Author Topic: Iraq War II surpasses World War II  (Read 10727 times)

FreedomCommando

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« on: August 19, 2006, 12:07:56 PM »
Germany declared war on the US on December, 11, 1941, four days after Pearl Harbor. The US announced victory in Europe on May 8, 1945. That's one thousand, two hundred and forty-four days.

We've been in Iraq one thousand, two hundred and forty-seven days---and still the Administration has no exit strategy, no plan for victory and no clue what it is doing. In case you'd forgotten, George W. Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" aboard an aircraft carrier over three years ago.

"In the battle of Iraq," Bush said, "The United States and our allies have prevailed."

Perhaps that pronouncement was a little premature. Twelve hundred and four days later, our troops are still paying the price with no end in sight.  

Heckuva job, Bush, heckuva job, Cheney.

Ron

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2006, 01:33:16 PM »
While I was not in favor of going into Iraq I quickly became supportive of the mission once it began.

For whatever reason it was decided we needed a presence in the middle east (maybe to surround Iran?) and Iraq was considered a good gamble. A people somewhat used to secular government given the oportunity for freedom, sounded like it might work.

I have a lot of patience with this administration. They are bringing the fight to the enemy. Our homeland and our embassies have been kept safe by the military under the direction of this administration.

Under the Dems we were constantly attacked, WTC attack 1, our embassies, the Cole and culminating in WTC attack 2 9mos into Bush 43's first term. All handled as a law enforcement issue under Clinton. Utter failure to recognize the danger Islamofascism is to us and the free world in general. Saddam was close to being let out of his box. Our "allies" were dealing behind our back and pressure was mounting to drop the sanctions. Another failure of the leftist politicos.

Your vapid cliche attacks on Bush show your ignorance of the real world situation. We have few friends and many enemies. Diplomacy was used to lull us into a leftist stuper while Iran, North Korea and Islamo fascists were being used by Russia and China in a proxy war against us.

Boots on the ground in Iraq with part of the poulation as allies is better than an unfettered Saddam.

ilbob

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2006, 01:43:18 PM »
The short answer is WW2 really started in the late thirties when Japan began its attacks on its neighbors.

This is not an enemy that can be as easily defeated. there is no one to surrender because there is no one head of this snake. Many snake heads will need to be chopped off before this war is over.

I have said it before, not here, but other forums, that I would not be surprised to see this conflict last multiple decades. Radical Islam is just not going to be that easy to defeat. And that is what it will take.

I think we may well be in the easy part of the war now.

I dread the possibility of an idiot peacenik like most of the national dems being elected. It would be a long term military disaster of immense proportions to just give up and go home when victory in the current battles are in sight. But, do not be deceived, Afghanistan and Iraq are just the first battles. There may well be many more to come.
bob

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Car Knocker

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2006, 01:52:27 PM »
One could also argue that WWII was merely a continuation of WWI and the second phase started at the signing of the Armistice that "ended" WWI.
Don

mfree

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2006, 03:46:42 PM »
Uhm, last time I looked, we're still occupying territory in both Japan and Germany.

You want to compare apples to apples there snuffy, better give Iraq II about 70 years.

FreedomCommando

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2006, 03:48:33 PM »
GoRon wrote:
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For whatever reason it was decided we needed a presence in the middle east (maybe to surround Iran?)
You're really not sure, are you.

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I have a lot of patience with this administration.
I ran out of patience with this administration in the wake of 9-11 when it came out that the fedgov totally dropped the ball in the run-up to 9-11.

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They are bringing the fight to the enemy.
Sounds just like the stuff that Baghdad Bob used to fling.

THE WAS IN IRAQ HAS INCREASED WIDESPREAD HATRED OF THE US WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD, THUS FUELING AL QAEDA
Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until we invaded: now they have carved out a niche for themselves as the most intractably violent of the various insurgent factions. According to the CIA, "Iraq [since the invasion] has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of 'professionalized' terrorists."  

"I wasn't in the room with the president and Mr. Tenet. But I can tell that you that the people who were working against Osama bin Laden were assured from the first day that much of the work we had done in the last decade would be undone by that war."  ---Former CIA officer Michael Scheuer, 22-year veteran who led the agency's Osama Bin Laden taskforce.   Hardball with Chris Matthews, November 16 2004.

BUSH HAD OSAMA BIN LADEN SURROUNDED AT TORA BORA AND LET HIM GO
Former CIA officer Gary Berntsen, who led the CIA team in Afghanistan that was tasked with locating Osama bin Laden, claims in his 2005 book Jawbreaker that he and his team had pinpointed the location of Osama bin Laden. Also according to Bernsten, a number of al-Qaeda detainees later confirmed that bin Laden had escaped Tora Bora into Pakistan via an easternly route through snow covered mountains in the area of Parachinar, Pakistan. He also claims that bin Laden could have been captured if United States Central Command had committed the troops that Berntsen had requested. Former CIA office Gary Schroen concurs with this view. Pentagon documents seem to confirm this account.

Pat Buchanan has turned against the war. As has Bob Novak, William F. Buckley, Francis Fukuyama, John Derbyshire, John Mearsheimer, Andrew Bacevich, Charley Reese, Paul Craig Roberts, James Webb, George Will, etc.  

Now let's see you smear them all as "leftists."   Character assassination is the stock-in-trade of neocons.

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All handled as a law enforcement issue under Clinton.
George Will might disagree with you there. See his The Triumph of Unrealism.
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The London plot against civil aviation confirmed a theme of an illuminating new book, Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11." The theme is that better law enforcement, which probably could have prevented Sept. 11, is central to combating terrorism. F-16s are not useful tools against terrorism that issues from places such as Hamburg (where Mohamed Atta lived before dying in the North Tower of the World Trade Center) and High Wycombe, England.

FreedomCommando

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2006, 03:51:00 PM »
mfree wrote:
Quote
Uhm, last time I looked, we're still occupying territory in both Japan and Germany. You want to compare apples to apples there snuffy, better give Iraq II about 70 years.
You might want to read up on the US occupation and reconstruction of Germany and Japan.  There was no insurgency in Germany or Japan.  As soon as their belligerent governments surrended, the Germans and the Japanese cooperated with the reconstruction of their countries.

Ron

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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2006, 04:32:57 PM »
Quote
GoRon wrote:

    For whatever reason it was decided we needed a presence in the middle east (maybe to surround Iran?)

You're really not sure, are you.
I don't have that type of security clearance. I do agree with the sentiments of Thomas Friedman though:
Quote
In January 2004,Thomas Friedman wrote: "The real reason for this war  which was never stated  was to burst what I would call the 'terrorism bubble,' which had built up during the 1990s.

"This bubble was a dangerous fantasy, believed by way too many people in the Middle East. This bubble said that it was OK to plow airplanes into the World Trade Center, commit suicide in Israeli pizza parlors, praise people who do these things as 'martyrs' and donate money to them through religious charities.

"This bubble had to be burst, and the only way to do it was to go right into the heart of the Arab world and smash something -- to let everyone know that we, too, are ready to fight and die to preserve our open society. Yes, I know, it's not very diplomatic  it's not in the rule book  but everyone in the neighborhood got the message: Henceforth, you will be held accountable.

"Why Iraq, not Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Because we could  period."
Once that country was free from Saddam and given self determination the populace became accountable for the actions of the government. I want them all to be free to join the free world or align with the fascists. Lebonon is a good example. Hard to feel sorry for folks who vote Hezbollah into their government.

We have had two choices, the Republicans or the Democrats.

If you think Al Gore or John Kerry would have done a better job I think you are deluded.

If you are a third party guy you are kidding yourself. We have a two party system, wake up and deal with reality.

mfree

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2006, 04:46:14 PM »
Oh, yes, that's right, I forgot. The enemy in Japan and Germany were arguably "civilized". In Iraq, now that the regular army is defeated all that's left to fight are disgusting animals.

So... we should leave Iraq full of disgusting animals, let the Iraqis deal with them instead? What a nice thing to do on our part. Kick the ant's nest with people tied to the top and not have the decency to spray some insecticide.


And that little "run up to 9-11" thing, let's see... GW was officially in office for what, a bit under a year?  54'th inaugural swearing in was Jan 20, 2001. I'm sure it took a wee bit longer than eight months to get that whole mess together, flight schools and what not.

So, *which* administration dropped the ball?

(edited for typos, stiff fingers today. Joints shouldn't make noises like that...)

Sergeant Bob

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2006, 04:55:14 PM »
Don't feed the troll.
Same old lefty talking points, blah,blah,blah.
You forgot "Bush missed a dental appointment in the Guard!"
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

The Rabbi

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 05:10:29 PM »
Yes, al Qaeda would be rushing to our aid and offering humanitarian assistance in Iraq against Saddam Hussein if we hadnt invaded.
I find this argument especially repulsive because it is so stupid.
al Qaeda is a quasi-governmental entity whose primary mission is the defeat of the U.S. and the end of Western influence in the world.  Secondarily they want to wage war to convert the whole world to their particular screwy brand of Islam.  They are in Iraq because we are.  If we invaded N.Korea they would be in N.Korea.
We havent strengthened al Qaeda by invading Iraq, we have weakened them.  We have degraded their ability to move, to fund operations, to supply, to command and control.  We have killed or imprisoned most of their leaders and the rest are in hiding or running for their lives.
The US history of small wars is that we lose only when the American public demands an "end strategy" and cuts and runs.  We win when we sustain the effort.
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Guest

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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006, 06:16:56 PM »
Quote
You might want to read up on the US occupation and reconstruction of Germany and Japan.  There was no insurgency in Germany or Japan.  As soon as their belligerent governments surrended, the Germans and the Japanese cooperated with the reconstruction of their countries.
So what your saying is that we had better enemies in WWII? I heartily agree.

FreedomCommando

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006, 08:30:38 PM »
Quote
So what your saying is that we had better enemies in WWII? I heartily agree.
That really wasn't my point.   mfree made an ahistorical comparison of the current US occupation/counterinsurgency war in Iraq to the US occupation of Germany and Japan.   I simply recommeded that he read some history.  Were he to read, for example, the U.S. Army's official history, The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946, he would discover that not only was there no Nazi insurgency against the Allies, but that fraternization between former enemies was considered a bigger problem.  As the distinguished German historian Golo Mann summed it up in The History of Germany Since 1789, "The [Germans'] readiness to work with the victors, to carry out their orders, to accept their advice and their help was genuine; of the resistance which the Allies had expected in the way of 'werewolf' units and nocturnal guerrilla activities, there was no sign. &"

His foolish claim that Japan and Germany are to this day under US "occupation" is foolish and absurd, and shows that he doesn't grasp the meaning of the word "occupy."  

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So... we should leave Iraq...?
The Iraqis want us out.

The Bush administration and its supporters have long claimed that there is a silent majority of Iraqis who regard coalition forces as liberators, want those forces to stay for a prolonged period, oppose insurgent attacks on coalition troops, and are enthusiastic about creating a Western-style democracy for their country. According to a 2004 Gallup survey of Iraqi public opinion, that just isn't true.

57 percent wanted US-UK troops to leave "immediately." In the *expletive deleted*it areas, the sentiment is 61 percent and in the Sunni areas it is 65 percent. (And in Baghdad it is a stunning 75 percent).  51 percent supported attacks against coalition forces.  

At least the Kurds like us.  They probably ought to just split Iraq into Kurdistan, Shiastan, and Sunnistan, declare victory, and then leave.  But is the alternative? "Stay the course" as American soldiers continue to get killed and wounded with no end in sight?  Some 20 K American casualties to date. That's a lot dead soldiers, grieving families, soldiers with missing limbs, scars, etc. We've poured more than $308 billion down that rat hole. When's it going to stop?

Report: CIA Shutters Unit Leading Hunt for bin Laden

Quote
Same old lefty talking points, blah,blah,blah.
Ah yes, by lefties such as Buckley, Will, Buchanan, Novak.  Anyone who criticizes the president must be a "leftist."  

I'm a gun-owning Texan capitalist who has benefited from Bush's tax cuts.  No one in my family will ever have to work at Walmart, join the military or go without.  I don't have a leftwing bone in my body.  But I sure do recognize a majorleague f*ckup when I see one.  

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Yes, al Qaeda would be rushing to our aid and offering humanitarian assistance in Iraq against Saddam Hussein if we hadnt invaded. I find this argument especially repulsive because it is so stupid.
What an active imagination you have there, Rabbi.  No one makes such argument.

Quote
And that little "run up to 9-11" thing, let's see... GW was officially in office for what, a bit under a year?
How terribly unfair of us to expect Bush to do his job competently.  All that work, and all those meetings, having to read those complicated government reports and stuff..... we ought to give the guy a break. /hankie

Joe Conason has calculated that up until Sept. 11, 2001, Bush had spent 54 days at the ranch, 38 days at Camp David, and four days at the Bush compound in Kennebunkporta total of 96 days, or about 40 percent of his presidency, outside of Washington.

Hey Bush, ever hear of that crazy little thing called "the work ethic"?  

In December 2005 Bush justified warrantless wiretaps by invoking the case of two 9/11 hijackers whom the feds failed to trace before the attacks. Bush declared, "Two of the terrorist hijackers who flew a jet into the Pentagon, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, communicated while they were in the United States to other members of al Qaeda who were overseas. But we didn't know they were here, until it was too late."

Bush neglected to mention that the two culprits were renting rooms in the house of an FBI informant prior to the hijacking.

These two known Al-Qaeda operatives were at a summit of terrorist plotters in Malaysia in 2000. The CIA knew that the two already possessed visas permitting them to travel to the United States. Yet the CIA failed to place their names on the "terrorist watch list," which would have alerted other federal agencies to the danger and blocked them from entering the United States. Sen. Richard Shelby observed in late 2002 that the CIAs negligence "allowed at least two such terrorists the opportunity to live, move, and prepare for the attacks without hindrance from the very federal officials whose job it is to find them."

On August 23, 2001 the CIA finally placed the names of al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi on the terrorist watch list and notified the FBI that the two men were likely somewhere in the United States.

Once the CIA notified the FBI of the presence in the United States of two suspected terrorists, the FBI could have quickly run a few Internet searches to snare the San Diego residential address of al-Mihdhar. They were in the country operating under their own names, had bank accounts, etc.  But this step was not taken until after the 9/11 attacks.

Perhaps Bush considered these facts and drew the natural Washington conclusion: the more federal agencies screw up, the more entitled Bush becomes to absolute power.

Yes, Clinton screwed up also.  So what?  At least he didn't get us bogged down in a Middle East quagmire.

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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2006, 12:39:46 AM »
Quote
That really wasn't my point.
Do you intend on making one?

LAK

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 01:28:21 AM »
Al Kidya was a CIA invention; they were even involved in the campaign by the heroin cartel strongarm popularly known as the "Kosovo Liberation Army" against the Serbs.

If Al Kidya was actually as claimed by the Bush administration, and actually desired the "fall" of the United States, they could have accomplished that in less than three months - without any exotic weaponry, biological or otherwise.

As noted by FreedomCommando, the "for" and "against" of this phoney "war" have been nicely pigeonholed as the "right" and "left". Nothing could be further from the truth, and many names in the government, military, academic and general professional world could be added to his list of actual conservatives who see through the facade. Like Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst under Ronald Reagan.

The grand prize in this mad campaign is the Caspian basin and surrounding region - at the expense of our blood and money.

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roo_ster

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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2006, 02:21:04 AM »
I don't think of it as feeding the troll, I consider it my compassionate duty to speak facts to ignorance and truth to fabrications.  

I am reminded of a relative of mine who works with special ed kids.  She can spend months with a child, just geting the child to hold a pencil.  In a similar way, I hope my efforts will let a fact slip in through the tightly clamped sphincter of ignorance.

Quote from: FreedomCommando
THE WAS IN IRAQ HAS INCREASED WIDESPREAD HATRED OF THE US WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD, THUS FUELING AL QAEDA
Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq until we invaded: now they have carved out a niche for themselves as the most intractably violent of the various insurgent factions. According to the CIA, "Iraq [since the invasion] has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of 'professionalized' terrorists."
Muslims have hated us* since the seventh century after Christ.  They will go on hating us until there is a major change in Islam or there are no muslims.  This is going to be a long war.

* "us" defined as "non-muslims"

Quote from: FreedomCommando
Quote
So what your saying is that we had better enemies in WWII? I heartily agree.
That really wasn't my point.   mfree made an ahistorical comparison of the current US occupation/counterinsurgency war in Iraq to the US occupation of Germany and Japan.   I simply recommeded that he read some history.  Were he to read, for example, the U.S. Army's official history, The U.S. Army in the Occupation of Germany 1944-1946, he would discover that not only was there no Nazi insurgency against the Allies, but that fraternization between former enemies was considered a bigger problem.  As the distinguished German historian Golo Mann summed it up in The History of Germany Since 1789, "The [Germans'] readiness to work with the victors, to carry out their orders, to accept their advice and their help was genuine; of the resistance which the Allies had expected in the way of 'werewolf' units and nocturnal guerrilla activities, there was no sign. &"

His foolish claim that Japan and Germany are to this day under US "occupation" is foolish and absurd, and shows that he doesn't grasp the meaning of the word "occupy."
Pot, meet kettle:
Werewolf: The Story of the Nazi Resistance Movement 1944-1945
http://www.discovermilitaryhistory.com/dmh8/0850525136AMUS253017.shtml

Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/wer.htm

Yes, do read some history.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

The Rabbi

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2006, 05:08:39 AM »
Quote from: LAK
Al Kidya was a CIA invention; they were even involved in the campaign by the heroin cartel strongarm popularly known as the "Kosovo Liberation Army" against the Serbs.

If Al Kidya was actually as claimed by the Bush administration, and actually desired the "fall" of the United States, they could have accomplished that in less than three months - without any exotic weaponry, biological or otherwise.

As noted by FreedomCommando, the "for" and "against" of this phoney "war" have been nicely pigeonholed as the "right" and "left". Nothing could be further from the truth, and many names in the government, military, academic and general professional world could be added to his list of actual conservatives who see through the facade. Like Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst under Ronald Reagan.

The grand prize in this mad campaign is the Caspian basin and surrounding region - at the expense of our blood and money.

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http://ssunitedstates.org
You left out the scheming by Zionist elements and Israel's Amen Corner in Congress.
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TarpleyG

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2006, 05:37:37 AM »
Guy regeistered yesterday.  I think I smell something...what could it be???  Oh yeah, A TROLL!!!

Greg

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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2006, 05:52:40 AM »
Quote
No one in my family will ever have to work at Walmart, join the military or go without.
Seems like that adds a bit of prejudice to your thesis. JMO.
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Ron

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2006, 05:57:13 AM »
I don't think he is a troll, just passionate about his beliefs.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2006, 06:53:48 AM »
This Tracinski guy has a reasonably good take on what's happening in all this mideast stuff:

http://www.tiadaily.com

It's a bit long, but I think it's worth the read.  In part,

"Iran's theocracy has chosen, as the nation's
new president, a religious fanatic who believes in the impending, apocalyptic
triumph of Islam over the infidels. He openly proclaims his desire to create an
Iranian-led Axis that will unite the Middle East in the battle against America,
and he proclaims his desire to "wipe Israel off the map,"
telling an
audience of Muslim leaders that "the main solution" to the conflict in Lebanon
is "the elimination of the Zionist regime." (Perhaps this would be better
translated as Ahmadinejad's "final solution"to the problem of Israel.)"

Note that this position is not at all different from what ensued after the Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in Iran in 1979.  And the US was "The Great Satan" during Carter's presidency (not that Carter had anything to do with Khomeini's view).

I don't want to live under Sharia, myownself--and that's the only way to stop this renewal of the "Advance of Islam" as proposed by the Jihadists.  Convert or die--now or later.

As far as 9/11?  it would have happened with Gore as president.  After all, 9/11 was actually WTC-2; WTC-1 was in 1993.  

Face it:  Our fundamental system lends itself to a WW II-style effort, which was of no particularly different style in Desert Storm or in the invasion of Iraq.  It does not have much in the way of protection against such as Al Qaida and/or IEDs.

Art
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2006, 09:53:34 AM »
This may be slightly off-topic, but I'm gonna ask it here anyway.

Had Saddam not been defeated, does anyone else think he would have been firing (or at least threatening to fire) scud missiles into Tel Aviv during the recent war between Israel and Hezbollah?  Am I the only one to think that Iraq II just saved a boatload of Israeli lives, and generally helped keep the Mid-East stable during the recent war in Lebanon?

The Rabbi

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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2006, 10:17:22 AM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
This may be slightly off-topic, but I'm gonna ask it here anyway.

Had Saddam not been defeated, does anyone else think he would have been firing (or at least threatening to fire) scud missiles into Tel Aviv during the recent war between Israel and Hezbollah?  Am I the only one to think that Iraq II just saved a boatload of Israeli lives, and generally helped keep the Mid-East stable during the recent war in Lebanon?
Saddam had a 20 year history of supporting terrorism, including al Qaeda, as the Czech connection proved.  He was technically an enemy of Hezbolla since they are an Iranian creation but if they were fighting Israelis that was good enough for him.
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FreedomCommando

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2006, 04:11:02 PM »
Quote
Pot, meet kettle: Werewolf: The Story of the Nazi Resistance Movement 1944-1945 http://www.discovermilitaryhistory.com/ & 3017.shtml
Did even bother to read this book? or even the review?

"Charles Whiting has written some great books on world war two. This reviewer did not find Werewolf one of his best. It describes the establishment of nazi underground saboteurs working behind enemy lines in late 1944 thru 1945. Although non fiction, the author chooses a novelesque approach dealing with the five men and one woman who successfully murdered Franz Oppenoff, the first German mayor of Aachen under American control. But there is little else of substance in the book. Perhaps this reviewer expected too much. It is accepted that Werewolf never really got off the ground as the Reich collapsed, so maybe there is not too much to tell."

There simply is not much to tell.

Quote
Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/wer.htm
Again, aside from the assassination of the mayor of Aachen, the "Werewolves" amounted to nothing besides occasional anti-occupation leaflets and graffiti, and a few isolated acts of sabotage.  As Antony Beevor observes in The Fall of Berlin 1945,

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In the west, the Allies found that Werwolf was a fiasco. Bunkers prepared for Werwolf operations had supplies "for 10-15 days only" and the fanaticism of the Hitler Youth members they captured had entirely disappeared. They were "no more than frightened, unhappy youths." Few resorted to the suicide pills which they had been given "to escape the strain of interrogation and, above all, the inducement to commit treason." Many, when sent off by their controllers to prepare terrorist acts, had sneaked home.
According to America's Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, a study by former Ambassador James Dobbins, who had a lead role in the Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo reconstruction efforts, and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germanyand Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan caseswas zero.

There was no insurgency in Germany against Allied occupation.  There is no American "occupation" of Germany or Japan in any meaningful sense of the word.  American soldiers do not man roadblocks, shoot up cars that get "too close" to American convoys, torture the locals, rape teenage women and murder the parents, or routinely shoot up a houses of innocent local civilians.  See Officer Called Haditha Routine, Marine Said Deaths Didn't Merit Inquiry.

Iraq isn't anything like post-WWII occupation of Germany, Japan or Italy.   It's a stupid comparison made by people either ignorant of history, or by those who know better but set out to deceive (such as Rumsfeld).

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Saddam had a 20 year history of supporting terrorism, including al Qaeda, as the Czech connection proved.
Merely repeating Cheney's lies doesn't prove a damn thing, Rabbi.  The intelligence community (CIA, NSA, DIA, etc) view, confirmed by the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission Report and the Senate Report of Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq, is that there was not a cooperative effort between the two and that Saddam did not support the 9/11 attacks.

After the allegation surfaced that 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta was seen in Prague in 2001 meeting with an Iraqi diplomat, a number of investigations looked into the possibility that this had occurred. All of them concluded that all known evidence suggested that such a meeting was unlikely at best. The January 2003 CIA report Iraqi Support for Terrorism noted that "the most reliable reporting to date casts doubt on this possibility" that such a meeting occurred.

Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet released "the most complete public assessment by the agency on the issue" in a statement to the Senate Armed Services Committee in July 2004, stating that the CIA was "increasingly skeptical" any such meeting took place.  John McLaughlin, who at the time was the Deputy Director of the CIA, described the extent of the Agency's investigation into the claim: "Well, on something like the Atta meeting in Prague, we went over that every which way from Sunday. We looked at it from every conceivable angle. We peeled open the source, examined the chain of acquisition. We looked at photographs. We looked at timetables. We looked at who was where and when. It is wrong to say that we didn't look at it. In fact, we looked at it with extraordinary care and intensity and fidelity."

A New York Times investigation involving "extensive interviews with leading Czech figures" reported that Czech officials had backed off the claim.  Both the FBI and the Czech police chief investigated the issue and came to similar conclusions; FBI director Robert S. Mueller III noted that the FBI's investigation "ran down literally hundreds of thousands of leads and checked every record we could get our hands on, from flight reservations to car rentals to bank accounts." The 9/11 Commission investigation, which looked over both the FBI and Czech intelligence investigations, concluded that "[n]o evidence has been found that Atta was in the Czech Republic in April 2001." The Commission still could not "absolutely rule out the possibility" that Atta was in Prague on 9 April traveling under an alias, but the Commission concluded that "There was no reason for such a meeting, especially considering the risk it would pose to the operation. By April 2001, all four pilots had completed most of their training, and the muscle hijackers were about to begin entering the United States. The available evidence does not support the original Czech report of an Atta-Ani meeting." (p. 229)

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Guy regeistered yesterday.  I think I smell something...what could it be???  Oh yeah, A TROLL!!!
I've been reading the board since it opened.  I've been on THR for years.   I strongly opposed Clinton when he was president.  Hell, just today I attended a GOP fundraiser for a local congressman.

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I don't think he is a troll, just pasionate about his beliefs.
GoRon, thank you.  

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Seems like that adds a bit of prejudice to your thesis. JMO.
My father served in the Navy in WWI.  My grandfather served in the Army in WWI and WWII.  And you call me "prejudiced"?    None of my progeny will have to serve in the military in order to get to college.  If they do, it is because they will want to.    

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Muslims have hated us* since the seventh century after Christ.  They will go on hating us until there is a major change in Islam or there are no muslims.  This is going to be a long war.
Some do and some don't.    US foreign policy under the neocons serves only to strengthen those who do.

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Do you intend on making one?
You can lead a horse to water....

Ben

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Iraq War II surpasses World War II
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2006, 05:05:57 PM »
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And you call me "prejudiced"?
No, I said your statement prejudiced your thesis. Two entirely different things. You added "to pay for college" later. Your original statement made it sound like you equated the military with Walmart, as if to say it's something people do if they can't do anything else. If that's how you actually felt about the military, it would prejudice your argument re: a military solution to Iraq.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."