Pondering a big bore pistol for hiking

[AZRedhawk44]

So how many tenths of a second do you save, vs. you know, actually aiming?

Close to a full second, with a lightweight .45.

My dog can cover a lot of ground in a second.  It can be the difference between getting a shot off at all, or not.  Add in the speed a coyote or javelina can bring to the equation running to meet him, and we're talking about a 50-75 foot separation versus a merged ball of flesh, teeth and tusks.

I'm pretty bad at it with a .44.  It's been a couple years since I've worked seriously at it with that gun, though.  And that's the point I'm trying to make.  The .44 takes a lot of work to maintain defensive pistol proficiency. 

[Balog]

I'm no expert on pistols and don't claim to be so I can't meaningfully contribute to a debate on the efficacy of the technique in question.  But Rex Applegate as well as others was teaching the alternative aiming method of "point shooting" back in WWII so it's hardly new or solely the balliwick of gun forum cranks. I'd say the prrof is in the pudding. If an individual can safely and reliably put their shots where they intend to at limited range via point shooting more power to them.

[charby]

Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.

Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.

[Tallpine]

Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.

Now it's just a five-shooter, huh?



 

[Ben]

The "hip shooting" technique was taught in a pistol class I took. The emphasis was not on using it for speed shooting, but moreso using it as a "fallback" I guess, if you find yourself in a position where an attacker popped out, or approached before you saw them, to within arms length and there was a chance of having your weapon taken away. We pulled our pistols with our shooting arms firmly tucked into our bodies. I was actually surprised at how well I grouped. Much better than I thought I would.

[Brad Johnson]

Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.

Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.

I could see that happening to a couple friends of mine.  They like heavy bullets, hard crimps, and deep seating depths, and they think the "Ruger Blackhawk/Redhawk ONLY!!!" max powder charge makes a starting place.

Brad

[Gewehr98]

To each their own.

I've attended more than a few gun classes, including Mas Ayoob's LFI-I and LFI-II.  Front Sight - Press.

If that haphazard shooting-from-the-hip, ala' Ed McGivern, and the one second saved is what un-cooks you or your dog's bacon, I'd recommend re-evaluating your risk management strategy out there in snakeland.

Is your dog one second too close to Petey the Snake?  Is he one second too far away from you?  

I carry a 5-shot 696 as my Back to Nature Gun.  

Personally, I want each of those 5 fat .44 Special rounds to go exactly where I want them to, because when that cylinder's empty, I have to take time to produce a speedloader with 5 more rounds, etc.

I'll aim unless I'm not able to do so.  That would mean Mr. Bear has either closed the distance, or has me by some part of the anatomy, in which case I'm screwing the muzzle into his eyebulb, etc.  

Exhibition shooting is for - exhibition.  

[AZRedhawk44]

G98, are you familiar with the Japanese sword art called Iaido?  And its predecessor, Iaijutsu?

It's the art of drawing and cutting with the same motion.  It's highly stylized and technical, like most Japanese martial arts.  When practicing, one does so with a strict adherence to form and balance and technique.  Not speed, though that comes later.

It's samurai hip-shooting, formalized into schools of study.

And the intent of it is to make successful deployment of the sword from the scabbard a reflexive motion... even if the technique called for is not one of the rigidly defined forms of the iaido school but an improvisation created by the student to meet the situation at hand.

A similar parallel can be drawn to High Power service rifle.  Highly stylized and ritualized.  However, the zen of the sight picture and body melding with the rifle and trigger application can have combat applicability.

There's no formal school to practice wilderness big bore defensive handgun.  By my own standards, the best I can responsibly carry for my own situation, adhering to my standards I apply, is a hot hardcast .45acp.  A component of my standards is a demand that I be able to shoot accurately from the draw utilizing point-shooting technique.

I'm cautioning against lowering your proficiency standards that you might ordinarily have for urban carry, when seeking a wilderness carry firearm.

[charby]

[RevDisk]

AZ, I can see your point. Except the 9mm Sigs I carry are good enough for 99% of situations i am likely to encounter. I tend to train for the likely stuff, not the unlikely. If a criminal was wearing body armor, I'd face a bit more difficulty as I was trained for center of mass shooting with pistols. (Oddly enough, top of sternum for rifles.)  Edge cases are edge cases.

Just looking to expand my options.

[Balog]

I doubt Colonel Applegate would agree with the classification of his methods as "haphazard shooting from the hip."   If we're going off of argument from authority, I'll take the advice of the guy tasked with training the OSS over the guy who can name drop a few classes.

Seriously though, if you consistently hit what you're aiming at I don't see the issue with what aiming technique you use.

[roo_ster]

Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.

Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.

THAT was my fear, when working with Bullseye. 

To each their own.

I've attended more than a few gun classes, including Mas Ayoob's LFI-I and LFI-II.  Front Sight - Press.

If that haphazard shooting-from-the-hip, ala' Ed McGivern, and the one second saved is what un-cooks you or your dog's bacon, I'd recommend re-evaluating your risk management strategy out there in snakeland.

Is your dog one second too close to Petey the Snake?  Is he one second too far away from you? 

I carry a 5-shot 696 as my Back to Nature Gun. 

Personally, I want each of those 5 fat .44 Special rounds to go exactly where I want them to, because when that cylinder's empty, I have to take time to produce a speedloader with 5 more rounds, etc.

I'll aim unless I'm not able to do so.  That would mean Mr. Bear has either closed the distance, or has me by some part of the anatomy, in which case I'm screwing the muzzle into his eyebulb, etc. 

Exhibition shooting is for - exhibition. 

There are lots of point-shooting cranks.  Read plenty on THR back in the day.Thing is, it does work, despite the several cranks who used to haunt THR.  10 yards COM on a human sihlouette, one session at the range.  Farther, with more practice and the right weapon(1).  But, the farther the target, (usually) the more time you have, so it makes going to the irons a better option.

Why Use It?
1. Speed.  Faster than aimed fire, even a flash sight picture.
2. Opponent very close or closing fast into hand-to-hand range.  Keeping your gun by your hip keeps the opponent's hands off it.
3. Low-light, where iron sights are not so useful.  No tritium inserts?  No big whoop.  As long as there is light source enough to ID the target.
4. Shooting on the move.

Why Not Use It?
1. Whenever you have the time for good, aimed fire.

Less Time/Distance --> More Time/Distance
1. Draw and index fire from hip.
2. Draw and bring weapon up to bottom of eyesight and fire when it gets there, without seeking out sights, just the top of the weapon.
3. Flash front sight picture on target COM.
4. Clean sight picture on target COM.

It is not a replacement for, but an addition to good, aimed fire.





(1) Main reason I keep my AMT .45ACP DAO Backup is that I point-shoot it better than any other handgun I own.  Good thing, since it came from the factory with no sights.  Same thing with my Kel-Tec P32.  And no, a groove or two spots of paint do not a sight make.

[charby]

THAT was my fear, when working with Bullseye. 

But I really like your method you described earlier.

[roo_ster]

But I really like your method you described earlier.

Not my original idea, just one I happily imitated. 

G98:

Which hand tool was that, again? 

[Gewehr98]

Rooster, Huntington Compac Press

Re: Hip Shooting - I'm not calling an abomination in the way of the One True Sword, I just don't see any logical value in it, especially when you're trying to save one's posterior.

Granted, it appears AZRH44 has acquired the skills necessary to be a bona-fide Gun Ninja, and for that I'm quite envious.  He is a highly-trained professional, and per the standard TV disclaimer, I wouldn't recommend other folks try that at home.

Rex Applegate, really?  Times and techniques change, usually for the better.  Revolvers used to be fired one-handed, it was only proper.  Folks used to shoot long-range Creedmoor matches on their backs, with rifles perched on their feet.

Here's what I'm getting at - firearms technology and training has improved tremendously since one held a slow match to the touch hole of a handgonne and hoped for the best.

Barrels are now rifled. Ammo quality is very consistent now. Sights are either adjustable, or can be regulated to bring the Point of Impact into the same general Zip Code as the Point of Aim. The systems are quite reliable.

In a rough and tumble situation where everybody agrees that Shot Placement rules supreme, why wouldn't a person take advantage of the accuracy feature built into the gun as it's pressed into service? 

In my IPSC days, when fractions of seconds counted, we still aimed.  Same for other competitions and games that simulate combat vs. the clock - we aim.  I'd continue aiming unless, as stated earlier, Mr. Bear had closed the distance and I was about to become scat. 

I watch Miculek rip off A-Zone hits with his wheelgun, and by gawd he's using the sights.  His times would shame us mere mortals, and I'd be really curious to see if he'd revert to point shooting in a life-threatening pinch.

It just doesn't make sense to me.  It reminds me of when I used to moonlight in a sporting goods store.  I had people come and ask me which hunting/survival knife was balanced best for throwing.   

[Matthew Carberry]

Chris,

I don't see the discussion in terms of "use -less- gun in the woods" than you would "on the street".

Instead it is "don't treat 2-300 pound thin-skinned predators like eastern black bears and cougars (or wolves and coyotes) like they are objectively harder to reach the vitals of than a 200-300 pound thin-skinned man."

Back East there is simply no -need- for a real big bore to reliably stop -any- of their 4-legged threats.

A proper bullet, heavy for caliber and designed to maintain its weight while penetrating deeply, is sufficient in any "major" handgun caliber (9mm and up, though I wouldn't recommend 9mm in favor of a larger caliber in the same platform if you had any choice).

That those proper bullets might be "specialty" is unimportant as you aren't going to be shooting a bunch of them, just enough to check for reliable functioning in your existing gun and provide some reloads.

That realistic assessment of actual need allows you to carry the very same gun, for which you already have accessories and with which you have already developed the proper muscle memory to draw and hit quickly under pressure due to your "people shooting" training, instead of dropping a bundle on a whole new gun and accessories you will rarely use.

[AZRedhawk44]

In a rough and tumble situation where everybody agrees that Shot Placement rules supreme, why wouldn't a person take advantage of the accuracy feature built into the gun as it's pressed into service?

Because you have about 1.25 seconds until two separate bodies become one tangled body.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away will still mean you didn't shoot your own dog.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away while your dog is still 50-75 feet away means you didn't shoot your own dog.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away still puts a very loud shot out there that will distract both creatures.
Because you historically have about a 50% chance of hitting with that first shot because you practiced it a lot.
Because I can.  And you could too.  It's not that hard.  It's only slightly harder than berating someone else who can do it.

In my IPSC days, when fractions of seconds counted, we still aimed.  Same for other competitions and games that simulate combat vs. the clock - we aim.  I'd continue aiming unless, as stated earlier, Mr. Bear had closed the distance and I was about to become scat.  

That's because the competitive assumption in IPSC is:
1. Misses suck.  They mean you have to reload sooner.  They mean you have to re-engage the target again.
2. Six well-aimed shots with a 90% hit rate sent in 6 seconds trumps 6 point-shot shots with a 40% hit rate sent in 4 seconds.  

Neither of those items hold true for me in the middle of nowhere in the Superstitions.  Misses have a slight benefit by at least making noise and scaring either my dog or the other creature, and when my shot clock essentially stops at 1.2 seconds, I either get my first drawn point-shot, or nothing.

I got 4 shots off on that snake because my dog pulled up short after shot #1.

Your IPSC shot clock does not stop at 1.2 seconds.

I watch Miculek rip off A-Zone hits with his wheelgun, and by gawd he's using the sights.  His times would shame us mere mortals, and I'd be really curious to see if he'd revert to point shooting in a life-threatening pinch.

Miculek has such wonderful natural point of aim reference with his body it wouldn't surprise me if he could pull off the same thing with sights once, then blindfolded a second time.  Lots of shooters have similar NPOA reference with handguns.  Miculek may be confirming with sights, but he's punching out by rote muscle memory for a target X-distance away straight in front of his stance.  I figure he's got it down so pat, that he's doing a minimalist front sight check as he's punching out... which is what I start to do on my second shot.  Not that I'm claiming to be Miculek or any facsimile anywhere within that range.  More in line with what Roo_ster mentions with a flash front sight check.

Miculek is the embodiment of a modernized Iaido martial artist, transitioned from sword to pistol.

[Jamisjockey]

You still have to aim with snakeshot.

[Boomhauer]

I glued a hair curler to the top of my pistol and glued a piece of corner molding to the side of it for point shooting help...

http://pointshooting.com/1aimaid.htm The owner of this site likes to troll gun forums....

[charby]

Chris,

I don't see the discussion in terms of "use -less- gun in the woods" than you would "on the street".

Instead it is "don't treat 2-300 pound thin-skinned predators like eastern black bears and cougars (or wolves and coyotes) like they are objectively harder to reach the vitals of than a 200-300 pound thin-skinned man."

Back East there is simply no -need- for a real big bore to reliably stop -any- of their 4-legged threats.

A proper bullet, heavy for caliber and designed to maintain its weight while penetrating deeply, is sufficient in any "major" handgun caliber (9mm and up, though I wouldn't recommend 9mm in favor of a larger caliber in the same platform if you had any choice).

That those proper bullets might be "specialty" is unimportant as you aren't going to be shooting a bunch of them, just enough to check for reliable functioning in your existing gun and provide some reloads.

That realistic assessment of actual need allows you to carry the very same gun, for which you already have accessories and with which you have already developed the proper muscle memory to draw and hit quickly under pressure due to your "people shooting" training, instead of dropping a bundle on a whole new gun and accessories you will rarely use.

I disagree black bears are way tougher then people give them credit for. They will absorb several not so well placed shots to the body from high powered rifles and still wipe their ass with your scalp.

[charby]

Close to a full second, with a lightweight .45.

My dog can cover a lot of ground in a second.  It can be the difference between getting a shot off at all, or not.  Add in the speed a coyote or javelina can bring to the equation running to meet him, and we're talking about a 50-75 foot separation versus a merged ball of flesh, teeth and tusks.

I'm pretty bad at it with a .44.  It's been a couple years since I've worked seriously at it with that gun, though.  And that's the point I'm trying to make.  The .44 takes a lot of work to maintain defensive pistol proficiency. 

Maybe you need to work on dog training instead trick shooting.

[Matthew Carberry]

I disagree black bears are way tougher then people give them credit for. They will absorb several not so well placed shots to the body from high powered rifles and still wipe their ass with your scalp.

So will a raccoon, or a poodle.

To stop any animal you have to get bullets into its brain, heart, or break bones. As long as the bullet will accomplish that you are done as far as projectile goes. The next requirement is on the shooter, to make sure those rounds are well-placed.

Assuming they have a bullet that will penetrate the comparatively light bones and thin skin of a black bear and rach the vitals the person drawing the same gun they usually carry, from the same holster they usually carry it in, looking at the same sight picture they can see with their eyes closed will -always- be able to put more effective well-placed rounds into that target faster than than they can out of an unfamiliar "bigger" gun out of an unfamiliar holster that they only carry a few times a year but which still will be ineffective if they miss.

[charby]

So will a raccoon, or a poodle.

To stop any animal you have to get bullets into its brain, heart, or break bones. As long as the bullet will accomplish that you are done as far as projectile goes. The next requirement is on the shooter, to make sure those rounds are well-placed.

Assuming they have a bullet that will penetrate the comparatively light bones and thin skin of a black bear and rach the vitals the person drawing the same gun they usually carry, from the same holster they usually carry it in, looking at the same sight picture they can see with their eyes closed will -always- be able to put more effective well-placed rounds into that target faster than than they can out of an unfamiliar "bigger" gun out of an unfamiliar holster that they only carry a few times a year but which still will be ineffective if they miss.

How many people are really that familiar with their normal carry piece. One of the reasons I haven't shot a deer (one the 1st shot) yet with a handgun is that its way easier by muscle memory for me to raise up a long gun then to draw from a holster.

I've shot way more rounds with a handgun via a drawing from a holster then I ever have with a long gun. I used to shoot steel every week, sometimes twice, all via timer, draw and fire from the holster. One would think it would be easier for me to draw the fire from a holster then to shoulder a rifle or shotgun.

Also if someone was going to carry a 44 mag into the woods that would have at least shot it enough to be familiar with it. Well one would hope.

I don't disagree with shot placement at all.

Sometime drink several cups of coffee, do some physical activity that raises your normal heartbeat by double for several minutes, do not slow down and then try to hit a paper plate at 21 feet with your familiar gun.

[Matthew Carberry]

How many people are really that familiar with their normal carry piece. One of the reasons I haven't shot a deer (one the 1st shot) yet with a handgun is that its way easier by muscle memory for me to raise up a long gun then to draw from a holster.

Also if someone was going to carry a 44 mag into the woods that would have at least shot it enough to be familiar with it. Well one would hope.

I don't disagree with shot placement at all.

Sometime drink several cups of coffee, do some physical activity that raises your normal heartbeat by double for several minutes, do not slow down and then try to hit a paper plate at 21 feet with your familiar gun.

I do stress drills all the time and you are still making my point for me.

If a person isn't the type to practice with the gun they carry everyday they will be hopeless with a one-off.

When you hunt you are usually at a longer range trying for a humane single shot kill from a good angle, defendive shooting is draw-flash aim- fire until it stops or its on top of you and you won't have a rifle if you've chosen the pistol for defense.Totally different dynamic except for stress being involved.

[charby]

I do stress drills all the time and you are still making my point for me.

If a person isn't the type to practice with the gun they carry everyday they will be hopeless with a one-off.

When you hunt you are usually at a longer range trying for a humane single shot kill from a good angle, defendive shooting is draw-flash aim- fire until it stops or its on top of you and you won't have a rifle if you've chosen the pistol for defense.Totally different dynamic except for stress being involved.

Most of the large mammals I have killed have been at 30 yards or less. Easily within handgun range with practice. Only really long distance kills I have had have been out in the western states. Most of the timber I hunt you can can't get a clean shot off farther than that because of the thick brush. I have shot a few whitetail deer at 150-200 yards with my MZL or slug gun, but those have been really rare opportunities for me.

You are saying use the gun you are comfortable withI can't disagree with that in practice. I'm saying use enough gun (and be proficient with it) Eastern US black bears are not as big as Alaskan black bears but they are fat and well fed, fat bears don't bleed out very well, dense fat can cause 9mm hollow points to expand before they reach vitals, 9mm fmj may not penetrate heavy bone, such as the skull.

I've had 250g MZL bullets explode hitting bone in a deer, this really pissed me off two years ago when I lost a really nice B&C buck because the bullet failed to break/penetrate the front shoulder. I found this out the following year when I shot a button buck in the chest and the bullet exploded on the ribs and just knocked the deer down, I ended up killing the deer with my knife because I didn't reload the MZL, very stupid on my part because it could of kicked the *expletive deleted*it out of me and cut me bad with its hooves. I have also switched from those bullets to Barnes solid coppers.