A little-known fact about the 1911

[Perd Hapley]

And now, Dr. Glensquiddle's All-Natural, Unbleached, Self-rising Ice Cream Sandwiches brings you...

LITTLE-KNOWN FACTS ABOUT THE 1911!


I was up late on Friday night, detail-stripping ye olde (actually fairly newe) 1911, and figured I would perform a function check once I had the frame re-assembled. Upon testing the thumb safety, I found that pulling the trigger disengaged the thumb safety and dropped yon hammer. My blood ran cold. What had I done?!

So I stayed up a little later. The next morning, I hung around the house, until I had worked up the nerve to go see the gun smith, and see what could be done. He had installed the thumb safety, so it had to be something he had done, or just an out-of-spec part, right? I explained the issue to him; how it worked OK with the slide in place, but when field-stripped, the thumb safety was broke! Horrors! He politely informed me that it was not a big deal. Without the slide in place, the thumb safety can travel higher than it normally would. As long as the slide keeps it from rising too high, it works.

[big sigh of relief]  

When I got home, I asked Internet, but it was not terribly forth-coming. I asked, and a couple of people on m1911.org agreed with the gunsmith. I'm surprised that this is apparently not something widely discussed. I'm not exactly brand new to the 1911, and I'd never heard about this before.

Or maybe when this has happened to other people, they didn't want to embarrass themselves by speaking about it. Well, I'm used to looking like an idiot, so...

[vaskidmark]

Without bothering to actually look it up or know what I'm talking about, my guess would be that the thumb safety needs something to press against/be pressed against by something in order to properly function.  That does not happen until you put the slide back, where it presses against/is pressed upon by the necessary part.

As long as the thumb safety works under the conditions it was designed to work underr, I'd say all is good in the world.  Any other way of looking at it would be to commit the heresy of saying JMB (PBUH) did not know what he was doing.  Recite three times the names of the major functional groups a 1911 is separated into when field stripped, load 100 rounds of ammo, and go sin no more.

stay safe.

[Tallpine]

I would have never have thought that Saint John's creation would not work properly when partially (dis)assembled  

My faith is shaken.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm not exactly brand new to the 1911, and I'd never heard about this before.

I'm not at all new to the 1911, and I've never heard this before. I suppose I've never thought about it, because I try not to pull the trigger and drop the hammer without the slide being in place.

[zahc]

Dropping the hammer without the slide sounds like it would be a Bad Idea, but I can't remeber what the hammer hits when the slide is not there.

[Waitone]

You just violated the 5th rule of gun safety.  Never fiddle with the controls of a 1911 if the slide is removed.
Go and sin no more.

[Perd Hapley]

Dropping the hammer without the slide sounds like it would be a Bad Idea, but I can't remeber what the hammer hits when the slide is not there.

It is, IF you just let the hammer fall.

[vaskidmark]

I would have never have thought that Saint John's creation would not work properly when partially (dis)assembled  

My faith is shaken.

Oh, my child of little faith.

When field stripped the thumb sfety works exactly and precisely as it was designed to act.  Which is not to stop the hammer from falling on the firing pin.

And then when the 1911 is properly reassembled the thumb safety works exactly and precisely as designed to stop the hammer in a properly assembled 1911 from falling on the firing pin.

stay safe.

[Levant]

Thanks for sharing that, fistful. I wish they had a thanks feature on the forum because taking one in the olde pride for the troops is a valiant act worthy of thanks.

[Nick1911]

Interesting!  I would not have guessed the linkages would work that way.

[Monkeyleg]

Good. You didn't just let the hammer fall. The pistol can be damaged (cracked hammer, etc) if it doesn't have a slide to hit.

[Perd Hapley]

Without bothering to actually look it up or know what I'm talking about, my guess would be that the thumb safety needs something to press against/be pressed against by something in order to properly function.  That does not happen until you put the slide back, where it presses against/is pressed upon by the necessary part.

If I'm understanding correctly, the slide itself is the part that's needed. The safety can go up as far as the notch in the slide will allow it to go. Without the slide in place, it can pivot further up, so the thing-a-ma-jig don't engage with the other thing-a-ma-jig.

If by "load 100 rounds of ammo," you mean shoot them, then that is what I did yesterday.

[Perd Hapley]

Thanks for sharing that, fistful. I wish they had a thanks feature on the forum because taking one in the olde pride for the troops is a valiant act worthy of thanks.

Thank you, sir. You are a gentleman and a schooner.

[Pharmacology]

Hmmm... I'll have to see if I can get mine to do this later.

I've often considered having mine machined a bit so as to allow the slide to be operated with the safety on.

[Perd Hapley]

Hmmm... I'll have to see if I can get mine to do this later.

Um, I doubt that's a good idea. If you do it, though, it might be one of the few things around here that really is my fault.

I've often considered having mine machined a bit so as to allow the slide to be operated with the safety on.

Probably a worse idea.

[Boomhauer]

Field stripped my 1911 tonight and it did not exhibit the behavior that Fistful wrote about in his OP.

[dogmush]

Mine don't do that. I use the safety to keep from dropping the hammer on the frame when I'm working on a frame.

The safety lug should block the sear whether or not the slide is on.  The safety lug should also catch on the frame hole when up.  That's what keeps the safety from being able to be pulled out.  It shouldn't touch the slide when the slide is at rest. 

Hold on, let me dig through my photobucket

[dogmush]

This picture shows a safety on and the sear blocked.  You can see the groove on the bottom of the safety lug (between the lug and the thumb pad) that catches on the frame to hold the safety in when the safety is off.  There is another on the top that rests on the frame window and captures the safety when it's on.



This shows the part of the Safety lug that your smith should have fit.  It sounds like the angle of this face is a little off so that if the safety goes up a little farther then normal the sear can cam the safety down.



I'd be more worried that he thinks the safety should be stopped by the slide.  If the slide is what stops the safety's upward movement there's a chance it's not fully locking into the frame when "on".  Then it could work itself out. 

It also just defies common sense.  The slide on a 1911 can move fore and aft on the frame quite a bit depending on the interaction between the barrel, cross pin and slide.  As it moves that angled cut would stop the safety in different positions.  If the safety was that touchy about height wear and tear as well as swapping top ends would cause safety issues.


Here's a link to a custom 1911 that clearly shows the safety isn't stopped in it's upward arc by the slide:
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/images/1911/Custom/Bullseye/Img_9352.jpg

Even if it works now, it's not "right"

I think your smith owes you a thumb safety.

[æg151337]

holy crap it got really 1911 religious real quick.

[Pharmacology]

Um, I doubt that's a good idea. If you do it, though, it might be one of the few things around here that really is my fault.



Probably a worse idea.

My 1911 wouldn't do what yours does, fwiw.

Well, I often drop the hammer when the gun is slideless to get underneath the hammer to clean it.  You just have to catch it with a bit of leather.

Also,  this is what I'm talking about:  http://www.novaksights.com/assets/images/guns/photogallery1911/pages/coltnext98L_jpg.htm
Notice how the slide and safety are machined to allow movement?