Author Topic: Guns To End Movies  (Read 9727 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2013, 12:24:17 PM »
That whole Jurassic Park thing bugged me, with the double rifle and the charging T-rex.

What was that, some sort of .600 Nitro?  Yeah, it's an elephant gun.  But rexes had gigantic, thick skulls.  Strongest bite of any dinosaur, ever.  Takes a lot of muscle to create that, and a lot of bone structure to attach that muscle.  While rexes and elephants both weigh in somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 pounds, a rex skull is WAY tougher than an elephant skull.

Even had the double rifle actually been fired at the rex, I doubt it would have stopped the animal.  A T-rex is one of those animals where "shoulder-fired" and "man-portable" just isn't enough, and it's time to resort to "crew served."
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TommyGunn

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 12:46:17 PM »
That whole Jurassic Park thing bugged me, with the double rifle and the charging T-rex.

What was that, some sort of .600 Nitro?  Yeah, it's an elephant gun.  But rexes had gigantic, thick skulls.  Strongest bite of any dinosaur, ever.  Takes a lot of muscle to create that, and a lot of bone structure to attach that muscle.  While rexes and elephants both weigh in somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 pounds, a rex skull is WAY tougher than an elephant skull.

Even had the double rifle actually been fired at the rex, I doubt it would have stopped the animal.  A T-rex is one of those animals where "shoulder-fired" and "man-portable" just isn't enough, and it's time to resort to "crew served."
???  Who said you fire at a Tyrannosaurus Rex's head?

You KNEECAP the beast! :laugh: [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [popcorn] [popcorn] :rofl:
It falls down and crushes its ribcage. . . and asphyxiates itself......


Seriously.

Phased pulse rifle in the 40 megawatt range.   Really.    I mean if you had that who cares how much bone & muscle the Tyrannosaur had in its skull?  =D ;/
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2013, 12:49:02 PM »


Seriously.

Phased pulseplasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range.   Really.    I mean if you had that who cares how much bone & muscle the Tyrannosaur had in its skull?  =D ;/

Pulse rifles are from the Alien franchise.  Get yer memes straight. ;)
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TommyGunn

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2013, 12:52:22 PM »
Pulse rifles are from the Alien franchise.  Get yer memes straight. ;)
:facepalm:  Try the Terminator  franchise.  Get YOUR memes straight! ;)
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K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2013, 12:54:03 PM »
" a rex skull is WAY tougher than an elephant skull."

You're basing that claimservation on what, exactly?
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TommyGunn

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »
" a rex skull is WAY tougher than an elephant skull."

You're basing that claimservation on what, exactly?

Fossil evidence I presume......
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 12:56:38 PM »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 12:57:28 PM »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 12:59:13 PM »
The fossil evidence really doesn't hold up for that kind of assessment.

An elephant's skull is, in places, well over a foot thick of bone, especially in the frontal aspect (sort of looking at the forehead).

I'm pretty sure that the T Rex's skull wasn't any thicker, nor was the bone any denser, which means that there would really be nothing special about its ability to deflect bullets.

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TommyGunn

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 01:02:12 PM »
:facepalm:  Try the Terminator   franchise.  Get YOUR memes straight! ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STQ3obk5oA8  


Gee whiz we're being sooooooooooooooo  picky!    [tinfoil]

Let's just stick with phasers.  That simplifies things.    Right?  :angel: :lol:
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K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 01:06:59 PM »
OK, you're reading WAY too much into the term 'strength,' and interpreting it incorrectly.

Snively et al.'s work is a very interesting read. But, it's talking primarily about the strength of the skull due to its shape and overall construction, NOT any greater density, thickness, etc., of bone.

This sentence is particularly indicative of that:

"These elements are fused together in nearly all tyrannosaurid specimens and invariably display arch−like vaulting."

Fusing of the individual bone plates into one large plate would give substantially greater constuctive strength, as would the vaulting.

Think of it this way...

An egg shell.

An egg is a homogenous, solid mass that displays great strength due to how it's formed and shaped, but the material used to form the whole is extremely thin and easily penetrated.



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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 01:12:21 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gnx1zuX8ns


Studies suggest a T-rex had enough muscle in its jaws to build the same crushing power in its bite, as an entire elephant sitting on something.

To muster that kind of strength in the jaw and upper skull, you need strong bones to attach to or else you get muscle separation or broken bones/teeth from the crush strength.


ETA:  I see what you're saying.  Architecture over brute strength.  OK, I can dig it.
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230RN

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 01:14:21 PM »
A .177 pellet to the eyeball.

OK, you're not that good a shot?

Then four or five 3-1/2" goose loads with BBs or #4 Buck to the face.

One or two pellets are bound to cause a Collyrium moment.

Roll credits.

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REF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyrium

« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:19:04 PM by 230RN »
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KD5NRH

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2013, 01:42:25 PM »
Shoot for the neck.  If it's coming at you, aiming for the centerline with enough force is bound to break something important.

K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2013, 01:43:46 PM »
"Studies suggest a T-rex had enough muscle in its jaws to build the same crushing power in its bite, as an entire elephant sitting on something."

Yes, and once again, that translates into construction more than absolute durability via thickness.

This is a 1/4 scale cast, but it shows what I'm talking about.



The skull is VERY strong and heavily constructed where it needs to be strong to support the musculature associated with its bite strength -- the lower rear jaws, what we could consider to be cheek bones in humans, and the rear of the skull.

But notice over the top of the skull, over what we call the nose, sweeping back towards the eyes and ears, and over the frontal area that on humans would be the forehead.

The bone there isn't nearly as thick, and there are very large areas where there's no bone. But what there is is construction. That part of the T Rex's skull looks almost like the arched windows in a Gothic cathedral. Evolution designed the T Rex's skull so that the bone was thick where it needed to be thick (muscle attachment points), but not nearly as thick but VERY structurally strong, in areas where bone mass isn't critical but structral strenght is (in this case, to provide the platform for the T Rex's bite).

There's absolutely no magic to that, and it wouldn't be all that hard to get a bullet into the T Rex's brain because there's not much protecting it. It's all structural engineering.

You see reverse construction on other dinosaurs where the heads were used differently, such as the bony skulled dinosaurs like Pachycephalosaurus. It's thought that such dinosaurs had extremely thick skull crowns and very strong neck muscles because they either used them for defense or for fighting for mates (think big horn rams). Those dinosaurs would have been problematic to get a bullet into.

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K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »
ETA:  I see what you're saying.  Architecture over brute strength.  OK, I can dig it.

Yep, but more correctly, I'm saying the proper relationship of architecture AND brute strength.

Looking at the upperworks of the T Rex's skull again, and really studying it, and it's almost beautiful -- the sweeping lines, the arches, the crests.

Evolution, Hand of God, whatever, at its finest.
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brimic

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »
Copper solids in a dangerous game chambering should do just fine with a T-rex.
Elephants and rhinos have been killed with a whole lot less.

A flame thrower would also be a good option- there isn't anything living that can't be killed with an appropriate amount of fire.
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Chuck Dye

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2013, 08:12:56 PM »
Returning, kinda, sorta, to the original question, how many times could a bystander have picked up a dropped gun and used it to good effect (or ill?)  Just re-watched Lethal Weapon and found myself snarling to that effect at the Rianne Murtagh character in the ransom meet on the dry lake, but the generic scene is the film noir private dick duking it out with a bad guy while the frail stands uselessly by.  It is as old as the movies and goes even farther back in print fiction.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 09:24:16 PM »
If I recall my Ruark et al correctly, elephant skull isn't tough to penetrate because it is -hard- and thick, it is tough to penetrate because it is "spongy" and thick.  More like modern tank armor, it doesn't shatter, it absorbs the energy, thus the need to punch a solid all the way through rather than just create a breach.
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Tallpine

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2013, 09:27:04 PM »
If I recall my Ruark et al correctly, elephant skull isn't tough to penetrate because it is -hard- and thick, it is tough to penetrate because it is "spongy" and thick.  More like modern tank armor, it doesn't shatter, it absorbs the energy, thus the need to punch a solid all the way through rather than just create a breach.

Good to know, since there are a lot of elephants running around out here in the hills of Montana  =D
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just Warren

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2013, 09:40:22 PM »
There are, they just do all their stampeding from home via the internet. So yeah, they're.....telephants. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2013, 09:52:05 PM »
Good to know, since there are a lot of elephants running around out here in the hills of Montana  =D

Karamojo Bell killed hundreds with a .260 or something.  Shot placement being key and all.  =D
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K Frame

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2013, 09:18:51 AM »
An elephant's frontal skull is FAR thicker than a T Rex's. It needs to be extremely sturdy because of all of the attachment points for the muscles in the trunk.

Bell killed most of his elephants with three cartridges, the 6.5x53 Mannlicher Schoenaur military round, the .275 Rigby (7mm Mauser) and the .303 British.

In all cases he sought out the FMJ military round nose cartridges for their excellent, deep penetration.
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seeker_two

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 09:37:27 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STQ3obk5oA8  



Gee whiz we're being sooooooooooooooo  picky!    [tinfoil]

Let's just stick with phasers.  That simplifies things.    Right?  :angel: :lol:

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Triphammer

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Re: Guns To End Movies
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
To the OP- "CUJO"  Any gun that would fire @ contact range = a three minute movie.