Drifting dovetailed sights to correct POI

[230RN]

My son and I have the same problem.  Autos shoot left for both of us, regardless of make or model.

I've calculated that on my present carry gun in 9mm the sight has to be moved 0.02 in to the right.  The last time I tried to drift a 1911 sight to correct this problem, I put witness marks on the sight by magic markering the slide and the sight, with a slight scratch in the marks (not through to the bluing or the metal) and hit it pretty good with a small hammer and brass drift without moving it and finally gave up.

I've researched this a bit on the 'net and discovered that it sometimes takes quite a couple of goodly raps to move the dovetailed sight and I wondered if they used some kind of cement (loctite, epoxy, model cement?) or shrunk-fit the sights into the dovetails.  

If they use a cement, is there a solvent which would loosen the sight?

If they're shrunk into the dovetail, is there a method (dry ice, heating the slide?) to loosen them?

If they're just pressed in with a really tight "wringing fit," how much rapping with how heavy a hammer (and drift) can be used without damaging something?  (I realize this would be subjective, but any guidance would be appreciated.)

Links would be appreciated.

I know about the jigs used to adjust sights, but they are all over $100, so don't bother suggesting the purchase of one.

My son and I both agree that this seems to be a universal problem with almost all autos we've both used, so suggestions about changing grips or holds to change POI are out of the question.

Thanks in advance.

Terry, 230RN

[RoadKingLarry]

AKA the wheel of misery

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

[lee n. field]

what gun?  the sights of the springfield xd are notoriously tight in their dovetail.

[Cliffh]

I wonder if a C-clamp or vise with appropriate home-made fixtures would work?

[230RN]

Road King Larry:
I never thought much of that wheel of misery.  If one obtains consistent off-center groups, one should correct the sights to compensate.   Both my son and I are well-versed in consistent holding and sight picturing, etc, and are not bad shots at all.  We all know that every gun is a rule unto itself, and that sighting corrections are frequently necessary even when changing from one shooter to the other, so it's necessary in this case to adjust the sights, not to correct any deficiencies in the shooter(s).  

lee n. field:
It doesn't matter "what gun," simply that autos in general with dovetailed fixed sights need to have the sights moved for us.  Maybe it's something genetic with our particular eyeballs.  However, FYI, this is true in several cases with 1911s, and in particular in this case, a Kahr CW9.  I have noted the same problem with Patridge-style sights in my rifles as well over the years.  Out-of-the-box, I always have to crank the windage a little to move the group to the right. (I didn't ask my son if he noticed it with rifles as well.)

Cliffh:
I was thinking of drilling and tapping a large NF hole in a 1/4" steel plate and (with cushioning) mounting the plate and slide in a hefty vise,  then pushing the sight over with a screw.  The advantage here is the precision with which the sight could be moved, just based on the screw pitch, but "drifting" it over seems to be the simplest solution.  

So it would still be helpful to know whether they're cemented in, or shrunk in, or are just a wringing fit, or if I just need a bigger hammer or some dry ice, or what (see OP).

Terry, 230RN

[Boomhauer]

While drifting with punch and hammer is an acceptable method of moving a sight, the best method is with a sight pusher. This is especially so with tritium sights.

Properly done dovetailed sights are not loctited or anything, they are just really tight.

[French G.]

Don't hit a tritium sight please. I try to not drop guns, good habit right? Dumped the Glock 17 on concrete 2 days after installing Heinie night sights. It landed on the front sight of course, magic glow all gone. I'd look at making a sight pusher if I were you, Block of aluminum with a U channel a little wider than most slide widths and a drilled and tapped hole for a jackscrew. Simple. While a mill might make it look all professional and stuff you can cut the U verticals with a hacksaw and chain drill the base cut.

[vaskidmark]

AKA the wheel of misery

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

Not always the cure.

Like Terry, a perfect sight picture does not  put me in the x-ring.   I shoot low and left with every gun I pick up.  Why?  Screwed up eyes, thank you for asking.  Hand the gun to anybody else and they are dead center.  Adjusting the sights for me puts me dead center whether holding onto the gun or using a ransom rest that I sight.  Give that same gun to just about anybody else and it shoots high and right.  (Duh!)  Give me your gun and two shots and I can apply Kentucky Windage enough to stay in the black.

Terry - a sight pusher is the way to go.  You can control the drift much easier and not end up whacking the sights back and forth to get the last .001-inch.

stay safe.

[lee n. field]

Multiple guns, multiple people?   Stop messing around.  Get a sight pusher tool.

[HankB]

AKA the wheel of misery

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

If the groups are both small and consistent, it's almost certainly a matter of an individual's own grip & eyes, rather than a flaw in their technique. That calls for a sight adjustment.

[Hawkmoon]

I've researched this a bit on the 'net and discovered that it sometimes takes quite a couple of goodly raps to move the dovetailed sight and I wondered if they used some kind of cement (loctite, epoxy, model cement?) or shrunk-fit the sights into the dovetails.  

If they use a cement, is there a solvent which would loosen the sight?

If they're shrunk into the dovetail, is there a method (dry ice, heating the slide?) to loosen them?

If they're just pressed in with a really tight "wringing fit," how much rapping with how heavy a hammer (and drift) can be used without damaging something?  (I realize this would be subjective, but any guidance would be appreciated.)

I know (because they've told me) that Armscor (Rock Island Armory) uses RED Loctite on the rear sights of their 1911s. Red Loctite is released only with heat. I recently tested another brand of 1911 and had the rear sight (which had two set screws, meaning it should have been adjustable for windage) fly off. Inspection showed a slightly shiny red surface on both the bottom of the dovetail and the bottom of the sight. How a sight held in place with red Loctite and TWO set screws came loose is a mystery but, fortunately, not my problem. The gun will go back to the manufacturer this week, and they can worry about it.

[lee n. field]

My brother's Springfield Loaded, 1999 vintage, is a model and vintage known for having the set screw come loose and the rear sight drift.  Without the set screw, it's loose in the dovetail.

[RoadKingLarry]

I know (because they've told me) that Armscor (Rock Island Armory) uses RED Loctite on the rear sights of their 1911s. Red Loctite is released only with heat. I recently tested another brand of 1911 and had the rear sight (which had two set screws, meaning it should have been adjustable for windage) fly off. Inspection showed a slightly shiny red surface on both the bottom of the dovetail and the bottom of the sight. How a sight held in place with red Loctite and TWO set screws came loose is a mystery but, fortunately, not my problem. The gun will go back to the manufacturer this week, and they can worry about it.

I replaced the rear sights on both my RIA 1911s and didn't have any real problems drifting the factory sight out. Getting the replacements to fit were a different story.

[dogmush]

I flattened some slide serrations on a RIA before I thought of the Loctite. They're in there pretty good.

[230RN]

Double post.

[230RN]

How much heat for the Loctite?  Hair dryer level? Soldering gun level?  Blowtorch?   An RIA 1911 was the auto I tried to drift the sight on and gave up.  I haven't done anything with the Kahr CW9 yet, though, besides calculating the movement required.  I'm looking for general advice before bubba-ing it up, as happened to dogmush.

Does anyone know offhand how Kahr holds their sights in?

I am not willing to pay any hundred bucks for a sight tool, although I may cobble one up from the 1/4" steel plate I mentioned.

[charby]

I am not willing to pay any hundred bucks for a sight tool, although I may cobble one up from the 1/4" steel plate I mentioned.

How many $100's of $$ do you have in handguns?

[French G.]

How much heat for the Loctite?  Hair dryer level? Soldering gun level?  Blowtorch?   An RIA 1911 was the auto I tried to drift the sight on and gave up.  I haven't done anything with the Kahr CW9 yet, though, besides calculating the movement required.  I'm looking for general advice before bubba-ing it up, as happened to dogmush.

Does anyone know offhand how Kahr holds their sights in?

I am not willing to pay any hundred bucks for a sight tool, although I may cobble one up from the 1/4" steel plate I mentioned.

My experience with an MK40 and a K40 was that Kahr holds their sights in with dubious dovetail angles, crappy surface finish and general low end of dimensional tolerance. No adhesives were evident, but the sights were in there.

[HankB]

How much heat for the Loctite?  Hair dryer level?

From the Loctite website:

Loctite® Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F (260°C).

Hope they didn't use the Japanese product, roktite.  

[Pharmacology]

I would consistently shoot tight groups 2 or 3 inches to the left of the X,  until I figured out that I was using the very tip of my trigger finger.
A really good instructor showed me to use more of the pad, and my shooting has corrected.

FWIW, It might be faulty to assume that you guys are doing it right,  when the error happens no matter what gun you use.

[Hawkmoon]

How much heat for the Loctite?  Hair dryer level? Soldering gun level?  Blowtorch?   An RIA 1911 was the auto I tried to drift the sight on and gave up.

Soldering iron, or butane mini-torch. You don't need to melt the sight, just heat up the adhesive enough to make it cry "Uncle."

[230RN]

Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I'm going to try a dry (untinned) 300W soldering gun on it, probably this weekend.

Terry, 230RN

[lee n. field]

http://www.sightpusher.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Sight-Master-Pusher-Tool/dp/B00BD65Y4C

[230RN]

http://www.sightpusher.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Sight-Master-Pusher-Tool/dp/B00BD65Y4C

Taken into consideration, but thanks.

Terry, 230RN