Author Topic: I got bounced out of a church today  (Read 24110 times)

seeker_two

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2013, 11:20:42 PM »
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Hawkmoon

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #76 on: October 06, 2013, 11:31:36 PM »
Despite not being Christian, I have seen a LOT of churches come up with great ways of committing institutional suicide

My favorite was the local church a friend attended. He met a girl and fell in love: she was pagan, but encouraged him to attend services regularly.

The pastor (younger guy) and church council (one was an old hs teacher of mine) took offense at a member of their congregation marrying outside their faith, and booted him.

 Last I heard, that congregation was rapidly dying due to folks leaving...

You just had to remind me.

25 years ago I married a gal (second marriage for both of us) and moved to the town she was then living in. We chose a small Congregational church and asked the pastor to perform the marriage, which we held outdoors at a site of our choosing rather than in the church. So far, so good.

Once we were married, I liked the pastor and I thought I liked the church, so I joined. (My wife didn't.) On the Sunday they formally took in new members (including yours truly), there was an announcement that they were looking for Sunday school teachers. Not many hands went up, so I decided it might be a way of meeting people and I volunteered. They assigned me the pre-school class. If any of you have dealt with pre-schoolers, although we had a set curriculum, complete with its own picture book, that I tried to follow, "teaching" pre-schoolers is much like trying to herd cats. But I enjoyed it. For all of about two months.

My new wife was a public school teacher in another town, but in our town of residence she had a practice as ... an astrologer. And the local newspaper decided to run a FRONT PAGE article about her, and about astrology. In said article, the reporter mentioned me by name, and stated that I was a Sunday School teacher in the ____ church in town.

WHOOPS! In short order they convened a special inquisition by meeting of the Board of Deacons, at which I was summoned to explain to them that I didn't believe in astrology. Problem was, I couldn't honestly say that ... so I refused. I told them that my wife didn't use it for "fortune telling," but as a psychological counseling tool, I explained that statistically it had been proven valid, and I assured them that I did not practice astrology and that I was most certainly not filling the innocent little pre-schoolers' heads with anything other than what was in our book ..., but that I was NOT going to lie and tell them that I didn't believe in astrology.

They began to get nervous when I asked them if they believed in the story of Jesus' birth and the three magi ("wise men").

Then one of them asked me if I believed in original sin. My response was that I did not, but that even if Man is born in sin, Christianity teaches that Jesus died to cleanse our sins, so everyone born after Jesus' crucifixion would be automatically delivered from sin even IF he were born in sin. They didn't like that at all ... and when they started to object, they liked it even less when the pastor himself (bless his heart) interrupted them to point out that, "You know, your view is extremely fundamentalist, and the answer he just gave you is the answer you would get from probably 98 percent of practicing Christians."

No, they didn't like that at all. So ... there ended my career as a Sunday school teacher. (The marrriage didn't end until six years later, but that's a story for another day.)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #77 on: October 06, 2013, 11:55:44 PM »
Despite not being Christian, I have seen a LOT of churches come up with great ways of committing institutional suicide

My favorite was the local church a friend attended. He met a girl and fell in love: she was pagan, but encouraged him to attend services regularly.

The pastor (younger guy) and church council (one was an old hs teacher of mine) took offense at a member of their congregation marrying outside their faith, and booted him.

 Last I heard, that congregation was rapidly dying due to folks leaving...

By "took offense," do you mean that they interpreted II Cor. 6.14 to prohibit marriage between Christians and non-believers?

I don't know what you mean by "booted." If you mean that he refused to repent, and was told he couldn't be a member/deacon/usher/whatever, then it sounds like they followed Biblical guidelines. If you mean that they told him he was no longer welcome to attend services, then maybe they went too far? Their call, I guess.

None of that sounds particularly egregious. Sounds like they take their faith seriously, just from the way you described it.



Then one of them asked me if I believed in original sin. My response was that I did not, but that even if Man is born in sin, Christianity teaches that Jesus died to cleanse our sins, so everyone born after Jesus' crucifixion would be automatically delivered from sin even IF he were born in sin. They didn't like that at all ... and when they started to object, they liked it even less when the pastor himself (bless his heart) interrupted them to point out that, "You know, your view is extremely fundamentalist, and the answer he just gave you is the answer you would get from probably 98 percent of practicing Christians."

No, they didn't like that at all. So ... there ended my career as a Sunday school teacher.


I don't see how you'd get that answer from 98% of Christians. I've never heard it explained that way. Where did you pick up that view of the matter?  ???

It sounds like you lost the Sunday School gig because your view of Christianity is much different from (and probably less orthodox than) the church where you were teaching it. Yet you seem to think they were in the wrong. Sounds like another congregation that takes their religion as seriously as it deserves, although the pastor sounds very squishy, and in need of some remedial Bible courses. Just from the way you've described it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 12:12:00 AM by fistful »
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Strings

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2013, 12:29:11 AM »
>By "took offense," do you mean that they interpreted II Cor. 6.14 to prohibit marriage between Christians and non-believers?

I don't know what you mean by "booted." If you mean that he refused to repent, and was told he couldn't be a member/deacon/usher/whatever, then it sounds like they followed Biblical guidelines. If you mean that they told him he was no longer welcome to attend services, then maybe they went too far? Their call, I guess.

None of that sounds particularly egregious. Sounds like they take their faith seriously, just from the way you described it.<

Their house, their rules... up to a point

There (as always) is more to the story. After informing him that he was no longer welcome, they started sending regular letters demanding that he attend an "ecclesiastical trial" at the church, and "answer for his sins". Got to a point he was expecting them to show up at the door.

Since I knew one of the deacons, I had a discussion with him, where he said they planned exactly that. I explained the foolhardiness of that idea (as my friend probably would have answered the door gun in hand. He was REALLY tired of their bullscat).

Your church can exclude anyone they want. But it seems foolish to this pagan to exclude someone for marrying outside the faith, especially when that person is encouraging them to continue going to church

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just read the passage you mentioned.

"14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

By the same passage, wouldn't you be "yoked with unbelievers" simply by taking part in APS? After all, there are atheists, Jews, pagans, and others here... all folks who are unbelievers...
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CNYCacher

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2013, 12:34:43 AM »
By the same passage, wouldn't you be "yoked with unbelievers" simply by taking part in APS? After all, there are atheists, Jews, pagans, and others here... all folks who are unbelievers...

What is your understanding of the word "yoked"?
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Strings

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2013, 12:36:28 AM »
Still recovering from a couple 24hr workdays, so brain working a lil slow.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2013, 01:09:31 AM »
Their house, their rules... up to a point

Not marrying unbelievers is not "their rules." Nor is excommunication. Those are both based on scripture. Now, your friend can question whether they are interpreting scripture correctly, but if he has such a major disagreement with them, he's best advised to find another church.

Quote
There (as always) is more to the story. After informing him that he was no longer welcome, they started sending regular letters demanding that he attend an "ecclesiastical trial" at the church, and "answer for his sins". Got to a point he was expecting them to show up at the door.

Oh, so way off the deep end, then. Yeah, definitely find another church.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2013, 01:50:16 AM »
I don't see how you'd get that answer from 98% of Christians. I've never heard it explained that way. Where did you pick up that view of the matter?  ???

That was the pastor's comment, not mine.

Quote
It sounds like you lost the Sunday School gig because your view of Christianity is much different from (and probably less orthodox than) the church where you were teaching it. Yet you seem to think they were in the wrong. Sounds like another congregation that takes their religion as seriously as it deserves, although the pastor sounds very squishy, and in need of some remedial Bible courses. Just from the way you've described it.

They were in the wrong. I "lost the Sunday school gig" because they didn't like what my wife did in her spare time, not (ultimately) because of anything about me. As to where I picked up my view of the matter, I picked it up through  four years at an Episcopal-based college, taking university level theology courses.

Quote
In response to Protestant accusations ("Pelagianism") and errors (original sin remains even after Baptism, though it is not "imputed"), the Council of Trent summed up the traditional teaching on original sin, without deciding the questions discussed among the different theological schools [cf. TCF, # , 5th session of the Council, AD 1546]: Intro. [DS 1510]

    Canon 1 [DS 1511] Adam's sin and its consequences for Adam. See Second Council of Orange, Canon 1 [DS 371].
    Canon 2 [DS 1512] Consequences of Adam's sin for the whole human race: not only punishment (death) is transmitted, but also "sin," "death of the soul," loss of holiness and justice. See II Orange, Canon 2 [DS 371].
    Canon 3 [DS 1513] Original sin is "one in origin" yet "in each and proper to each." This is especially against Albert Pighi (1490-1542) who held that original sin is numerically one in all and not proper to each.
    Original sin is transmitted by propagatione and not by imitation; this is a rejection of the Pelagian view, without deciding whether natural generation is the cause, or rather only the necessary condition (as most theologians today believe) of original sin.
    Original sin can be taken away only by the merits of Christ.
    Canon 4 [DS 1514] See Council of Carthage, Canon 2 [DS 223] -- Even infants, "who in themselves have committed no sin," are truly baptized "for the remission of sins." Thus, peccatum originale originatum is truly "sin" but distinguished from personal sins (see also Canon 5).
    The Vulgate interpretation of Romans 5:12 does not seem to be defined, even though it would surely be contrary to the mind of the Council to deny that Romans 5:12 (in its context, and not necessarily with the explicitness of later theology) teaches original sin.
    Canon 5 [DS 1515] Baptism takes away everything that is truly "sin" -- it is not only "imputation" of righteousness, but real transformation.
    "Concupiscence" remains, but it is not really sin.

Ergo: If a person is baptized in Christ, any original sin with which he/she might have been born is gone. The deacons at this church wanted me to acknowledge that original sin remained even after baptism. It doesn't.

And, now that you've challenged me on my view, I am forced to remember that "interview" in more detail. In fact, the elder deacon didn't ask me if I believed in original sin, he asked me if I believed that I was a sinner. (Subtle difference.) That was what led to the discussion about the sacrifice of Jesus cleansing all who come after of sin.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 02:00:19 AM by Hawkmoon »
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MrsSmith

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2013, 09:51:48 AM »

That is the modern myth - an arbitrary redefining of the word. There is no reason why "religion" should now apply only to any aspect of spiritual beliefs and practices that our culture finds less important, or chooses to look down upon. If there is, then what is there about the spiritual person that can't also be described as religious?

Additionally, there is no reason why spirituality should only apply to the happy, fuzzy parts of a religion. The people directing the planes into the World Trade Center were most certainly animated by some spirit or other.

What I'm trying to say (though not very well) is that one can be spiritual/religious but not follow the doctrine of a specific religion (or denomination of a religion). I'm not arguing that spiritual and religious have the same or similar meaning or that one can't be both. Though one can be spiritual without being religious, but I don't think one can be religious without being spiritual.
One can believe in God, adhere to the moral principles outlined in the bible - and other religious literature - and live his life accordingly, but not adhere only to the doctrine of a specific religion. There are aspects of Christianity, some Pagan doctrines, Judaism, and Buddhism that are solid moral guides and good life principles. There are also aspects of each other those, including Christianity, that are illogical and potentially damaging, that I refuse to accept. But I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting an aspect of a religion that is organized and run by simple humans. 
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zxcvbob

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2013, 10:05:36 AM »
The big mistake IMHO was allowing a brand new member to teach.  This was their fault, not yours.  (at least they didn't try to make you a deacon)

I'm not sure I agree with the doctrine of "original sin" -- I'd have to study it to see what the boundaries are.  Romans 5:12 is a pretty good summary of our current condition, but I am not responsible for my parents' sin (and certainly not Adam's sin, for one thing that was more than 4 generations ago, Numbers 14:18); I have enough sin of my own, thank-you-very-much.
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lee n. field

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2013, 11:10:58 AM »
The big mistake IMHO was allowing a brand new member to teach.  This was their fault, not yours.  (at least they didn't try to make you a deacon)

Absolutely.  They should have vetted Hawkmoon out before letting him teach.  (And vice versa.)

Quote
'm not sure I agree with the doctrine of "original sin" -- I'd have to study it to see what the boundaries are.  Romans 5:12 is a pretty good summary of our current condition, but I am not responsible for my parents' sin (and certainly not Adam's sin, for one thing that was more than 4 generations ago, Numbers 14:18); I have enough sin of my own, thank-you-very-much.

"federal headship".  Not an individualistic western notion.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 10:43:21 PM by lee n. field »
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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2013, 11:31:14 AM »
What I'm trying to say (though not very well) is that one can be spiritual/religious but not follow the doctrine of a specific religion (or denomination of a religion). I'm not arguing that spiritual and religious have the same or similar meaning or that one can't be both. Though one can be spiritual without being religious, but I don't think one can be religious without being spiritual.
One can believe in God, adhere to the moral principles outlined in the bible - and other religious literature - and live his life accordingly, but not adhere only to the doctrine of a specific religion. There are aspects of Christianity, some Pagan doctrines, Judaism, and Buddhism that are solid moral guides and good life principles. There are also aspects of each other those, including Christianity, that are illogical and potentially damaging, that I refuse to accept. But I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting an aspect of a religion that is organized and run by simple humans. 

You should start a religion.  ;) :P :P
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Strings

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2013, 01:36:58 PM »
Why not: worked for Gerald Gardner. With what have been some fairly humorous results over the years
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2013, 05:24:10 PM »
It worked for L. Ron Hubbard, too.

For awhile.
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drewtam

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2013, 06:33:47 PM »
You crazy Calvinists and invented ideas of original sin.

 [popcorn]
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zxcvbob

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2013, 06:45:45 PM »
You crazy Calvinists and invented ideas of original sin.

 [popcorn]

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle between the Calvinists and the Arminianists (sp?)  They both got part of it right, then went too far.  Arminians discount man's depravity and God's grace, and Calvinists discount man's responsibility.  Or something like that; maybe I'm not drawing the line quite right either (been a few years since I researched it) ;)

ETA: The truth has to accommodate the "whosoever" in John 3:16 and the "elect" and "predestined" in several of Paul's letters. 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 06:51:09 PM by zxcvbob »
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roo_ster

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2013, 06:57:08 PM »
I taught an adult Bible study class at the church where I met my wife, as they needed someone responsible enough to provide responsible leadership.  I took me a while but I came to realize that my doctrine and the church's were a ways apart on certain topics.  Out of respect for the church and my fellow students, and to not be the cause of internal strife, I did not address those points directly in my studies or would foist off a "I would suggest you speak with Asst Pastor SoAndSo for the church's position on that."  Only got pinned a few times, where I was asked point blank, "What is your belief?"  I did not lie or dissemble, but first presented what I thought the church's doctrine was in that area and that they ought to get further guidance from Asst Pastor SoAndSo.  I then described my position and how it contrasted with that of the church's.

If the church had not been so hard up for responsible adults with a pulse I would have not volunteered.  Same thing for staying on when I got wind of the second-tier doctrine.  Wife and I managed to bow out gracefully at a later point.

At any point, if the church had objected to my leading that class I would have understood and bowed out.  It is their right and their responsibility to provide sound doctrinal instruction according to their lights.  


Oh, and "yoked" is in regard to marriage, not general dealings in society.
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Strings

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2013, 09:04:21 PM »
Caught that.

Like I said: several 24hr shifts, turns brain to tapioca
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2013, 10:18:36 PM »
You should start a religion.  ;) :P :P

Worked pretty good for Hubbbard.
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MechAg94

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2013, 10:21:03 PM »
That one thing nice down here in a way.  There are hundreds of churches within 100 miles of me.  If I don't like one, there are a bunch more around.  Find one that works for you.  Not even mentioning online or remote study.  
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drewtam

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2013, 08:49:50 AM »
I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle between the Calvinists and the Arminianists (sp?)  They both got part of it right, then went too far.  Arminians discount man's depravity and God's grace, and Calvinists discount man's responsibility.  Or something like that; maybe I'm not drawing the line quite right either (been a few years since I researched it) ;)

ETA: The truth has to accommodate the "whosoever" in John 3:16 and the "elect" and "predestined" in several of Paul's letters. 

Sure. Also has to account the God's idea of justice in Ezekiel 18. Or the idea in 2 Peter 2 that one can be saved, but then also lose that state of grace again. Or again in 2 Peter 3 that God desires all to be saved.

When simpler and numerous explanations lead in a different direction than the more complicated and rarer explanations, I suggest its reasonable to start from the simple and try to understand the complex from that. In other words, if the conclusion from the complex contradicts the simpler explanations, then the interpretation of the complex is where we are wrong, not the interpretation of the simple.


But backing up from that, I think it interesting that when confronted with Gnosticism and similar philosophical issues, the apostles and prophets did not argue these things from a philosophical or theological stand. But rather, they focused on the simpler facts that ought not to be denied. In John's case of confronting Gnostics, he explained exactly what love of God looks like (its obeying) and that Jesus came in the flesh, despite the conclusions that the Gnostic might have come to. But he never really confronts the core assumptions and speculations of the Gnostics, only the erroneous conclusions.
In Peter and Paul's case of confronting the Jewish/Christian hybrids, they explained it is OK to be circumcised, just don't require that of others. And gentile Christians should avoid doing things that stir up strife.

Which reminds me of the instruction to Timothy, to avoid arguing about myths, genealogies. And to not permit teaching of strange doctrines [I think the implication is public teaching, but not sure on that]. These things focus on speculations rather than the things we know we ought to do (in the context, "love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith"). Paul goes back to saying, keep the instruction focused on the real things people need to avoid, lawlessness, profane, murderers, immoral, homosexual, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is against sound doctrine (1 Tim 1). These things (righteousness behavior) is the doctrine of God, not high ideas of philosophy.


The way these various speculations and ideas are treated, it seems that the apostles are willing to allow people to search out these things as much as they want, as long as they aren't creating division and arguments over it. AND as long as they aren't inventing ways to do what is plainly wrong (denying Jesus, denying baptism, accepting divorce and remarriage, lust, hatred, greed, etc).

So circling back to what Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and Popes and Arminians have taught, I don't really care what they speculated, as long as they do not contradict the things which is clearly commanded.
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MrsSmith

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2013, 06:39:25 PM »
You should start a religion.  ;) :P :P

Are you saying I'm a Goddess?   :rofl:
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #97 on: October 08, 2013, 10:44:28 PM »
Are you saying I'm a Goddess?   :rofl:

I must resist ...

I must resist ...

I must resist ...

I SOOOO want to post a smart-alecky retort ... but (for once) I won't.
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Scout26

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2013, 12:45:50 PM »
I must resist ...

I must resist ...

I must resist ...

I SOOOO want to post a smart-alecky retort ... but (for once) I won't.

I will for you.    =D

Are you saying I'm a Goddess?   :rofl:

Kitchen, Domestic, Sammich.  Your choice.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Tallpine

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Re: I got bounced out of a church today
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »
Are you saying I'm a Goddess?   :rofl:

All you need is someone to worship you.   =)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin