The Last Centurion by John Ringo

[Tom Kratman]

I'm still in. About to be promoted to Sergeant First Class. Like you, I am infantry. Spent some time as a Drill Sergeant, spent a great deal of time giving the Madhi Army a hard time and finding IEDs. The brigade I was in still has the record for the longest deployment of a brigade sized element for the war on terror.

I'm in the National guard now, and my civilian job is spent doing systems engineering for the Border Patrol.

In my off time, I play in several bands, and released an album that saw some pretty great regional success. I have yet to set up a google alert so that I can tell people who don't like me how stupid they are, though. Perhaps you'd like to tell me how I can make that happen.

Are you controversial?  Is there money in  it for you to get free advertising?  Do you enjoy fighting?  Do you regularly get accused of being a racist or nazi by people who don't know anything about you?  Do you deal politely with infantry former drills who seem to have taken a major dislike to you? 

[Fitz]

Are you controversial?  Is there money in  it for you to get free advertising?  Do you enjoy fighting?  Do you regularly get accused of being a racist or nazi by people who don't know anything about you?  Do you deal politely with infantry former drills who seem to have taken a major dislike to you?  

The music was certainly controversial for a Soldier. There could be money in it, since it's still for sale.

I love fighting. Why else would I be in the infantry?

You were accused of liking nazis. Big deal. Here's a thought... if you regularly get accused by a variety of different people of these things, maybe the problem is you.

Yeah. Real polite to come in someone else's community and cause trouble.


An officer, and a gentleman, you are.

[dogmush]

Why bother?  If you haven't read it by now, not likely it's going to be your cup of tea.  Instead, I suggest you go to spacebattles.com and do a search for my name.  (They've got so many threads about me I'd be flattered about their obsession...if I were gay.)  I'm fairly sure - not absolutely, no, but fairly - that that's what Rev did.  Doesn't bother me, either, since their obsession actually helps me sell some small number of books, to include actually selling some books I'm giving away for free.  Hmmm...will this?  Let's see....brb... nope, no kick from this thread.  Sigh.  Sniff.  Whaa.

Curiosity. I think I got it in one of Baen's eBook bundles so not having read it by now is less an issue of it not being my cuppa, but rather it not climbing high enough up my to do list to ping my radar. Now it has.

On another note, I didn't call you names, nor did I imply anything about your writing other then to say I liked some of your Ringo collaborations. So why the sneering suggestion to hit whatever site.com when I said I was going to read your book? That is what you hope folks will do to them isn't it?  

[Tom Kratman]

The music was certainly controversial for a Soldier. There could be money in it, since it's still for sale.

I love fighting. Why else would I be in the infantry?

You were accused of liking nazis. Big deal. Here's a thought... if you regularly get accused by a variety of different people of these things, maybe the problem is you.

Yeah. Real polite to come in someone else's community and cause trouble.


An officer, and a gentleman, you are.

It is a big deal to me. 

And yes, I am a gentleman.  Are you?

[Fitz]

I gotta admit though, I thoroughly enjoyed the smackdown he gave to a reviewer calling herself "Great Pyr" on amazon.

But then again, I'm a misogynist and a sexist. Or at least, that's what my wife tells me before she locks me in the dungeon below the house.

[Fitz]

It is a big deal to me. 

And yes, I am a gentleman.  Are you?

Absolutely not. I'm an enlisted infantryman. If we were gentlemen, we'd never win a battle.

[Tom Kratman]

Curiosity. I think I got it in one of Baen's eBook bundles so not having read it by now is less an issue of it not being my cuppa, but rather it not climbing high enough up my to do list to ping my radar. Now it has.

On another note, I didn't call you names, nor did I imply anything about your writing other then to say I liked some of your Ringo collaborations. So why the sneering suggestion to hit whatever site.com when I said I was going to read your book? That is what you hope folks will do to them isn't it?  

Then read it.  Free country, after all.  I may have misread you, though the phrase, "see if it's that genocidy" is probably what keyed me to do so.

[Tom Kratman]

Then read it.  Free country, after all.  I may have misread you, though the phrase, "see if it's that genocidy" is probably what keyed me to do so.

I was an enlisted infantryman.  1974 to 1978.  I was still a gentleman, maybe a gentleman ranker, but a gentleman.

[Fitz]

I was an enlisted infantryman.  1974 to 1978.  I was still a gentleman, maybe a gentleman ranker, but a gentleman.

Maybe that's why you became an officer? 

[dogmush]

Then read it.  Free country, after all.  I may have misread you, though the phrase, "see if it's that genocidy" is probably what keyed me to do so.

Perhaps I was unclear. There is a review in this thread that says the book glorifies genocide. I wish to see if it does, and to what extent.   To "see if it's that genocide [as Rev's review says]"

[Fitz]

Perhaps I was unclear. There is a review in this thread that says the book glorifies genocide. I wish to see if it does, and to what extent.   To "see if it's that genocide [as Rev's review says]"

You weren't unclear.

You see, to our friend here, even the expression of a desire to confirm/deny someone else's review of his book is offensive.

[Tom Kratman]

Absolutely not. I'm an enlisted infantryman. If we were gentlemen, we'd never win a battle.

I have serious doubts Pyr actually read the book.  When s/h/it attacked as central to my position a proposition that that I, myself, attacked and debunked, it does leave open to question either s/h/it's integrity or s/h/it's reading ability and intelligence.  

I run into that quite a bit, so much so that, except in cases of personal attack - calling me a nazi, say - I generally just yawn and mutter, "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."  Pyr was a special case, though, and worth crapping on extensively.

[Tom Kratman]

Maybe that's why you became an officer? 

No, I enlisted out of Boston Latin intending to become an officer, but intending to learn some things before I did.

[Fitz]

I have serious doubts Pyr actually read the book.  When s/h/it attacked as central to my position a proposition that that I, myself, attacked and debunked, it does leave open to question either s/h/it's integrity or s/h/it's reading ability and intelligence.  

I run into that quite a bit, so much so that, except in cases of personal attack - calling me a nazi, say - I generally just yawn and mutter, "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."  Pyr was a special case, though, and worth crapping on extensively.

To your credit, it was a spectacular verbal beatdown. I am not being sarcastic at all when I say I enjoyed reading it.

[Tom Kratman]

Perhaps I was unclear. There is a review in this thread that says the book glorifies genocide. I wish to see if it does, and to what extent.   To "see if it's that genocide [as Rev's review says]"

That's one of the reasons why I suspect rev just went to sb and more or less cut and pasted.  I cannot think of an occasion in the book that has anything approaching genocide.  War crimes and reprisals there are, aplenty, but genocide I just can't recall.

[Tom Kratman]

You weren't unclear.

You see, to our friend here, even the expression of a desire to confirm/deny someone else's review of his book is offensive.

Nope.

[Fitz]

Nope.

Then what offended you about dogmush's post?

[Tom Kratman]

Then what offended you about dogmush's post?

Nothing.  After the comment on genocidy I figured he'd already assumed that rev's post was legit, rather than a cut and paste from a deliberate hack job on SB.  SO what would he have to gain by it?  And what would I have to gain by someone reading it from the presumption that said cut and paste hack job was legit?  My suggestion was sincere, possibly mistaken or derived from a wrong reading, but sincere.

[roo_ster]

What, exactly,  is wrong with conflating race and culture?  

Because one is based on shared biology and the other is based on shared practices, attitudes, & such as exhibited by groups of people.  Hardware vs software, if you will.

Many have so conflated in the past and you would have some good company.  As the Brits spread out into the world and studied every bit they found, "race" was used many times where we nowadays use the terms "culture," "nation," etc.

TK addressed it above pretty well, but there is a relatively simple description of race: and extended & interbred family.  I am not the first to use that definition.  It has the advantage of being based in biology and is real, concrete, and provable in this day & age of genetic testing(1).  If we don't want to use the word "race" for such a thing, we would have to invent a new word to describe the real, provable concept.  

Also, the origins of the words give hints.  Culture is one of those words the Normans brought along with them into Anglo-Saxon England.  It referred to cultivation, usually of crops.  IOW: actions/verbs.  Race had similar origins and referred to lineage, breeding, etc.  




(1) Relative to the old school way of cataloging external features.

[RevDisk]

Why bother?  If you haven't read it by now, not likely it's going to be your cup of tea.  Instead, I suggest you go to spacebattles.com and do a search for my name.  (They've got so many threads about me I'd be flattered about their obsession...if I were gay.)  I'm fairly sure - not absolutely, no, but fairly - that that's what Rev did.  Doesn't bother me, either, since their obsession actually helps me sell some small number of books, to include actually selling some books I'm giving away for free.  Hmmm...will this?  Let's see....brb... nope, no kick from this thread.  Sigh.  Sniff.  Whaa.

I read through that thread, yes. I also used :

http://www.baenebooks.com/10.1125/Baen/1416521453/1416521453.htm
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CarrerasLegions

 

The TvTropes was actually more useful than the SpaceBattles threads, as they tended to devolve quickly. But some of the references made me go back and hit certain high points. I specifically was impressed by the way your character thought little to nothing of the Space Panamanians (per TvTropes, SB disagrees and says its Space Mexicans, are you willing to settle that debate by telling us which?). Buying mortar ammo that was inaccurate and shrugging when it killed friendies. Buying the cheapest space armor, that was probably overall as bad as NO armor for the mobility limitations. Providing troops with disinformation on the quality of their tanks. Having Space Panamanians or Mexicans in motor boats dragging targets for live gunnery exercises. Intentionally NOT having Range Safety Officers during live fire exercises. Any of which shows an utter disregard for the soldiers under Space Kratman's command.

I'm slightly confused by this. You normally attribute what you see as positive characteristics to the character blatantly obviously based on yourself. Yet you make it seem like your character sees the space wogs as essentially subhuman? Is there a reason I'm missing?

My only shot in the dark is seeing utter disregard for one's troops as a way of "toughening them up". I've only seen that attitude from officers from third world countries, with near uniformly bad results. I have spent a significant amount of time training foreign soldiers. From "Better than the Average US Soldier" quality to "barb" quality. Even in a near barbarian level army, the troops tend NOT to be as dumb as the officers believe them to be, and very well know the officers are trying to get them killed while the officers tend to lounge about in much better, or safer conditions. So they slack, and put their own lives ahead of the unit. Unit cohesion tends to be bad, because the individual soldiers (or mercenaries in this case) are focused on their OWN lives as they know no one else is going to look after it. Focusing on team dynamics (slowly) got better results because they'd be more willing to take risks for the unit as a whole if they believed others would do the same, from added peer pressure, and the belief that others were watching the individual soldier's back.

Edit: Second question: Why set it all Sci-Fi instead of just doing an alt history/universe? Some of the Space names were... it seemed like you didn't even really care to come up with actually different names. It seemed like there was little science fiction, essentially just a thin cover in order to call it science fiction?

[Tom Kratman]

I read through that thread, yes. I also used :

http://www.baenebooks.com/10.1125/Baen/1416521453/1416521453.htm
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CarrerasLegions

 

The TvTropes was actually more useful than the SpaceBattles threads, as they tended to devolve quickly. But some of the references made me go back and hit certain high points. I specifically was impressed by the way your character thought little to nothing of the Space Panamanians (per TvTropes, SB disagrees and says its Space Mexicans, are you willing to settle that debate by telling us which?). Buying mortar ammo that was inaccurate and shrugging when it killed friendies. Buying the cheapest space armor, that was probably overall as bad as NO armor for the mobility limitations. Providing troops with disinformation on the quality of their tanks. Having Space Panamanians or Mexicans in motor boats dragging targets for live gunnery exercises. Intentionally NOT having Range Safety Officers during live fire exercises. Any of which shows an utter disregard for the soldiers under Space Kratman's command.

I'm slightly confused by this. You normally attribute what you see as positive characteristics to the character blatantly obviously based on yourself. Yet you make it seem like your character sees the space wogs as essentially subhuman? Is there a reason I'm missing?

My only shot in the dark is seeing utter disregard for one's troops as a way of "toughening them up". I've only seen that attitude from officers from third world countries, with near uniformly bad results. I have spent a significant amount of time training foreign soldiers. From "Better than the Average US Soldier" quality to "barb" quality. Even in a near barbarian level army, the troops tend NOT to be as dumb as the officers believe them to be, and very well know the officers are trying to get them killed while the officers tend to lounge about in much better, or safer conditions. So they slack, and put their own lives ahead of the unit. Unit cohesion tends to be bad, because the individual soldiers (or mercenaries in this case) are focused on their OWN lives as they know no one else is going to look after it. Focusing on team dynamics (slowly) got better results because they'd be more willing to take risks for the unit as a whole if they believed others would do the same, from added peer pressure, and the belief that others were watching the individual soldier's back.

People - and I use the term loosely - often assume that Carrera is me.  There are some points of similarity, eyes and good looking wife.  Hmmm...based on SB I am the only blue eyed guy in the world.  There are more points of dissimilarity.  Those dissimilarities are often quite deliberate, as I am one superstitious mo fo, and do not want what I did to him to happen to me.  Yes, really.  The big difference is that I am, at least mostly, sane while he is, at least mostly, not.  Part of this is, of course, that my family is entirely alive and his is entirely dead.  If you want to believe Carrera is a Marty Stu, go ahead.  I don't care and I couldn't do anything about it if I did care.  Once again, "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."

As for the training, the ammunition, the whatever.  I was a sergeant and a lieutenant in a unit where every battalion used more ammunition, four deuce and below, than the entire 82d Airborne.  I've run well over four hundred platoon equivalent live fires and never once given a safety brief in a safety brief format.  (Why?  Because they're useless CYA nonsense.  I did backbrief rehearsals, which work.)  We used to live fire, with no appreciable concessions to safety, on average about 13 times a month.  We got bad lots of ammunition.  We had short rounds.  People did get wounded and killed (never on a range for which I was responsible, but once on a range I had a piece of).  All of this in the US Army.  And it never deterred anybody in the 193d in the slightest.  The people who object to this I don't think really understand the history of the thing - for example the .5 percent of basic trainee deaths was both German Army in WW II and MY OSUT company in 74.  Yeah.  Really. - or understand training very well at all.

By the way, what do you think having a separate shadow chain of command does for safety?  In my experience, it just confuses the troops which is inherently UNsafe.

[Tom Kratman]

I read through that thread, yes. I also used :

http://www.baenebooks.com/10.1125/Baen/1416521453/1416521453.htm
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CarrerasLegions

 

Edit: Second question: Why set it all Sci-Fi instead of just doing an alt history/universe? Some of the Space names were... it seemed like you didn't even really care to come up with actually different names. It seemed like there was little science fiction, essentially just a thin cover in order to call it science fiction?

That's one of the problems you'll have when you use hit pieces to form your judgment.  Example: SB said somewhere - and TVTropes carried it over - that I used the same Chinese name for their colony as real, Earth-bound China: Zhong Guo.  It is, in fact, Ming Zhong Guo, New Middle Kingdom.   Of course SB is entirely correct, nobody ever names their colony for the mother country or area.  I did not grow up in New England.  Boston and Plymouth do not exist.  There are no such places as New York or New Jersey nor even New South Wales.  Ahem.

[RevDisk]

People - and I use the term loosely - often assume that Carrera is me.  There are some points of similarity, eyes and good looking wife.  Hmmm...based on SB I am the only blue eyed guy in the world.  There are more points of dissimilarity.  Those dissimilarities are often quite deliberate, as I am one superstitious mo fo, and do not want what I did to him to happen to me.  Yes, really.  The big difference is that I am, at least mostly, sane while he is, at least mostly, not.  Part of this is, of course, that my family is entirely alive and his is entirely dead.  If you want to believe Carrera is a Marty Stu, go ahead.  I don't care and I couldn't do anything about it if I did care.  Once again, "Gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."

You may not have intended the reader to make a Marty Stu connection, but virtually everyone else has.  Here's an example of a pretty good review that covers the highlights.
http://xodiac.fo.cx/rev/view.php?bookid=996

Most rational folks would see a mostly Marty Stu main character, and the rest of the book being essentially a commentary on how you think the War on Terror should be run.

Regardless of what you intended, it's
As for the training, the ammunition, the whatever.  I was a sergeant and a lieutenant in a unit where every battalion used more ammunition, four deuce and below, than the entire 82d Airborne.  I've run well over four hundred platoon equivalent live fires and never once given a safety brief in a safety brief format.  (Why?  Because they're useless CYA nonsense.  I did backbrief rehearsals, which work.)  We used to live fire, with no appreciable concessions to safety, on average about 13 times a month.  We got bad lots of ammunition.  We had short rounds.  People did get wounded and killed (never on a range for which I was responsible, but once on a range I had a piece of).  All of this in the US Army.  And it never deterred anybody in the 193d in the slightest.  The people who object to this I don't think really understand the history of the thing - for example the .5 percent of basic trainee deaths was both German Army in WW II and MY OSUT company in 74.  Yeah.  Really. - or understand training very well at all.

By the way, what do you think having a separate shadow chain of command does for safety?  In my experience, it just confuses the troops which is inherently UNsafe.

I gather your live fire exercises weren't green third world troops, still learning their systems and equipment? There's a mild difference between trained soldiers that have been around the block a few times and green recruits. I was generally taught crawl, walk, run. Throwing "newbies" into the run stage rarely worked out as well as expected.

I never considered RSO's as a "shadow chain of command", but extra set of eyes that has nothing else on their plate but ensure no one was about to die unnecessarily. Calling RSO's a shadow chain of command is kinda insane at best. I'm quite sure there are bad RSO's that "confuse" troops and make things unsafe, they obviously need either training or a different slot. The ROLE of RSO should be to facilitate training while improving.

[Pharmacology]

Because one is based on shared biology and the other is based on shared practices, attitudes, & such as exhibited by groups of people.  Hardware vs software, if you will.
Many have so conflated in the past and you would have some good company.  As the Brits spread out into the world and studied every bit they found, "race" was used many times where we nowadays use the terms "culture," "nation," etc.
TK addressed it above pretty well, but there is a relatively simple description of race: and extended & interbred family.  I am not the first to use that definition.  It has the advantage of being based in biology and is real, concrete, and provable in this day & age of genetic testing(1).  If we don't want to use the word "race" for such a thing, we would have to invent a new word to describe the real, provable concept.  
Also, the origins of the words give hints.  Culture is one of those words the Normans brought along with them into Anglo-Saxon England.  It referred to cultivation, usually of crops.  IOW: actions/verbs.  Race had similar origins and referred to lineage, breeding, etc.  
(1) Relative to the old school way of cataloging external features.

Again, you're relying on the assumption that it's something as simple as a few phenotypes.

There are other words.  Take ethnicity, for example.
Those cheek swab tests, by the way, are mostly useless, and group people by geographical regions.  If you can find five geneticists who take them seriously, I'll be surprised.

I agree with the other posts in this thread.   Some people have developed a knee jerk reaction to hearing the word "racism."  They'll immediately clamor to defend the accused racist, and attempt to convince everyone that no racism took place.   I'm not really sure why. 

[Tom Kratman]

You may not have intended the reader to make a Marty Stu connection, but virtually everyone else has.  Here's an example of a pretty good review that covers the highlights.
http://xodiac.fo.cx/rev/view.php?bookid=996

Most rational folks would see a mostly Marty Stu main character, and the rest of the book being essentially a commentary on how you think the War on Terror should be run.


I gather your live fire exercises weren't green third world troops, still learning their systems and equipment? There's a mild difference between trained soldiers that have been around the block a few times and green recruits. I was generally taught crawl, walk, run. Throwing "newbies" into the run stage rarely worked out as well as expected.

I never considered RSO's as a "shadow chain of command", but extra set of eyes that has nothing else on their plate but ensure no one was about to die unnecessarily. Calling RSO's a shadow chain of command is kinda insane at best. I'm quite sure there are bad RSO's that "confuse" troops and make things unsafe, they obviously need either training or a different slot. The ROLE of RSO should be to facilitate training while improving.

They can do that.  Nothing to be done about it.  And if they want to do that, meh,  No skin off my underendowment.  

Where did you see that they were still learning their equipment?  Oh, that's right, you didn't because, instead of reading the book you decided to rely on heavily redacted hit pieces (though I liked Doug's review, at least, told him so, and advertised his site on my conference on Baen's Bar). 

You can consider it what you like. What I consider it is immoral, unethical, cowardly putting up of mere forms, entirely for purposes of CYA, while a) increasing the danger for the troops, mistraining the troops, and c) undermining their confidence in their own chain of command, hence further mistraining the entire unit.  I do, in fact, know of people killed because there was a second, shadow chain of command.  2/34 Infantry, circa 1983, Fort Stewart. In effect, when you make them responsible they will take responsibility.  They will give orders.  They will have the troops guessing who the hell they're supposed to listen to.  If you haven't seen that then you haven't been paying attention.

Just out of curiosity, what's your MOS, your units, and your general level of experience?  Who knows, it may, in theory, exceed mine.