Iraq War II surpasses World War II

[Brad Johnson]

just passionate about his beliefs.

So are the poeple who wear the SemTex suits.

Brad

[The Rabbi]

Iraq War II surpasses World War II

How?  Solely on the basis of how long we've had soldiers in country?  

Even with only a fraction of the casualties?  

Have any cities been fire-bombed or atom-bombed?

Wasn't poison gas used in WWII?  Has it been used in this war?

How many nations have been taken over, annexed or invaded by either side?  

Are any Americans out there collecting srap metal?  Are we rationing rubber?

We spent 12 years in the Philippines (1898-1910) and 13 in Panama (1901-1914).  Small wars take time.

[Dannyboy]

I've been listening to some Henry Rollins (ex frontman for Black Flag, current Rollins Band head, actor, etc) "spoken word" albums

Wow, I'm not alone.  Black Coffee Blues is a good one.

[mtnbkr]

I've been listening to some Henry Rollins (ex frontman for Black Flag, current Rollins Band head, actor, etc) "spoken word" albums

Wow, I'm not alone.  Black Coffee Blues is a good one.

I'll have to check it out.  I'm not a huge fan of his music (I like it in small doses), but I love his spoken word stuff.  I enjoy his perspective and sense of humor.

Back to our regularly scheduled Bush-bashing...

Chris

[LAK]

[The Rabbi]"I would rather pursue this subject and let you express your views.  Nothing will discredit your arguments better than that."

Interesting switch on your part.

I addressed some points raised in the subject matter - it was you who came up with "Zionists" and "the Amen Corner in Congress".

You - not I.

--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[The Rabbi]

[The Rabbi]"I would rather pursue this subject and let you express your views.  Nothing will discredit your arguments better than that."

Interesting switch on your part.

I addressed some points raised in the subject matter - it was you who came up with "Zionists" and "the Amen Corner in Congress".

You - not I.

actually it was the Keyboard--oops, Freedom Commando who first introduced this little nugget.

[BayouBlogger]

LAK wrote:

I addressed some points raised in the subject matter - it was you who came up with "Zionists" and "the Amen Corner in Congress".  You - not I.

The Rabbi responded:

actually it was the Keyboard--oops, Freedom Commando who first introduced this little nugget.

Flat wrong.  FreedomCommando made no mention of "Zionist" anything.  

Rabbi, why do you falsify something which can so easily be checked out? Go read your own post #17 in this thread posted 2006-08-20 04:08:39.  

You left out the scheming by Zionist elements and Israel's Amen Corner in Congress.

That was the first use of the term "Zionist" or "Israel's Amen Corner" in this thread.

[The Rabbi]

LAK wrote:

Flat wrong.  FreedomCommando made no mention of "Zionist" anything.  

Rabbi, why do you falsify something which can so easily be checked out? Go read your own post #17 in this thread posted 2006-08-20 04:08:39.

And the neocon amen corner in this coiuntry will close ranks, forget history, pretend that cynical men in D.C. are idealists oh-so-concerned about human rights and democracy

Eveyone knows that "neo-com amen corner" is code for Jews/Zionists.

[FreedomCommando]

We spent 12 years in the Philippines (1898-1910) and 13 in Panama (1901-1914).  Small wars take time.

And blood, too.  See Philippine-American War.  

"The shift to guerrilla warfare, however, only angered the Americans into acting more ruthlessly than before. They began taking no prisoners, burning whole villages, and routinely shooting surrendering Filipinos. Much worse were the concentration camps that civilians were forced into, after being suspected of being guerrilla sympathizers. Thousands of civilians died in these camps. In nearly all cases, the civilians suffered much worse than the actual Filipino guerrillas."

No doubt the future leaders of the SS were taking notes on the American way to deal with the local "terrorists."  

Those ungrateful natives, of course, failed to understand our awesomely noble intentions.  Philippine military deaths are estimated at 20,000 with 16,000 actually counted, while civilian deaths numbered between 250,000 and 1,000,000 Filipinos. Many American officers and soldiers called war a "*let's not go there* killing business."

Mutatis mutandis, now US officers and soldiers routintely refer to the Iraqis as "hajis" and "ragheads."  

Eveyone knows that "neo-com amen corner" is code for Jews/Zionists.

That's absurd.  Re-read my post in which used the term and you will see it had not connection to Zionist or Jewish anything.  And in any event, you will notice that you mentioned Israel before I mentioned the "neocon Amen corner."

Some neocons - Bill and Irving Kristol, John Podhoretz - are Jewish while other neocons - e.g., Michael Novak, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Frank Gaffney, and Max Boot - are not.  

Perhaps, Rabbi, you should read the May 12, 2004 issue of The New Yorker magazine in which appeared an article by Seymour Hersh about the "neocon takeover of the Pentagon," which he blames for manipulating evidence "regarding Iraqs possible possession of weapons of mass destruction and connection with Al Qaeda" as a justification for invading Iraq.

"They call themselves, self-mockingly, the Cabala small cluster of policy advisers and analysts now based in the Pentagons Office of Special Plans," Hersh wrote. He claims that "their operation, which was conceived by Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, has brought about a crucial change in direction in the American intelligence community" and that they "have helped to shape public opinion and American policy toward Iraq."

Is Hersh an anti-Semite?  Or is he a self-hating Jew?

Your words remind me of the observation made by Matt Barganier when he had a few minutes to kill and decided to read "something non-work-related, something wonderfully distant from the carnage in the Middle East or the police state at home. Maybe something about art, or sports, or science. For instance, today I read a piece at Salon.com about male circumcision, arguments for and against."

Anyway, at the end of the piece, Slates editors posted a few of the most insightful comments from readers. And at the conclusion of the third comment, in reference to an upcoming anti-circumcision conference in Seattle, one of Slates all-star commenters writes,

"Symposia such as the one in Seattle have more than a whiff of hysteria about them. I wouldnt dare to suggest that there might be a small hint of anti-semitism as well."

Which, stripped of sophomoric coyness, means, The anti-circumcision movement is driven by hatred of Jews.

Ah, anti-Semitism: the one topic no discussion in this country is ever allowed to omit. Posterity will have a field day with us.

[The Rabbi]

So your argument is that the war in the Philippines made Americans act like proto-Nazis and therefore we need to avoid all guerrila wars or we will end up acting like Nazis?
And because some people iidentified as "Neo Cons" are not Jewish and Jewish people have used the term then therefore it is not a term of anti-semitism.
Bosch.
The term came in an infamous essay by Pat Buchanan wherein he accused "the neo-cons and their amen corner in Washington", meaning AIPAC and those who support them of fomenting the war in Iraq to serve Israeli interests.  He continues that good American boys with names like Washington and Smith will die while boys with names like Schwartz and Stein won't.  I am quoting from memory here.  I could look up the essay but I am about to eat dinner and it is too nauseating, even years later.
Every time I see "neo-cons and their Amen corner in Washington" the radar goes on.  No one uses this term without its original meaning.

[FreedomCommando]

So your argument is that the war in the Philippines made Americans act like proto-Nazis and therefore we need to avoid all guerrila wars or we will end up acting like Nazis?

No, that's not my argument.

To the extent that you act like a Nazi, then yes, you are a Nazi regardless of whether you speak English, German, or ....some other language.

The US invasion and occupation of The Phillipines was about as noble as the German invasion of Poland.  Wars of choice, fought for conquest, intended to extend the empire.  

Here is a video about neocons and the danger that they pose. We as a nation will be paying the price for a long time.

And because some people iidentified as "Neo Cons" are not Jewish and Jewish people have used the term then therefore it is not a term of anti-semitism.

Yes, that is what I am saying. Do you know that neocons frequently apply the term to themselves? See Irving Kristol, Neo-Conservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea or The Neocon Reader by Irwin Stelzer.  
 
Look, even the word "Jew" can be a term of anti-Semitism depending on context. So what?  

The term came in an infamous essay by Pat Buchanan wherein he accused "the neo-cons and their amen corner in Washington", ...

The term has been around for 85 years although its meaning has shifted over time.  David Brooks claims that there is no such thing as a neoconservative.  I guess someone should tell Kristol and Stelzer that.

Every time I see "neo-cons and their Amen corner in Washington" the radar goes on.  No one uses this term without its original meaning.

Nonsense.  Do a google search and you will see the term "amen corner" thrown around without any connection to Jews, Israel, Zionists, etc.  

You see anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist.

[The Rabbi]

Then I dont know what your argument is.  I doubt you do, other than to express some discontent with Bush and the administration.

[roo_ster]

FC doesn't have a conventional argument.  He has substituted spleen-venting for argumentation and focus-changing when presented with inconvenient facts.  

Oh, and the Pat Buchanan "IDF and their amen corner" bit came out in ~1996.  It was explicitly anti-Israel* and could definitely be construed as anti-semitic to those sensitive to such**.  To use such a constrction in conversation with Jewish hints ("neocon" being a pretty good hint) is evidence of one of three things:
1. Ignorance.  The person has no knowledge of that construction's use by Pat Buchanan...or never really understood it
2. Anti-semitism.  The author knew what he was writing.
3. Goat-Getting.  The author knew what he wa swriting and did so to get a rise out of the Hebrews.

I'll give FC the benefit of hte doubt and assume ignorance on his part.



* Pat would say, "anti-pro-Israel American foreign policy."  Yeah, that was my position, too...when Ehud Barak pulled out of southern Lebanon & treated with Yassir Arafat (may his mottled turkey waddle rot in hades).  "Land for Peace"  Feh. They got "Land for Strife."

** I am not so worried about Pat.  He has marginalized himself since breaking bread with the commie Lenora Fulani in his Reform Party run for POTUS.  Also, even if one were to grant he is an anti-semite, he is mild, small taters compared the anti-semites who run around the USA today & get air time.  The local "moderate" muslim leaders in my neck of the woods sometimes seem like swarthy Klansmen without the sheets.  They say the most outrageous sh!t, some of it blatantly anti-semetic, and nobdy in the media calls them on it.

[Lee]

"Then I dont know what your argument is.  I doubt you do, other than to express some discontent with Bush and the administration."

"We've been in Iraq one thousand, two hundred and forty-seven days---and still the Administration has no exit strategy, no plan for victory and no clue what it is doing."

I'd say that sums it up pretty well actually.  Can't say I disagree...nor do some of our Generals from what I've read.  
I'd bet that D.D.  Eisenhower is spinning rapidly in his grave about now.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/de34.html

[The Rabbi]

"We've been in Iraq one thousand, two hundred and forty-seven days---and still the Administration has no exit strategy, no plan for victory and no clue what it is doing."

I'd say that sums it up pretty well actually.  Can't say I disagree...nor do some of our Generals from what I've read.  
I'd bet that D.D.  Eisenhower is spinning rapidly in his grave about now.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/de34.html

What was our exit strategy in Germany post 1945?  What was our exit strategy in any small war we've ever fought?
What would "victory" look like?

If you answer those two questions you will have U.S. strategy.  To make an arbitrary deadline in that kind of situation is to declare defeat.

[Perd Hapley]

Do a google search and you will see the term "amen corner" thrown around without any connection to Jews, Israel, Zionists, etc.

Well, duh.  Rabbi wasn't talking about that term by itself.

[BayouBlogger]

Well, duh.  Rabbi wasn't talking about that term by itself.

The National Review blog used the term "amen corner."   ("The Vatican's Amen corner.")

It isn't anti-Semitic to refer to an "amen corner," even a "neocon amen corner."  

That's just your active imagination.

Last poll I checked, most Jews oppose Iraq War II.   Usually I'd give you the cite, but it's kinda late here, and I'm tired. (If someone can prove me wrong here, go ahead.)  My point is that I don't think that Iraq War I or Iraq War II were "wars for Israel" or the result of some kind of Jewish plot.  For cryin' out loud, I shouldn't even have to say this. I'm am kinda tired of anti-Semitism being used as a club to shut down criticism of US foreign policy, especially in the Middle East.  Wait, does that make me an "anti-Semite"?  (I oppose foreign aid to Ireland.  Guess I'm anti-Catholic, except that I oppose foreign aid to any and everyone.  Guess I just hate everyone.)
========

Did you hear the one about the rabbi who walks into a psychiatrist's office?  The doc administers a Rorschach inkblot test.

Doc: "What do you see in this one?"

Rabbi: "That's a picture of an anti-Semite."

Doc: "OK, let's go on to the next one.  What do you see in this one?"

Rabbi: "That's a picture of a Jew being mistreated by an anti-Semite."

Doc: "What about this one?"

Rabbi: "That's a picture of Pat Buchanan going on about Jews."

Doc:  "You seem kinda fixated on anti-Semitism."

Rabbi: "Me fixated? You're the one with all these anti-Semitic pictures!"

====

Then I dont know what your argument is.

Yours is apparently something like "kill as many Arabs as you have to until they submit."  They're all just "vermin," "cockroaches" and and "two-legged beasts," right? Just need to go in there and clean out those "nests of terrorists."  Buncha [uel=http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0521-08.htm]"hajis,"[/url] "ragheads," and sand niggers," right?  Those are the terms commonly used by US soldiers and officers stationed in Iraq to dehumanize the "enemy."  Once you believe that the people you are stomping are only Untermenschen, then you can more easily slaughter them and rape their 14-year old daughters.

Here's an argument for you: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice are war criminals who practice deceit every time they open their mouths.  How's that?  Clear enough for you?

President William McKinley explained to the ladies of Methodist Missionary Society how he decided that the United States should conquer the Philippines in 1900.
"I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God...and one night late it came to me this way...there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all...and Christianize them."   100 years ago we claimed to be  spreading "Christianity" as we extended our empire; today we claim to be spreading "democracy" and "freedom" as we extend our empire. The US is building a dozen permanent bases in Iraq.  It doesn't matter how the elections go in 2006 or 2008; the US fgedgov has no intention of leaving Iraq. Ever.

What was our exit strategy in Germany post 1945?

Last I checked, we never exited.

What was our exit strategy in any small war we've ever fought?

Mostly we don't exit.  We plant the flag and stay.  Even if our troops leave, our spies and diplomats stay behind to ensure continued US hegemony. Every once in a while the US or its puppet regime is forced out by the locals (Iran, Nicaragua), or US political leadership calculates that the costs of staying supercede the benefit of continued war (Vietnam).  Very rare, but it has happened.

The US prefers to rule behind the scenes, but wont flinch at sponsoring a bloodbath if policy demands it.  They'll send out press releases, and the war mongers on FOX will stand up and applaud.

What would "victory" look like?

Before the invasion, the National Intelligence Council "predicted that an American-led invasion of Iraq would increase support for political Islam and would result in a deeply divided Iraqi society prone to violent internal conflict."   A CIA report of May 2005 confirmed that "Iraq has become a magnet for Islamic militants similar to Soviet-occupied Afghanistan two decades ago and Bosnia in the 1990s."  The CIA concluded that "Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat."  

There is little doubt that the US invasion of Iraq had the effect of "greatly strengthening the popular appeal of anti-democratic radicals such as those Al Qaeda and other jihadi salafis" throughout the Muslim world.  Take a look at Indonesia.  In 2, 75 percent of Indonesians viewed Americans favorabl. Thsi number fell to 61 percent  by 2002 and 15 percent after the invasion of Iraq, with 80 percent saying that they feared an attack by the United States.  These sentiments correlate with greater readiness for Islam to play a broader role in public life, and tolerance of and cooperation with Islamic radicals.

Heckuva job, Bush.

[Lee]

Rabbi- We went to Germany because Hitler was bent on conquering the world.  We went to Iraq to eliminate a tyrant who supposedly had nukes, chem-bio weapons, and was hated by his people, who we were told wanted to be free of his terrorism.  Apparently we were wrong on all three counts. I don't remember any talk back then of molding the world to our liking with the blood and gold of our childrens children.
I wasn't opposed to what Bush did initially...and I still think it has value...but there comes a time when a person (or a nation) has to realize that they really screwed up, and develope an alternate plan.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Rabbi- We went to Germany because Hitler was bent on conquering the world.  We went to Iraq to eliminate a tyrant who supposedly had nukes, chem-bio weapons, and was hated by his people, who we were told wanted to be free of his terrorism.  Apparently we were wrong on all three counts. I don't remember any talk back then of molding the world to our liking with the blood and gold of our childrens children.
I wasn't opposed to what Bush did initially...and I still think it has value...but there comes a time when a person (or a nation) has to realize that they really screwed up, and develope an alternate plan.

Alright, so let's say Bush screwed up and we need an alternate plan.  What would that alternate plan be?

What if it was YOU inthe oval office?  What would you do differently as President?  What's you're alternate plan, President Lee?



(Incidentally, the folks I know who have lived in Iraq, both soldiers and civillians, tell me that you're wrong about the Iraqi people.  They DID hate Saddam, they ARE glad he's been removed, and they DO prefer the current situation over the former tyrrany.  FWIW.)

[LAK]

[The Rabbi]Eveyone knows that "neo-com amen corner" is code for Jews/Zionists.

.... I think what the Rabbi is actually referring to is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee or "AIPAC" - and the antics of people like Steve Rosen, Keith Weissman etc - and spies like Douglas Feith going back to others like Rafael Eitan, Ben-Menashe, Jonathan Pollard etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[richyoung]

Argue with the official historians of the US Army who tell us that there was essentially no resistance to US occupation aside from a few incidents here and there.  According to former Ambassador James Dobbins and a team of RAND Corporation researchers, the total number of post-conflict American combat casualties in Germanyand Japan, Haiti, and the two Balkan caseswas ZERO.  As in ZIP, NADA, NONE, not a single case.

Your OWN WORDS:"Earth to Flashbunny: politicians lie routinely."  Either Dobbins is lying, or an idiot

If there are any documented cases of American soldiers in Germany getting killed by Germans after the surrender, then you may provide evidence at this time.

So if an attack doesn't kill someone, just blows a leg or an arm off, it somehow doesn't count?  OK - we'll play it YOUR way - ask and ye shall receive:

"..there were four major attacks by Werwolf troops in the Western zones of occupation. The new anti-Nazi Lord "Mayor of Aachen was assassinated...several weeks before the Nazi surrender, on Himmlers direct orders. Field Marshal Montgomerys liaison officer and the Soviet commandant of Berlin were both killed in ambushes; the first was hushed up and the latter was only discovered to be an attack because the Soviet counterclaims were marred by glaring inconsistencies. A bombing of a police station claimed 44 victims.  ...A Pentagon report listed 42 American soldiers "killed as a result of enemy action" between June and December 1945. In 1946, there were three.  ...individual operations were reported as late as 1947"

From an article by Alexander Rubin in the Canadian Free Press.

And from an article on Minutemen of the Third Reich.(history of the Nazi Werewolf guerilla movement)
"The Werewolves specialised in ambushes and sniping, and took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers -- perhaps even that of the first Soviet commandant of Berlin, General N.E. Berzarin, who was rumoured to have been waylaid in Charlottenburg during an incident in June 1945. Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans. Techniques for harassing the occupiers were given widespread publicity through Werewolf leaflets and radio propaganda, and long after May 1945 the sabotage methods promoted by the Werewolves were still being used against the occupying powers."

Otherwise such bogus claims occupy the same Planet Neocon with Iraqi WMD, Saddam's support for Al Aqeda, Atta's meeting in prague, Saddam's purchase of Nigerian uranium, and any number of other inventions of the rich fantasy life of collective neocon imagination.   SS "Werewolven" are teh stuff of schlocky teen comic books.

How's that foot taste?  Next time, you might do some RESEARCH, BEFORE you decide to share your wisdom, or lack thereof, with everyone.

[The Rabbi]

Here's an argument for you: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice are war criminals who practice deceit every time they open their mouths.  How's that?  Clear enough for you?

What was our exit strategy in any small war we've ever fought?

Mostly we don't exit.  We plant the flag and stay.  Even if our troops leave, our spies and diplomats stay behind to ensure continued US hegemony. Every once in a while the US or its puppet regime is forced out by the locals (Iran, Nicaragua), or US political leadership calculates that the costs of staying supercede the benefit of continued war (Vietnam).  Very rare, but it has happened.

I hadn't realized this site had become a draw from the DNC.  "U.S. hegemony"?  "War criminals"?  "Puppet regimes"?  This stuff went out in the 1970s.

[Perd Hapley]

We went to Iraq to eliminate a tyrant who supposedly had nukes, chem-bio weapons, and was hated by his people, who we were told wanted to be free of his terrorism.  Apparently we were wrong on all three counts. I don't remember any talk back then of molding the world to our liking with the blood and gold of our childrens children.

What makes you think that the Iraqis, in general, preferred Saddam Hussein's rule?  Even if they prefer it to American occupation, that doesn't mean they didn't hate Saddam.

"Molding the world to our liking"?  Who's talking about that?  Molding the world to eliminate the threat of terrorism, perhaps.

[BayouBlogger]

A Pentagon report listed 42 American soldiers "killed as a result of enemy action" between June and December 1945. In 1946, there were three.

Which report would that be?

General N.E. Berzarin, who was rumoured to have been waylaid in Charlottenburg during an incident in June 1945.

Repeating rumors does not constitute scholarship.  Who wrote Minutemen of the Third Reich?

Steve Rosen, Keith Weissman etc - and spies like Douglas Feith going back to others like Rafael Eitan, Ben-Menashe, Jonathan Pollard etc.

In the more egregious cases - e.g., Jonathan Pollard - there really is no question where his loyalty lies. Dual loyalties?  Not with Pollard, nor - I suspect - with his supporters at the JDL.  AIPAC should register as a foreign agent. Bunch of Fifth Columnists as far as I am concerned.

Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces during the first Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." (New York Times, 14 April 1983.)
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." (Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983; New York Times 14 April 1983.)

[The Rabbi]

In the more egregious cases - e.g., Jonathan Pollard - there really is no question where his loyalty lies. Dual loyalties?  Not with Pollard, nor - I suspect - with his supporters at the JDL.  AIPAC should register as a foreign agent. Bunch of Fifth Columnists as far as I am concerned.

Yeah.  Them Jews be trying to overthrow the gov't and establish the Zionist World Conspiracy.