Cops and ticketing quotas

[Tallpine]

On a lot of interstates if you drive the speed limit you will be passed by 90 percent of the cars on the road.  Doesn't that imply that the limit is too low when the "societal norm" is to break the law?

On I-25 through Wyoming, I set the cruise on the posted 75.  Not much traffic to begin with, but I pass more vehicles than pass me, by about 80%.  Once you get past Cheyenne into Califorado, about 90 percent of the vehicles pass me, still doing the posted speed.  If you try to do the speed limit on 25 through Denver, you will cause a huge fricking pile-up.  Speed varies between nothing in the traffic jams, up to 80+++ mph when traffic is moving.  Best thing is to stay in a middle lane and never look at your speed.

Having driveways intersect state highways here is the rule, rather than the exception.  

Having driveways intersect state highways here on hill crests or blind curves is also the rule.

Then there are the tractors with manure spreaders, and Amish buggies all sharing the highway with you...

All of the 2-lane hiways in Montana are like that, but the speed limit is 70.  

[charby]

On I-25 through Wyoming, I set the cruise on the posted 75.  Not much traffic to begin with, but I pass more vehicles than pass me, by about 80%.  Once you get past Cheyenne into Califorado, about 90 percent of the vehicles pass me, still doing the posted speed.  If you try to do the speed limit on 25 through Denver, you will cause a huge fricking pile-up.  Speed varies between nothing in the traffic jams, up to 80+++ mph when traffic is moving.  Best thing is to stay in a middle lane and never look at your speed.
All of the 2-lane hiways in Montana are like that, but the speed limit is 70.  

A lot less people in Montana, I've driven miles on some of the state highways and never see a car.

I've noticed that about WY also when I hunt out there, I'll drive speed limit or maybe 5 over and I pass a lot of vehicles, same with Western Nebraska once I pass Lincoln.

SD on I-90, drive 5 over and you still get passed by over half the traffic.

[brimic]

I agree unless the embargo* on min speed was lifted for summer haying equipment, that person should have taken an alternate route.

*Many agricultural states will lift weigh embargos during peak harvest season on roads, bridge weight limits are still enforced though.

A bridge weight limit is about the only thing that makes sense in this case. The only way onto the freeway would have been with a ramp, as there is an unbroken fence that runs along the freeway on both sides.

[charby]

A bridge weight limit is about the only thing that makes sense in this case. The only way onto the freeway would have been with a ramp, as there is an unbroken fence that runs along the freeway on both sides.

That tractor and big square bailer is light enough for most rural bridges, I'm calling lazy selfish tractor driver. :)

[AZRedhawk44]

A bridge weight limit is about the only thing that makes sense in this case. The only way onto the freeway would have been with a ramp, as there is an unbroken fence that runs along the freeway on both sides.

Reminder to keep some snips in the truck's emergency box.

[brimic]

 

Reminder to keep some snips in the truck's emergency box.

Do they have freeway ramp gates down by you too?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

That tractor and big square bailer is light enough for most rural bridges, I'm calling lazy selfish tractor driver. :)

do they cut and bail the roadside ditches?  they do in minn

[AZRedhawk44]

Only places I saw those was in Minnesota and the Dakotas, for controlling access to freeways during blizzards... and places like Chicago and Seattle where they have bi-directional express lanes that switch traffic flow directions based on rush hour needs.

We don't have those around here.

But I hate the trapped feeling when on an interstate and it turns into a parking lot, and all that keeps you there is a stoopid little fence separating you from a farm road or frontage road.

I'm not saying I'd use them routinely... that's why they'd be in the emergency box.  For emergencies.

I remember sitting in traffic outside of Baton Rouge for about 2 hours.  Took me 2 hours to go maybe 20-25 miles to New Orleans.  It was damned hot, and damned muggy, and I was on my bike in full gear, and I had no air flow.  There was a fence next to I-10 (this was just west of the Mississippi crossing there) and I was SOOO tempted to whip out my skeletool and cut the fence, and get on the frontage road next to the highway.  If it were an emergency, I would have.

[charby]

Only places I saw those was in Minnesota and the Dakotas, for controlling access to freeways during blizzards... and places like Chicago and Seattle where they have bi-directional express lanes that switch traffic flow directions based on rush hour needs.

We don't have those around here.

But I hate the trapped feeling when on an interstate and it turns into a parking lot, and all that keeps you there is a stoopid little fence separating you from a farm road or frontage road.

I'm not saying I'd use them routinely... that's why they'd be in the emergency box.  For emergencies.

I remember sitting in traffic outside of Baton Rouge for about 2 hours.  Took me 2 hours to go maybe 20-25 miles to New Orleans.  It was damned hot, and damned muggy, and I was on my bike in full gear, and I had no air flow.  There was a fence next to I-10 (this was just west of the Mississippi crossing there) and I was SOOO tempted to whip out my skeletool and cut the fence, and get on the frontage road next to the highway.  If it were an emergency, I would have.

Just make sure there are isn't any livestock on the other side of the fence or you will be creating an emergency for someone else.

[charby]

do they cut and bail the roadside ditches?  they do in minn

They do the same in Iowa, but only in drought emergencies and not on Interstate highways.

[Balog]

And gay marriage has a correlation with speeding?

It was addressing your point re "social norms" only.

And I want to live in a community too, but one where norms are enforced socially, not by men with guns.

[charby]

It was addressing your point re "social norms" only.

And I want to live in a community too, but one where norms are enforced socially, not by men with guns.

What about folks who don't want to follow the social norms, perhaps them not following norms causes harm to those who do?

[AZRedhawk44]

What about folks who don't want to follow the social norms, perhaps them not following norms causes harm to those who do?

Depends on what you call harm.

A pair of gay guys living next door to a Southern Baptist... the SB is causing himself all the "emotional harm" of that.  The gay guys aren't doing anything to him.

If the gay guys are lobbing boulders through his roof with a trebuchet, that would be actual harm.

[Balog]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

So because some people are stupid and irresponsible, you want to punish everyone else? Hmmm, where have I heard that before...

[brimic]

We don't have those around here.

But I hate the trapped feeling when on an interstate and it turns into a parking lot, and all that keeps you there is a stoopid little fence separating you from a farm road or frontage road.

 I only brought it up because of the weirdness involved with the gates.
They went up about 3 years ago, and I was about the only person to notice them, when I pointed them out to other people, they were like "WTF?"
The paper ran an article about how they were for high speed rail crossings, which makes almost no sense.
There were articles about them on sites like Dailypaul and prisonplanet.
They're real purpose is to shut down freeways in odd events like blizzards or Presidential visits.

[brimic]

What about folks who don't want to follow the social norms, perhaps them not following norms causes harm to those who do?

I've been known to run out to the curb, shaking my fist and screaming at motorists who choose not to 'conform' to the 'societal norm' of the speed limit on the street I live on. My 'statism' might be brought on by the fact that people are easily doing 45 in a 25 zone, near where a lot of kids play.

[Balog]

What about folks who don't want to follow the social norms, perhaps them not following norms causes harm to those who do?

Given actual traffic patterns I'd say the "social norm" is to go about 10-20mph over the interstate speed limit. I guess it's the cops who are breaking social norms and causing harm now, huh?

Also, if you interpret freedom as "the ability to do anything that your local social group finds normal and acceptable" then... I honestly don't even know what to say. I don't want to live in that world. In the group I grew up in a lot of things I've done (enlisting, marrying a Mexican, leaving my parent's religion etc) are "outside of the social norms" but I certainly don't want the .gov to use force to stop me from doing them.

Speaking of using .gov to enforce social norms, you are logically consistent in that right? So whatever the local social norms are, it's totally cool for the cops to use force to compel you to obey that right? Going to church every Sunday. Local social norm. Blacks use a different water fountain, eat at different restaraunts, attend different schools. Local social norm. Poor kids don't date the children of the wealthy, Local social norm.

[AZRedhawk44]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

Heavy trucks get better fuel efficiency at lower speed.  Economy will dictate they find a happy medium between speed and fuel cost.  They'll probably even out around 70mph.

There aren't a lot of bumps on the interstate.  Only car parts I see are blown tires from 18 wheelers.  Which gets back to point #1.

I dunno about you, but when I was 16 I was afraid of interstate speed for all of about a week.  Same thing happened when I started riding a motorcycle at 34.  I was afraid of the highway and the 60mph threshold for about a week.

Little old lady already causes drama doing 50mph on a 75mph interstate.  Maybe she'll be too terrified of the highway and stay off altogether if everyone is doing 90 instead?  That's a good thing, IMO.  If you can't confidently handle the vehicle, then don't drive it.

[Tallpine]

It's pretty obvious that whatever mission statement might be sitting somewhere in a file drawer, the primary goal of the county sherrif is to write tickets on the busiest highway.

This means that they pretty much ignore everything else unless they can't avoid it.  I guess the old adage "crime doesn't pay" applies to the cops, too. 

[charby]

Given actual traffic patterns I'd say the "social norm" is to go about 10-20mph over the interstate speed limit. I guess it's the cops who are breaking social norms and causing harm now, huh?

Also, if you interpret freedom as "the ability to do anything that your local social group finds normal and acceptable" then... I honestly don't even know what to say. I don't want to live in that world. In the group I grew up in a lot of things I've done (enlisting, marrying a Mexican, leaving my parent's religion etc) are "outside of the social norms" but I certainly don't want the .gov to use force to stop me from doing them.

Speaking of using .gov to enforce social norms, you are logically consistent in that right? So whatever the local social norms are, it's totally cool for the cops to use force to compel you to obey that right? Going to church every Sunday. Local social norm. Blacks use a different water fountain, eat at different restaraunts, attend different schools. Local social norm. Poor kids don't date the children of the wealthy, Local social norm.

I think you are missing the point or you are strawmanning to avoid answering directly.

Also the 10-20 over the speed limit on interstates is not everywhere, see what Tallpine posted about WY and what I posted about NE.

[fifth_column]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

Hell yes I want higher speed limits.  And I want incompetent drivers to stay in the right lane where they belong, and where the law states they should stay.  And I want those "Slower traffic keep right" signs to have "THIS MEANS YOU!!!" added to them.  And I want driving competency tests to be administered every 10 years or so.  Speed doesn't kill, bad driving does.

[Balog]

I think you are missing the point or you are strawmanning to avoid answering directly.

Also the 10-20 over the speed limit on interstates is not everywhere, see what Tallpine posted about WY and what I posted about NE.

You said you want the .gov to use force to make me obey local social norms. I'm pointing out how wrong that is. Your counter argument, as far as I can tell, is that you only want to do that for social norms you personally approve of. You try to cloak that in behind the rubric of "violating social norms causes harm" but as others have pointed out that is false.

So please, tell me what point I'm missing, because it certainly isn't one you've made in this thread.

[charby]

You said you want the .gov to use force to make me obey local social norms. I'm pointing out how wrong that is. Your counter argument, as far as I can tell, is that you only want to do that for social norms you personally approve of. You try to cloak that in behind the rubric of "violating social norms causes harm" but as others have pointed out that is false.

So please, tell me what point I'm missing, because it certainly isn't one you've made in this thread.

You used examples that are protected from being made illegal due to various items found in the Bill of Rights. You are choosing to nitpick which social norms to strawman about.

[drewtam]

I think you are missing the point or you are strawmanning to avoid answering directly.

Also the 10-20 over the speed limit on interstates is not everywhere, see what Tallpine posted about WY and what I posted about NE.

In the links I provided, there is the idea of the 85th percentile. Traffic engineers have recommended for a long time that speed limits should be set according at the point where 85% of the people obey it.

Setting the speed lower, doesn't change how people drive. They'll still drive what they feel is safe.

Setting the speed higher, doesn't change how people drive. They'll still drive what they feel is safe.

[Balog]

You used examples that are protected from being made illegal due to various items found in the Bill of Rights. You are choosing to nitpick which social norms to strawman about.

But they haven't always been illegal. Segregation was a social norm enforced by law for many years.

So please, spell out for me which "social norms" you're cool with compelling via force, and which are not.