Author Topic: The Dinosaur Wall  (Read 13592 times)

Fly320s

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2013, 10:24:49 AM »
Dinosaurs weren't killed by asteroids; they were killed by thread drift.  And a religion war.
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Ben

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2013, 10:26:45 AM »
Dinosaurs weren't killed by asteroids; they were killed by thread drift.  And a religion war.

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K Frame

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 12:06:35 PM »
"Not to mention millenia of cumulative translation/transcription errors and deliberate editing & rewriting. (GOD needs an EDITOR?)"

Then you've got fun things like documents that are apparently contemporaneous of the writings of the New Testament, but which differ in significant ways and which never made it into the Bible, either by accident or by purposeful omission.

Probably the best example of that is the Gospels of Thomas.

Fascinating reading, and which formed part of the back story for that awful Stigmata movie.
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Balog

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 12:17:13 PM »
The Bible is a combination of historical fact, oral tradition, legend, parable, and likely flat out fiction. The importance of the Bible is in its overarching lessons on faith and personal interactions with others and ourselves, not in the concept that every word is an absolute, irrevocable utterance from the mouth of God to various scribes.

That is what I believe. If that differs from your belief system, so be it.

Well, the Bible itself tends to disagree with that position. I'm not trying to argue you out of your position, but it does seem inappropriate to describe yourself as a "believer" or member of a religion when your take on it is "It's just a bunch of nice stories that tell us we should be nice to each other." Sort of like that lady heading up one of the mainline denominations (Methodists? Episcopals? I can't recall) who wasn't comfortable describing herself as a theist.  :facepalm: Now, if you don't believe in the actual existence of a God but like (what you believe to be) the overarching themes and messages of the religion then hey that's fine. But it's not truthful to claim to represent or be a part of the group that actually hold those views.
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 12:29:31 PM »
"Not to mention millenia of cumulative translation/transcription errors and deliberate editing & rewriting. (GOD needs an EDITOR?)"

Then you've got fun things like documents that are apparently contemporaneous of the writings of the New Testament, but which differ in significant ways and which never made it into the Bible, either by accident or by purposeful omission.

Probably the best example of that is the Gospels of Thomas.

Fascinating reading, and which formed part of the back story for that awful Stigmata movie.

א  בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Every time I try to mention that there are other Gospels then the 4, I get called a heretic or something worse. Then because I am Roman Catholic, my bible is wrong also because it came from the wrong ancient library and contains too many books compared to King James Version.
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Balog

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 12:33:28 PM »
Honest question: are you familiar with why the books that are in the Bible were chosen, and why the other "gospels" were excluded? And not via a Dan Brown book.
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 12:39:47 PM »
Honest question: are you familiar with why the books that are in the Bible were chosen, and why the other "gospels" were excluded? And not via a Dan Brown book.

I'm familiar with how the books of the Roman Catholic Bible were chosen.
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TommyGunn

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 12:51:28 PM »
Dinosaurs weren't killed by asteroids; they were killed by thread drift.  And a religion war.

Some died for lack of exercise .. .... [tinfoil]
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Tallpine

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »
Obviously, the dinosaurs fell off the wall  :P
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 01:05:33 PM »
"Not to mention millenia of cumulative translation/transcription errors and deliberate editing & rewriting. (GOD needs an EDITOR?)"

Then you've got fun things like documents that are apparently contemporaneous of the writings of the New Testament, but which differ in significant ways and which never made it into the Bible, either by accident or by purposeful omission.

Probably the best example of that is the Gospels of Thomas.

Fascinating reading, and which formed part of the back story for that awful Stigmata movie.

No wonder the others were not included.
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K Frame

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 01:24:16 PM »
Stigmata picked up on a claim that has been made throughout the years, that the early Christian church essentially buried the Gospels of Thomas because they would have the potential to significantly undercut the growing power of the church heirarchy.

True or not I don't think anyone will ever know, but when you read some of the material, it really points towards a self-directed relationship with God, not a church-directed interventional relationship.
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 03:03:24 PM »
Honest question: are you familiar with why the books that are in the Bible were chosen, and why the other "gospels" were excluded?

I am not, and I would like to learn.  Any pointers to links or references would be appreciated.
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 03:15:35 PM »
Stigmata picked up on a claim that has been made throughout the years, that the early Christian church essentially buried the Gospels of Thomas because they would have the potential to significantly undercut the growing power of the church heirarchy.

True or not I don't think anyone will ever know, but when you read some of the material, it really points towards a self-directed relationship with God, not a church-directed interventional relationship.

Jumping in here, but I don't think the books considered canon (even by the RCC) point to a church-directed relationship with God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Church is ordained by God, but the importance of being right with God *on your own* is pretty clearly taught. Churches are also taught...but not slavish obedience thereto. At least in my Bible  :P

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K Frame

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2013, 03:21:47 PM »
Honest question: are you familiar with why the books that are in the Bible were chosen, and why the other "gospels" were excluded? And not via a Dan Brown book.

It was a long and adaptive process over the span of a number of centuries. Not all religions have the exact same version of the Bible, either. Their faiths, for whatever reason, chose differently at different times.

The exact reasons why some were chosen, and others were not, are in many cases now lost to time. Others are recorded in church records.

In all cases, however, what we now call the Bible was chosen by men, based on their own belief systems and interpretations of how the various liturgical texts were relevant in their lives and in the lives of the members of their community.

This site discusses the selection process: http://www.biblica.com/bibles/faq/7/

I find this passage to be particularly interesting...

" Some of the churches were using books and letters in their services that were definitely spurious. Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent. Heretical movements were rising, each one choosing its own selected Scriptures, including such documents as the Gospel of Thomas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Epistle of Barnabas.

Gradually it became clear which works were truly genuine and which mixed truth with fantasy. By the end of the fourth century the canon was definitively settled and accepted."


Uhm... OK. I find that to be a particularly... interesting... statement.
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MechAg94

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2013, 03:30:41 PM »
Jumping in here, but I don't think the books considered canon (even by the RCC) point to a church-directed relationship with God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Church is ordained by God, but the importance of being right with God *on your own* is pretty clearly taught. Churches are also taught...but not slavish obedience thereto. At least in my Bible  :P


I would agree with the first. 

On the second, I was always taught that the local Church was called for, but the Religous Organizations set up to support local Churches are not. 
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MechAg94

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2013, 03:33:02 PM »
Dinosaurs weren't killed by asteroids; they were killed by thread drift.  And a religion war.
According to a Ren and Stimpy episode I saw one time, the dinasaurs died because they all Hiccuped, Sneezed, and Farted (or was that burped?) at the same time and exploded.  Of course, their tour guide at the museum later claimed credit for killing them all himself. 

Then there is Gary Larson sketch that blamed it all on cigarrettes. 
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K Frame

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 03:33:09 PM »
"Jumping in here, but I don't think the books considered canon (even by the RCC) point to a church-directed relationship with God."

You misunderstand me.

I'm not saying that the Bible says you need the church to direct your relationship with God, that is the position taken by the early Catholic Church and held through a lot of its history, and the Gospels of Thomas undermined that position.

As I said, I don't know whether that's true or not, but it is a valid POSSIBLE interpretation for why the Gospel of Thomas was excluded.

After its discovery, many biblical scholars argued that the Gospel was a forgery by an early separatist movement (first church schism?), while others have argued that it could be the earliest record of Jesus' teachings, taken before the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were recorded.

In any case, they present a very different picture of Jesus and his teachings.

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MechAg94

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 04:02:37 PM »
My understanding is that the early Catholic Church starting saying they knew better than anyone else in reaction to the spread of the Gnostic Gospels.  My pastor always said the Gnostic gospels were a bunch of cultish trash, but the Catholic Church made exactly the wrong decision and set up the genesis of all the problems (political and religious) that occured over the next 1000 or more years. 

I guess at some point, you have to read for yourself what you can and decide what makes consistent sense (in the right frame of mind at least). 
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2013, 05:36:02 PM »
Jumping in here, but I don't think the books considered canon (even by the RCC) point to a church-directed relationship with God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Church is ordained by God, but the importance of being right with God *on your own* is pretty clearly taught. Churches are also taught...but not slavish obedience thereto. At least in my Bible  :P

You obviously would not get along in the Orthodox Church  ;)
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2013, 05:45:23 PM »
Quote
The most spectacular track, however, is a 347 meters long line of prints belonging to a baby Tyrannosaurus Rex nicknamed “Johnny Walker” by researchers.
:laugh:
That's just glorious.

Regolith

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2013, 07:04:35 PM »
:laugh:
That's just glorious.

One of my sister's best friends had a baby boy a few months back. Their last name is Walker. My sister and I kept trying to convince her that she should name him Johnny. For some reason she wouldn't go for it. :(

We also tried to get her to name him "Luke Sky" but she didn't like that one either.  ;/
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2013, 11:18:25 PM »
א  בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Every time I try to mention that there are other Gospels then the 4, I get called a heretic or something worse. Then because I am Roman Catholic, my bible is wrong also because it came from the wrong ancient library and contains too many books compared to King James Version.


You should inform those people that the King James Version includes the Apocrypha, even if their personally-owned copies omit it (most do). Of course, the apocrypha doesn't include the alleged gospels. You are welcome to believe that the other "gospels" are legitimate. That doesn't mean others should agree with you. Doesn't make you a heretic, either, of course.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 12:51:32 AM by fistful »
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2013, 11:26:15 PM »
It doesn't help that many different branches (and even just individual churches) preach a "just believe what we tell you, and that our Bible is the absolute be-all end-all. No need to think for yourself". Tends to muddy the waters

Had a friend of my dad's tell me point blank that free will is the work of the Devil, and that questioning what is said in his copy of the Bible is rankest heresy. Same guy took the time at mom's funeral to tell me the preacher at the service "had it all wrong" (came VERY close to punching him there).

Remember that you have a LOT of people muddying the waters where theology is concerned. And not all of them are all that bright or virtuous
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2013, 11:41:39 PM »
It doesn't help that many different branches (and even just individual churches) preach a "just believe what we tell you, and that our Bible is the absolute be-all end-all. No need to think for yourself". Tends to muddy the waters


Yeah, but you have to warn people about the Catholic plot to put out all these "modern versions." What the Catholics are supposed to accomplish by this, I don't know, but I'm sure it's something.  [tinfoil]
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Re: The Dinosaur Wall
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 11:47:04 PM »

Yeah, but you have to warn people about the Catholic plot to put out all these "modern versions." What the Catholics are supposed to accomplish by this, I don't know, but I'm sure it's something.  [tinfoil]
Dude, you call it a 'papist plot.' That way you spit more to illustrate the urgency of the danger.