Beyond Brain Drain

[Perd Hapley]

You may have heard the term "brain drain" used to describe the phenomenon of the better minds or more educated people from an underdeveloped (third world) country going to America or other Western countries for greater opportunities.  I wonder if there's not a much larger phenomenon occurring, in which the "better sort" have been clustering in America for centuries, leaving the rest of the world to corrupt leaders and to citizens less vigorous, less enterprising or just more tolerant of poor government and poor social conditions.  

Of course, America's not the only place for the bold and adventurous; there's Australia, Canada, England, etc.  Nor am I saying that the other nations of the world are completely devoid of good people or good qualities, nationally.  

Watcha think?

[Monkeyleg]

Fistful, the "brain drain" you describe affects states in the US probably more than it does second or third-world countries.

Example: Wisconsin has one of the largest state-run university systems in the country. As a state budget item, it ranks near the top.
 
But studies have shown that an imprortionate balance of graduates leave WI for states that offer better jobs, salaries, and so on.

Let's look at India's Institute of Technology, the equivalent of our MIT.

IIT doesn't have to draw from hundreds, or even millions, of applications. It draws from hundreds of millions, and only accepts the best. At that, IIT can afford to pick and choose.

On a personal and purely anecdotal level, though, I've found that US companies who bring stateside graduates from IIT tend to discard them quickly when the jobs run out. Maybe it's a cultural thing, or maybe it's merely perception: do you want your tech support person to be able to speak English?

"I wonder if there's not a much larger phenomenon occurring, in which the "better sort" have been clustering in America for centuries, leaving the rest of the world to corrupt leaders and to citizens less vigorous, less enterprising or just more tolerant of poor government and poor social conditions."

But, to wonder about "clustering" better sorts of people here for centuries: that can only imply one of two things:

That, for centuries, individuals, families, or maybe even entire even entire monarchies have said, "hey, man, let's get our  asses, our money, our women, and our children over to the USA as soon as possible. I heard that there was this Hitler dude coming in like 200 years, so let's get  our butts out now."

Or that, through some secret plot, the USA has been actively recruiting entrepeneurs since the founding of our country.

Actually, Fistful, I think that those who have power and influence in their countries gain by staying there. And that, those who come here, come here with a hope and a dream that cannot be fulfilled in their home countries, because they are without political power.

[Azrael256]

It's absolutely true that we "brain drain" other countries, but it happens in spasms.  We drained Europe pretty thoroughly prior to WWII.  Then we finished draining Germany afterward.  Before the war, Germany was, without a doubt, the cultural and scientific center of the world.  The mass migration of writers, philosophers, artists, and scientists to the US is refered to as "Hitlers Gift."  I don't doubt that we would have drained Russia and China if there had been a practical way to do it before communism sealed them off.

I don't think, however, we siphon off the "better sort" to the detriment of other countries.  I think other countries tend to drive them off.  When the Panzers start rolling through the streets, New York (or New Mexico, as it happens) starts to look pretty darned attractive, and the "better sort" usually have the resources to make the move.

We've adopted far, far more ordinary folk from all over the world who never made a singularly spectacular contribution to the world, but who lived their lives and did their part to keep the country going.  We also got (and continue to get) our share of scum.  The difference is that the "better sort" tend to arrive with much more fanfare.

[Iain]

I'd dispute Azrael's claim that Europe is 'drained', there are a very high proportion of authors, scientists and others of international repute who still live on this continent. It'd be pretty silly to get into some sort of naming contest though, so I won't. I do however agree with him that a country tends to drive off some of these people as much as other countries attract them. I met an academic from Sweden who told me that his paycheck is much lower at the British university he now works for, but his take home pay, and his disposable income, are much higher.

Also, I'm not a fan of this theory, that seems to be popular amongst some, that this has any long term genetic effect. Brilliant, liberty-minded people have been born into generations of poverty and oppression.

You could try to instigate a reverse brain drain. It seems that Fred Phelps and his lot hate Sweden even more than the US. Encourage them to move there.

[Perd Hapley]

It seems that Fred Phelps and his lot hate Sweden even more than the US. Encourage them to move there.

Wow.  In a perverse way, that makes sense.

[The Rabbi]

I'll echo Azrael's assertion about Germany.  In the 1920s they had the top mathematicians, scientists, etc.  Since the war, so people tell me, they have produced hardly any mathematicians of note.
If one looks at almost any academic or scientific field here for the last 60 years one sees the influence of many many immigrants and refugees.  That has to translate into more money/better standard of living somewhere along the line.
People respond to incentives.  If the US remains relatively low-tax and entrepreneur-oriented (and I say relatively) then we will continue to attract talent.

[Azrael256]

I'd dispute Azrael's claim that Europe is 'drained'

Whoa, there!  I spoke in the past tense.  Europe was drained.  Western Europe's scientific and cultural communities experienced a major turnaround as soon as the next generation came of age.  This effect only lasts as long as it takes to get another generation of scientists, writers, philosophers, etc. up to speed.  It has been (and will continue to be) a long road for Eastern Europe because the Soviet Union sucked the life right out of... well, pretty much everything that didn't directly involve nuking the US.  Germany, as a whole, has only had maybe ten good years to work with since communism.  They had to start dealing with reintegrating the formerly captive population just as the efforts of their postwar generation were really starting to pay off.  

I'm not a fan of this theory, that seems to be popular amongst some, that this has any long term genetic effect

Agreed.  IMO, the existence of brilliant minds is distributed pretty evenly, but the actual flowering of a brilliant mind is dependent on the political and social environment.  It's much easier for a brilliant Westerner to make a great contribution than it is for people in economically depressed or governmentally oppressed countries.  I don't think we're draining them at all because it's nearly impossible to identify the Einstein-class minds in Sierra Leone or North Korea.

[Stand_watie]

Normally not a huge fan of +1'ing, but +1 to both of Azrael's posts.

I'll add another layer to the concept. America very free-market-capitalist amongst wealthy nations, and I'd say our lack of regulation compared to others (although we're catching up fast by golly) creates a 'small entrepeneur' drain as well.

[Perd Hapley]

Simian Appendage,

Rush Limbaugh from time to time observes that businesses and individuals are fleeing the Blue states for the lower taxes and looser regulation of the Red states.  Of course, I think there are additional reasons why people might be going Red.  I wonder if this is the sort of thing you're talking about.  Is Wisconson Blue?  Do the WI stats account for students who have come from other parts of the country or the world?  Surely, we wouldn't expect such people to stay in Wisconson?

I wonder why the IIT grads are let go so fast.  Maybe they want to go back.  Maybe their foreign extraction limits their potential for customer service slots.  Perhaps they're just not as good as the graduates of other schools.

But, to wonder about "clustering" better sorts of people here for centuries: that can only imply one of two things:

That, for centuries, individuals, families, or maybe even entire even entire monarchies have said, "hey, man, let's get our  asses, our money, our women, and our children over to the USA as soon as possible. I heard that there was this Hitler dude coming in like 200 years, so let's get  our butts out now."

Or that, through some secret plot, the USA has been actively recruiting entrepeneurs since the founding of our country.

Actually, Fistful, I think that those who have power and influence in their countries gain by staying there. And that, those who come here, come here with a hope and a dream that cannot be fulfilled in their home countries, because they are without political power.

The last paragraph I agree with.  As for those first three, you must have misunderstood.  I'm just talking about how individuals immigrate for the better opportunities, and that they tend to be those more willing to take risks to better their lot, or those less satisfied with the inferior political situation and living conditions in the old country.  Nothing that hasn't been observed many times.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't think, however, we siphon off the "better sort" to the detriment of other countries.  I think other countries tend to drive them off.

What's the difference?  America is a better place to live, and has been for centuries.  There's an attraction to living here, and a repulsion from poverty, persecution and limited opportunity elsewhere.  So, it works both ways.  

It seems to me that America has been improved by many of her immigrants (including the slave population, and their descendants that have made this a better country).  I think we set an example for the world that encourages improvement overseas, but that is hindered because so many good people are coming here.  

the "better sort" usually have the resources to make the move.

We've adopted far, far more ordinary folk from all over the world who never made a singularly spectacular contribution to the world, but who lived their lives and did their part to keep the country going.  We also got (and continue to get) our share of scum.  The difference is that the "better sort" tend to arrive with much more fanfare.

I take full responsibility for confusing the issue here, but when I say "better sort," I'm talking about a natural aristocracy - not the wealthy or privileged.  As I described them above, "they tend to be those more willing to take risks to better their lot, or those less satisfied with the inferior political situation and living conditions in the old country."  

What fanfare do you speak of, by the way?

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not a fan of this theory, that seems to be popular amongst some, that this has any long term genetic effect. Brilliant, liberty-minded people have been born into generations of poverty and oppression.

Agreed, but when the liberty-minded people keep moving over here, over the centuries, wouldn't that have some effect?  

You could try to instigate a reverse brain drain. It seems that Fred Phelps and his lot hate Sweden even more than the US. Encourage them to move there.

Strangely enough, this reminds me of Alec Baldwin's promise to leave the US if Bush was elected.  Thank goodness he was persuaded to remain.    But in all seriousness, maybe we should encourage the left to emigrate.  Wouldn't work of course, but it would make a point and be a lot of fun.  Of course, that would be portrayed as some evil, "How dare you question my patriotism!?" thing.  At least we got Shania Twain to move to Switzerland, though.  Good riddance.  How about immediate deportation for all who pretend to sing country music?

[Iain]

What's the difference?  America is a better place to live, and has been for centuries.

There is a difference, I commented on the Swedish academic of my acquaintance. I don't imagine that all that many of you would think of Britain as a particularly attractive place to live, but he found it to be more attractive than Sweden. Although he did live in Oxford, and the beer is so much cheaper here than than in Sweden...

Dunno about persuading the left to leave America. Plenty of folks on both sides seem to be shouting the Southpark inspired 'if you don't like America you can just geeettt ouuttt' line at each other. Doesn't seem to be working for either of them.

[Art Eatman]

The brain-drain thing is well codified.

I haven't kept track in the last dozen years or so, but a high percentage of advanced degree kids in the UTx computer science department were from India.  All during the 1970s and 1980s, of those receiving the PhD, NONE went back to India.

There are more non-native students in the hard sciences in our Universities than there are kids who were born here.  Most natives major in law, bus-ad and patty-cake, the "dumbed down" curricula.

A marine engineer buddy of mine who visited over the weekend commented about an engineering firm in Houston:  Of some 250 engineers on staff, there's one white guy and one black guy.

Generally, any emigre is smart enough to figure out where he'll be better off, whether it's political freedom, educational opportunity or business opportunity.  Most emigres are smarter than the average run of the mill IQ crowd.  Like I say, codified via numerous studies.  Search through sociology stuff.

Art