  

And all these people on in Springfield (Quinn, Madigan; both of them, Cullerton, Grau, et al.) are from Chicago and have that mold/mindset.  They are very anti-gun.  People think we won this like the other states did.  Building a coalition over time and winning legislators hearts and minds.  That's a false image.  We had fewer votes for the original "Good" LTC/CCW bill then we did last year (69 "Yea" votes last year, 66 "Yea" votes this year).  If and when we go back for "improvements" Madigan's going to pat Rep. Phelps on the head and say "You got your Concealed Carry, now if you ever what to be re-elected your going to need campaign money and if you don't vote how I tell you, you won't see a dime of it."

And should Madigan and Cullerton both screw-up and let an "Improvement" bill pass, Quinn will veto it like he did this one, and there's no way we'd get a 3/5 majority in either house.    If he does an amendatory veto, TPTB might let it stand if it makes things worse for gun owners.

The anti's in Illinois did not admit defeat, they just changed it enough so they can show that there's a CCW law on the books to comply with the court, but written in such a way that no (well, maybe a few well connected) permits will be issued.  

We'll have to back to the courts again.

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Scout26

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #157 on: July 12, 2013, 02:09:04 PM »
http://directives.chicagopolice.org/directives/data/a7a57bf0-13fc5603-92613-fc59-b4c8c0aba767ee8c.html?hl=true

Yep, I will be able to carry my gun when I'm on the sidewalk and bike path to the local MickeyD's, and that about it.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #158 on: July 12, 2013, 02:14:31 PM »
I bow to your local experience, but I think you are overly pessimistic.

12 million people in Illinois, 3 million in Chicago. 2 or 3 to 1 odds.

Pretty much every non-greater-Chicago area county will have thousands of people champing at the bit for a permit. If the Chicago crew starts playing games every one of them will be on the phone to their reps to do something about it and the courts will be keeping a weather eye on the process.  Judges don't like to be screwed with and Federal judges have nothing to fear from teh machine.

Pro-gun people vote and spend money, anti-gun people don't.  The Chicago machine survives because no one takes it on, because no one has had a real motivating reason to buck them.  Thousands of local voters calling for your head and/or offering you money could change that equation dramatically.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Scout26

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #159 on: July 12, 2013, 02:47:41 PM »
No, simply realistic.

We didn't get CCW because we had an overwhelming majority of pro-CCW folks in legislature.  We got it because a federal court put a gun to their heads.

The Dems redrew the all the election district maps after the last census.  They have Super-Majorities in both houses.  If Cullerton and Madigan agree on something, that's the way it will be. Period. End. Full Stop.  This bill was written in the "proverbial smoke filled room" with only Madigan, Phelps, Cullerton and few other legislators in attendance.  No NRA or ISRA or any other lobbyists. 

The ISP has 180 days to come up with an Application form (Seriously, you need 6 months to add a line for the instructor to sign saying you've completed 16 hours of training?)  Then they have to develop a "Course of CCW Instruction".  No real time limit on that.  Then they have to certify instructors. But first they have to have:
Quote
Have at least one of the following valid firearms instructor certifications:

    Certification from a law enforcement agency.
    Certification from a firearm instructor course offered by a state or federal governmental agency.
    Certification from a firearm instructor qualification course offered by the Illinois Law Enforcement Training Standards Board.
    Certification from an entity approved by the Illinois State Police that offers firearm instructor education and training in the use and safety of firearms.
from the ISP website.  That really narrows it down doesn't it.

I'll guess you have get 110 out 100 questions right to pass.  Plus I bet their might be a shooting component where the instructors have shoot nothing but X-ring or fail.   

Then there's the two day class figure at least $300-400.  Plus $150 for the license.


Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #160 on: July 12, 2013, 04:59:54 PM »
No, simply realistic.

We didn't get CCW because we had an overwhelming majority of pro-CCW folks in legislature.  We got it because a federal court put a gun to their heads.

The Dems redrew the all the election district maps after the last census.  They have Super-Majorities in both houses.  If Cullerton and Madigan agree on something, that's the way it will be. Period. End. Full Stop.  This bill was written in the "proverbial smoke filled room" with only Madigan, Phelps, Cullerton and few other legislators in attendance.  No NRA or ISRA or any other lobbyists. 

The ISP has 180 days to come up with an Application form (Seriously, you need 6 months to add a line for the instructor to sign saying you've completed 16 hours of training?)  Then they have to develop a "Course of CCW Instruction".  No real time limit on that.  Then they have to certify instructors. But first they have to have:from the ISP website.  That really narrows it down doesn't it.

I'll guess you have get 110 out 100 questions right to pass.  Plus I bet their might be a shooting component where the instructors have shoot nothing but X-ring or fail.   

Then there's the two day class figure at least $300-400.  Plus $150 for the license.




Are you ignoring or dismissing the motions filed in the same Court that forced carry?

And you didn't have a majority of pro-carry legislators because you didn't have any invested carriers to elect them.  Every permit will be a motivated vote for improvement. No matter how onerous there will be a pile of people getting them.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Scout26

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2013, 12:11:01 PM »
Ahhhh, now I see the disconnect.  You think that Illinois has a functioning democratically elected government.    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Chicago runs this state.  Every statewide office holder is from Chicago.  Our governor only won 3 of 102 counties, and won the election.

Mike Madigan determines what bills will make it to the floor, and only those he's sure will either pass, because he said so; or fail, because he wants them to.

Same with Cullerton in Senate.  If those two don't agree, then nothing passes.  That's why we don't have a budget or pension reform.   This state is broke, it pays $5 million PER DAY on just it's pension bonds.  And they can't figure out a solution.  Why, because the unions funnel money to the Dems. 

We would have 8, 10, 12 thousand people take a day off during the work week to go to IGOLD (Illinois Gun Owner Lobby Day) and swarm the capitol like giants yellow ants (Most of us wore yellow IGOLD t-shirts and sweaters.)   No mention of us in the news.   Jesse Jackson and Fr. Pfelger bring down 40 school kids a week later and it's the lead item on every Chicago TV station.

Should I even mention voting in Chicago?  Where the Dems pick up vanloads of homeless folks and go precinct to precinct giving them $5 a vote. 20-40 times a day, when they are not stuffing the ballot boxes the old fashioned way by sitting there, voting numerous ballots and then putting them in the ballot box.  especially dead people.   
 
We have a Oligarchy, disguised by the trappings of democracy.  Anyone who believes we have any say is an idiot or a fool. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Illinois carry status?
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2013, 12:54:30 PM »
Quote
We have a Oligarchy, disguised by the trappings of democracy.  Anyone who believes we have any say is an idiot or a fool.

There are 49 other states (or 56 depending on your source) 20-30 of them are fairly decent.
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