Author Topic: This maybe one for THR, but...  (Read 1672 times)

Lo.Com.Denom

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This maybe one for THR, but...
« on: August 30, 2006, 02:06:26 AM »
More Anti-gun lunacy, but this time it's on my own gun-crime free doorstep!

http://www.eadt.co.uk/content/eadt/news/story.aspx?brand=EADOnline&category=News&tBrand=EADOnline&tCategory=zNews&itemid=IPED29%20Aug%202006%2022%3A59%3A03%3A350

How do you make this enormous link into a managable "click here" type link, BTW?

Iain

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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 02:23:24 AM »
I'll use the wrong type of brackets to illustrate, but you should replace { } with [ ]

{url=www.123.com}click here{/url}
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 03:08:48 AM »
Quote
ANTI-GUN campaigners voiced their concern last night after figures showed the number of legally owned guns in Suffolk had soared by 40% in five years.
NO!!!!
Quote
Firearms are defined as lethal barrelled weapons of any description from which shots, bullets or other missiles can be discharged.
Yes, bullets or other missiles.

Quote
A spokesman for IANSA said: It's totally possible every single rifle has been carefully justified. But guns can end up being used illegally. Our concern is not that they are going to be used in gun grime in the sense of muggings in the street, but rather more likely seeing an increase in fatalities in domestic violence as mostly men obtain guns.
"Woman, if I had a gun, I would beat you something fierce!  But since I don't have one, let's discuss our differences over tea and crumpets."  

Quote
Guns are meant to be locked in a cabinet but there are plenty of stories of police going to a home and finding the gun unlocked and out.
NO!!!

Smiley
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 05:33:27 AM »
I haven't checked in at THR, yet, but I imagine it will be there in L&P and folks will harumph mightily and at great length...

Somebody come up with a new meaning for IANSA.  I know the first initial stands for "Idiots"...

Why is it that people who worry about crime keep worrying about controlling LEGAL ownership of firearms?

Idiots.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 06:49:59 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Why is it that people who worry about crime keep worrying about controlling LEGAL ownership of firearms?
Because they can't control the illegal ownership.
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spinr

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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 07:03:07 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Somebody come up with a new meaning for IANSA.  I know the first initial stands for "Idiots"...

Art
Idiots
Assholes
Nincompoops &
Sonsabitches
Association

Cheesy

El Tejon

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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2006, 07:17:01 AM »
50K firearms in all of Suffolk?

I think there are more guns than that in my basement?Cheesy
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Lo.Com.Denom

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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2006, 07:30:54 AM »
Thanks Iain! Smiley Another one to cross off my list of "Things I didn't know that I needed to know, until I needed to know it".

It seems to me that there's an almighty amount of straw-clutching going on at the IANSA, if that's the best they can do. I mean "domestic violence"? That's got to be the most infantile argument against gun ownership yet. But they have to resort to that because, despite the high instances of gun ownership, our region is almost completely free of "gun crime". Plenty of other sorts of crime, just not "gun crime".

They also specifically mentioned men using violence against their families, coincidentally on the same day that I found two instances of women doing just that, in the local and national papers! First, a lady who lamped her husband on the head with a hammer 17 times; and second a woman who burnt up her baby in a house fire and tried to fake a home invasion scenario to cover up her crime. Not claiming that women are more prone to it, or anything, it just struck me as ironic.

Oh, and the EADT's editorial contained a priceless summary:

Quote
However, there should be no let-up in the stringent checks on applicants for licences. One death caused by a legally issued weapon is one death too many.
I would argue that one death caused by deliberate strangulation is one death too many. As is one death by bludgeoning. As is one death by smothering. As is one death by being force-fed toast. As is one death by etc., etc., etc....

Well, the fact that licences are up 40% in 5 years in this region, is enough to make me happy. Bodes well for the future, I think!

Iain

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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2006, 08:07:49 AM »
I was watching the local news today and there was an item about a farmer who has been subject to acts of arson and damage for the last four years, culminating in a recent arson attack on a barn in which sixteen calves were burned to death. Local kids have also used his livestock for airgun practice. More shotguns might just help him out.
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K Frame

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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2006, 08:23:17 AM »
I've given up on Britain.

What happened to the nation of Lionheart, Nelson, Churchill?

I guess they became irrelevant when English Common Law was replaced with Silly Nanny law.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2006, 08:50:23 AM »
Quote from: Lo.Com.Denom
 They also specifically mentioned men using violence against their families, coincidentally on the same day that I found two instances of women doing just that
The irony is that men usually don't need guns to beat up their wives.  And I doubt they ever use them for that purpose.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Standing Wolf

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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2006, 05:55:23 PM »
Quote
What happened to the nation of Lionheart, Nelson, Churchill?
The best of England fought and died in World Wars I and II. The slacker socialist parasites were all that survived.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Iain

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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2006, 11:12:58 PM »
Quote from: Standing Wolf
Quote
What happened to the nation of Lionheart, Nelson, Churchill?
The best of England fought and died in World Wars I and II. The slacker socialist parasites were all that survived.
I just love these bizarre theories. Some of the 'best of England' couldn't go to war, you know, on gender grounds. Or on age grounds or so on.

I suspect that if we were to analyse the real reason for the Labour victory in '45, or British domestic social policy since '45, through social changes in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, we'd probably come up with a far more complex and rational explanation than yours.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 04:18:29 AM »
Quote from: Iain
...I suspect that if we were to analyse the real reason for the Labour victory in '45, or British domestic social policy since '45, through social changes in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, we'd probably come up with a far more complex and rational explanation than yours.
True, but then how would we stereotype all of the English as being socialist, pantywaisted, metrosexual, chinless folks with bad teeth?

Take all of the fun out of it why don't you?
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

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Art Eatman

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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 06:46:51 AM »
"What happened to the nation of Lionheart, Nelson, Churchill?"

The best of them went into the SAS.  The other sort went into politics.

Iain, the voters in your country and ours elect the people who pass or try to pass these laws denying liberty to us commoners.  Looks like our resistance is stronger at our national level, and has become at least somewhat positive at our state level.

IOW, we gunnies care and we've gotten organized and we fight the hard political fight.

All we can see from the news is that your majority doesn't seem to care much about personal liberty, personal sovereignty.  If it did, there would be much, much more public protest against the horrors being perpetrated upon your populace.  (Well, what we see as horrors, insofar as what's shown in the press about personal defense.)

Yeah, sure, social problems stem from many reasons and causes.  Liberty is simple, however:  You have it or you don't.  Boston T Party's comment in "Molon Labe" is apropos, however:  If you don't know what you've lost, you don't miss it.  You can clip an eagle's wings but he's still an eagle.  The dodo's wings atrophied.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Iain

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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 08:52:10 AM »
Not enough time to respond fully Art, but I'll just say quickly that I've never objected to fair comment.

Also, when I said that the explanation would be more rational I meant that it would make more sense than some WWII related reverse eugenics argument could ever make, not necessarily that the path this country has taken makes rational sense.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2006, 09:20:38 AM »
No argument with you there, Iain...

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Iain

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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2006, 01:00:08 PM »
Art,

I'll preface this with the acknowledgment that you may might entirely correct - I might be unaware of what I haven't got because I haven't had it.

What liberty is it to which you refer? I appreciate the argument about firearms and personal defense and all that being a right and a litmus test, and I agree with a good deal of it, except to say that I'm sure you are aware that the state of self defense in this country is often inaccurately portrayed. Also, tyrants may be 'gun control' -ers, but 'gun control' -ers are not necessarily tyrants, or would be tyrants. They're just paving a different road to hell that isn't necessarily a hell of dictatorial, populace slaughtering persuasions.

It is hard to place all that aside, and I'm not suggesting that we should, except to say that the personal liberties of the British citizen don't seem to be vastly different from the personal liberties of the American citizen. I have the right to a trial by jury, to know the charges (with similar restrictions), to protest (with similar restrictions), to print and read charged material of several different natures (with similar restrictions). My internet use is not restricted, my telephone is no more likely to be tapped, I am not subject to curfew or travel restriction. I'm not being obtuse here, I'm just suggesting that reading some you'd think that Britain is a gulag.

So, I'm not sure what these horrors are. You are right that there is less interest in personal sovereignty, or more accurately I perceive that there is less interest in Brits of my acquaintance than there is amongst Americans of my acquaintance. However, the latter group consists of APS and THR, so it's probably not a valid sample.

I'm prepared to be schooled by the wiser man.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2006, 01:27:49 PM »
Quote from: Iain
Art,

I'll preface this with the acknowledgment that you may might entirely correct - I might be unaware of what I haven't got because I haven't had it.

What liberty is it to which you refer? I appreciate the argument about firearms and personal defense and all that being a right and a litmus test, and I agree with a good deal of it, except to say that I'm sure you are aware that the state of self defense in this country is often inaccurately portrayed. Also, tyrants may be 'gun control' -ers, but 'gun control' -ers are not necessarily tyrants, or would be tyrants. They're just paving a different road to hell that isn't necessarily a hell of dictatorial, populace slaughtering persuasions.

It is hard to place all that aside, and I'm not suggesting that we should, except to say that the personal liberties of the British citizen don't seem to be vastly different from the personal liberties of the American citizen. I have the right to a trial by jury, to know the charges (with similar restrictions), to protest (with similar restrictions), to print and read charged material of several different natures (with similar restrictions). My internet use is not restricted, my telephone is no more likely to be tapped, I am not subject to curfew or travel restriction. I'm not being obtuse here, I'm just suggesting that reading some you'd think that Britain is a gulag.

So, I'm not sure what these horrors are. You are right that there is less interest in personal sovereignty, or more accurately I perceive that there is less interest in Brits of my acquaintance than there is amongst Americans of my acquaintance. However, the latter group consists of APS and THR, so it's probably not a valid sample.

I'm prepared to be schooled by the wiser man.
I'm probably not a wiser man, but I'll throw in a few points on the issue.

Starting with the caveat that, other than gun/self defense rights, I'd put Britain on the short list (probably counted on one hand) of the 'freest' of the civilized countries...

A large part of the issue I think is that Americans see decline of British civil liberties looming more largely simply because we probably have more back and forth press between the U.S. and Britain than perhaps any other nation. I'm sure the obverse is true as well. Decline of American civil liberties (references to patriot act, secrecy of the Bush administration, abortion laws etc), feature prominently in American-British discussions too.

Another point I'd make is that British common law rights are perceived in the American law community as bellweather to American rights.

Your examples are perfect actually. Trial by jury has been restricted or proposed to be eliminated in Britain recently (I disremember which). The "right to remain silent" abolished. The right to a grand jury abolished.

 Free speech has never meant the same thing in Britain as in the U.S, with prior restraint on what papers may print (official secrets act, subjudice, and much easier libel claims with no appeal to a "first amendment) and has even gotten to the point where (even if they are ridiculous made up stories by the British press) the perception is there that people voicing politically incorrect opinions may face legal action (The Evening Standard claimed this week that a Polish birth goalie in a Scot football league {the Celtics was it?} is facing prosecution for crossing himself after saving a goal, and yes I might have the particulars wrong on that).

I've had my own internet use substantially restricted on a now defunct message board "This is London"  because of British publishing ('libel' and 'subjudice') laws, and the NYT is talking about restricting access to British citizens because they don't want to comply with British standards on those issues.

That's not to say there aren't many priviledges Britons enjoy that Americans don't.  As far as "rights", the only I can think of is not to be subject to capital punishment.

Edit - I recalled several more rights Britons enjoy that Americans don't on my drive home from work. A codification of the maximum penalty for murder being xyz numbers of years imprisonment before being eligible for parole. Trespass rights that far exceed that in the United States. Those familiar with the European Constitutition can probably name more. I thought of another English common law (now American) right that has been substantially eroded recently (less so, but still having been eroded, in America), the prohibition on "double jeopardy" in criminal trials.

In all fairness I have to point out that 99.9% or greater of arguments on the general issue involve not fair comparisons between legal systems, but simple one-upsmanship in the manner of "my country is better than yours" (I think Britain has a much better and fairer tort system than the American), but for those who follow legal principles, we know that what happens in Bristol will be occuring in Newark soon enough, and what happens in Los Angeles will occur in Belfast sooner or later in all likelyhood..

edited again to try to remove some typos and clean up grammar, etc...
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

"Malone Labe"