Author Topic: Time to screw over the vets again.  (Read 7555 times)

RoadKingLarry

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Time to screw over the vets again.
« on: December 17, 2013, 10:35:59 PM »
Time to *expletive deleted* the military again!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/17/senate-gop-fails-in-final-bid-to-restore-military-pension-cuts-to-budget-bill/

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dogmush

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 12:32:46 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army


I'd bet the OIF/OEF vet's I know won't stand there and get gassed.

Balog

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 12:36:44 AM »
On the one hand, this is a "cut" in the Democrat sense of being a smaller than expected COLA increase. On the other, when so many hundreds of billions are wasted (including for DoD pork buying. "We need to stockpile 10, 000 Chauchaut bolts in case we need to resupply Free French resistance fighters scavenging from museums, and wouldn't you know it Big Bob's House of Chauchaut Parts in in my district and gave my campaign $250,000...") that doing anything to vet compensation is pretty goddamn abhorrent.
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French G.

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 05:45:18 AM »
I retire from the Naval Reserve in 2.5 years. I fully expect that in 2035 when I turn 60 I will get $0/month vs. the $3500 I project now with retirement calculators. I just don't see how the government can pay the bills. So I'm a little disappointed in the many vets I know wheeling out the Ryan is dead to them rhetoric. Perhaps the guy is smart enough to see something has to be done and tried a modest camel's nose of a COLA decrease. Surely he knows the political risk of going after the military.

Honestly, it's a drop in the bucket. They want to hugely cut retirement they need to re-offer 15 year retirement at the reduced 40% rate. Transition all service members under 6 years of service to a 401K(TSP) based retirement. Give the military a special IRS deal to ignore contribution caps for catch-ups.  Of course do the same for civil service, bask in the glow of pain from that one. But then of course we need privatized social security, etc.

I get the distinction between earned and unearned benefits. To me, it really doesn't matter. If we're going to play a big old national sized V card all the time we are no better than union slugs destroying Seattle Boeing, Obama phone gimmegimmes, or stupid ass old geezers who do whatever the AARP tells them to. I'm sick of too dumb to think for ourselves block constituencies. There is a balance between veteran hate or apathy of the Vietnam or Tommy era and the current bootlicking leg tingling veteran adulation of today. We don't automatically win at life just because we signed up a long time ago. And this isn't the Bonus Army, not even close. 
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

dogmush

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 06:38:35 AM »
I get the distinction between earned and unearned benefits. To me, it really doesn't matter. If we're going to play a big old national sized V card all the time we are no better than union slugs destroying Seattle Boeing, Obama phone gimmegimmes, or stupid ass old geezers who do whatever the AARP tells them to. I'm sick of too dumb to think for ourselves block constituencies. There is a balance between veteran hate or apathy of the Vietnam or Tommy era and the current bootlicking leg tingling veteran adulation of today. We don't automatically win at life just because we signed up a long time ago. And this isn't the Bonus Army, not even close. 

That's what I get for posting from a tablet and before coffee, I didn't communicate well.  What I was trying to get at with the Bonus Army link is that there are plenty of people in the military now that hew to the "Gimme Fee Stuff" religion currently in vogue.  I doubt a cut in COLA will be enough to trigger it, but a Bonus Army/Gimme my stuff vet march is as likely as any other civil unrest, but better trained and equipped.

I also agree that it's tiresome to be trotted out as a group every time the R's want to show the D's as mean.  Yes, Veteran's were promised certain benefits, and plenty of folks including myself are counting on those payments as our retirement.  But so were the rank and file at Enron.  If there's no money, there's no money.  And promised payments do me no good if they trigger inflation.

There's a small voice in the back of my mind these days however, that looks at government spending, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth at any mention of curtailing it from these overgrown, entitled brats and whispers "*expletive deleted*ck it, I got food and ammo.  Let it all burn down."  That voice is a little self destructive.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 09:15:03 AM »
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But so were the rank and file at Enron

Apples and oranges.
At least a few of the people that were responsible for the Enron debacle went to jail.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 09:25:06 AM »
Maybe the Army and the Free $#!+ Army can meet in the streets and duke it out over who gets pork from the tax teat.

Really doesn't matter who wins that though, because neither of them (nor both combined) can defeat the army of creditors and accountants that owns this country's debt.
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Devonai

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 09:31:28 AM »
Not with that attitude!

I think I'll write a novel about a man whose anarchistic, anti-capitalist alter ego hatches a plan to destroy several financial institutions at once and wipe out a sizable amount of debt.
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makattak

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 09:32:18 AM »
Maybe the Army and the Free $#!+ Army can meet in the streets and duke it out over who gets pork from the tax teat.

I have nothing to add except that metaphors ought not to be mixed that badly. <shudder>
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MechAg94

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 09:39:51 AM »
Apples and oranges.
At least a few of the people that were responsible for the Enron debacle went to jail.
True.  My current boss is one of the people who would be retired early right now if it wasn't for losing all his savings in that mess.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 09:49:03 AM »
Quote
I get the distinction between earned and unearned benefits. To me, it really doesn't matter. If we're going to play a big old national sized V card all the time we are no better than union slugs destroying Seattle Boeing, Obama phone gimmegimmes, or stupid ass old geezers who do whatever the AARP tells them to. I'm sick of too dumb to think for ourselves block constituencies. There is a balance between veteran hate or apathy of the Vietnam or Tommy era and the current bootlicking leg tingling veteran adulation of today. We don't automatically win at life just because we signed up a long time ago. And this isn't the Bonus Army, not even close.  

French G, I love this paragraph.  It's beautiful.  Thank you for posting it.

In certain roles, I see how it is in the nation's best interest to have competitive career benefits to private life.  High ranking command officers, weapons researchers (though that is mostly privatized now), nuclear reactor engineers and technicians, people who design and maintain complicated machinery and sophisticated computer networks, masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors.  Gotta retain them, so lifelong employment and retirement perks makes sense.

But for PFC Skippy you guys bring up so frequently?  Eff, no!  For that matter, any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role.  I don't think it's in a person's best interest to remain employed by the armed forces in a lifelong pursuit of any of those roles.  It's certainly not in the nation's best interest to pay retirement benefits to people who put in 20 years in these positions.  It's hardly irreplaceable talent.  You may think that's callous, but history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers.

That doesn't mean that guys who get injured in the line of duty (or families of those who die in service) shouldn't be taken care of.  Of course they should.  

But the military shouldn't be a means of an easy retirement.

And it absolutely shouldn't be manipulated into a block constituency like it has been.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 10:02:14 AM »
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fighter-jockey

It costs a lot of money to train a pilot. It is in the .gov's best interest to keep those people in for a long career vs. spending all that money on training and then shoving them out after a few years so they can go fly an airliner...

Combat roles are the same way. Good leaders are those with experience.

 Now, it shouldn't be easy to fail upwards and stay in for 20-30 years spreading your stupid, but competent, skilled people should be retained as much as possible. You don't throw away a valuable employee that performs well...



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Ben

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 10:12:21 AM »
It costs a lot of money to train a pilot. It is in the .gov's best interest to keep those people in for a long career vs. spending all that money on training and then shoving them out after a few years so they can go fly an airliner...

Combat roles are the same way. Good leaders are those with experience.

 Now, it shouldn't be easy to fail upwards and stay in for 20-30 years spreading your stupid, but competent, skilled people should be retained as much as possible. You don't throw away a valuable employee that performs well...


Yeah, shoving pilots out the door would be kinda ridiculous after you spend millions training one. They're having enough trouble keeping pilots.
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Tallpine

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 10:53:59 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army


I'd bet the OIF/OEF vet's I know won't stand there and get gassed.

There's always a silver lining  ;)
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Fitz

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2013, 11:22:31 AM »
raise the standards, cut the morons, and you WONT be rewarding idiots who punch a ticket for 20 years.


The military is too large.

However, cutting pensions and whatnot will get rid of the GOOD ones, who will go on to greener pastures.

Training combat leaders is expensive.


Better to cut the *expletive deleted*it out of the dirtbags. IMHO
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Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2013, 11:39:06 AM »
raise the standards, cut the morons, and you WONT be rewarding idiots who punch a ticket for 20 years.


The military is too large.

However, cutting pensions and whatnot will get rid of the GOOD ones, who will go on to greener pastures.

Training combat leaders is expensive.


Better to cut the *expletive deleted* out of the dirtbags. IMHO

Fitz has the right idea. Unfortunately never happen, because it makes far too much sense.

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Balog

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 12:38:55 PM »
That's the problem with all spending cuts. They target the most valuable people but God forbid you should reduce Lashonda's Obamaphone minutes, or Congressman Greasy's vote buying pork spending.
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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 02:42:34 PM »
raise the standards, cut the morons, and you WONT be rewarding idiots who punch a ticket for 20 years.

The military is too large.

However, cutting pensions and whatnot will get rid of the GOOD ones, who will go on to greener pastures.

Training combat leaders is expensive.

Better to cut the *expletive deleted* out of the dirtbags. IMHO

Lots to agree with here.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 03:22:19 PM »
It's cyclical, part of the "peace dividend" after each period of warmongering ends.

USAF is contemplating the same 15 year early retirement plan they offered us back in 2000-2001.

The more things change...

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Scout26

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 04:27:53 PM »
French G, I love this paragraph.  It's beautiful.  Thank you for posting it.

In certain roles, I see how it is in the nation's best interest to have competitive career benefits to private life.  High ranking command officers, weapons researchers (though that is mostly privatized now), nuclear reactor engineers and technicians, people who design and maintain complicated machinery and sophisticated computer networks, masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors.  Gotta retain them, so lifelong employment and retirement perks makes sense.

But for PFC Skippy you guys bring up so frequently?  Eff, no!  For that matter, any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role.  I don't think it's in a person's best interest to remain employed by the armed forces in a lifelong pursuit of any of those roles.  It's certainly not in the nation's best interest to pay retirement benefits to people who put in 20 years in these positions.  It's hardly irreplaceable talent.  You may think that's callous, but history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers.

That doesn't mean that guys who get injured in the line of duty (or families of those who die in service) shouldn't be taken care of.  Of course they should.  

But the military shouldn't be a means of an easy retirement.

And it absolutely shouldn't be manipulated into a block constituency like it has been.

There's so much fail in this that it's hard to begin.

You say:
Quote
people who design and maintain complicated machinery and sophisticated computer networks, masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors.  Gotta retain them, so lifelong employment and retirement perks makes sense.

But for PFC Skippy you guys bring up so frequently?  Eff, no!  For that matter, any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role.  I don't think it's in a person's best interest to remain employed by the armed forces in a lifelong pursuit of any of those roles.

Let's start with the basics shall we?  It's the guys with 12, 15, 20+ years experience that teach "the next batch of warriors".  They also teach the guys that sustain and maintain that complicated equipment and machinery on how to do it.  And let's go point by point.

Infantry- Definitely a young man's game.  The wear and tear on the body is phenomenal even on a Mech Infantry grunt.  Moreso, should you choose to fall out of planes and/or helicopters, go ranger, or become a snake eater. 

Combat- Humping 155 rounds, breaking track, or building a bridge also puts great wear on the body.  Those are also young man's jobs.

Bureaucratic support-  Do mean things like beans and bullets or HR functions?  Because everyone I know wants the newest soldier to be their unit's clerk and to process their evals, orders and awards.   Can't have any experienced folks doing those jobs. 

MP- No, it's not writing traffic tickets on post.   Guess who had the second highest casualty rate in Iraq?   Yeah, the guys doing convoy escorts and finding IED's with their vehicles.     

Janitorial-  Don't know of any service that has a "Janitorial" MOS.  Yes, all soldiers are expected to learn how to keep themselves and the living areas clean.  Just like you have to keep your house clean, just maybe not to the same standards as the First Sergeant insists upon.

Fighter jockey- I good friend of mine is former Air Force.  He guesstimated the USAF spent over $1million on him before he even touched an airplane.  Probably another $2-3 million teaching him to fly and another million or so how to fight.  So yeah, no need to to retain that investment.

Cooks- Yes, because everyone just wants the pimplely faced kid to all the cooking for 120+ people in your unit.  I mean they've got the recipe cards and bunch of pots and pans and an MKT, how hard can it be?

etc-  Not sure who the etcera would be.  You pretty much said "Eff, No" to all the Combat Arms, Combat Support and Combat Service Support jobs.  Which is every job in the Military.

Is that how your company does it?  No experienced people allowed? 


Also it's "Up or Out" in the military.  Last I checked you have to make E-6 or O-4 to make it to twenty years.  Not too many PFC's make it past 7 or 8 without getting booted.  None-select twice for Major (at about years 8-12) and "bu-bye".  You don't get any retirement.   The only PFC's that get retirement are those that are medically retired.  Due to illness (like Agent Orange or Gulf War Syndrome), injury or wounds.

Ask anyone who served if the military is an easy retirement.  It's not.  And if anything, they should make it 25 years to get full pension.   Although, they will probably offer 15yr 40% like they did in the 90's to cut the numbers. 


There are also a couple of other jobs that I have no problem with having a defined benefit plan and retirement after X years. 

Firefighter-  I want some young guys hauling my carcass out of my burning house, not some old dude that I'll have to do CPR upon.   Firefighting is another youngman's game.  Retirement with pension after 25 years.*

Police-  Same as above.  I want young legs hoofing it after criminals.  Again, retirement with pension after 25 years.*

All other civil service jobs# need to go to a defined contribution/401k plan.  Now.


But do I understand their anger and resentment.  Yes.  They were promised you do 20, we will pay you 50% of what you retire at.  For the rest of your life.

Can we and should make cuts?  Yes.  Everyone across the board.  If they would have cut welfare, SS, SSDI, Civil Service Pensions, Congressional Pensions, etc.  Then  no one could have said "Boo", but when some sacred cows are spared, the ones selected will complain, and rightfully so.




*- One current problem, at least here in Illinois is the double and sometimes triple dipping in pensions.  For example:  I know a guy who worked for 20+ years as firefighter and retired with a full pension.  He then went to work for a different municipality as a fire inspector for 10 or 12 years, and retired from that job with another full pension.  Utter Bull Cookies.  You get one Civil Service pension.  If you begin a second career after you retire from public service then you can only do the 401k option.     

#- the ones remaining.  Every single level of .gov needs to cut 20% of their payroll this year, then 10% a year for the next five years.  We'll re-evaluate and decide how much the cuts should be every year after that.
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dm1333

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 07:32:56 PM »
French G, I love this paragraph.  It's beautiful.  Thank you for posting it.

In certain roles, I see how it is in the nation's best interest to have competitive career benefits to private life.  High ranking command officers, weapons researchers (though that is mostly privatized now), nuclear reactor engineers and technicians, people who design and maintain complicated machinery and sophisticated computer networks, masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors.  Gotta retain them, so lifelong employment and retirement perks makes sense.

But for PFC Skippy you guys bring up so frequently?  Eff, no!  For that matter, any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role.  I don't think it's in a person's best interest to remain employed by the armed forces in a lifelong pursuit of any of those roles.  It's certainly not in the nation's best interest to pay retirement benefits to people who put in 20 years in these positions.  It's hardly irreplaceable talent.  You may think that's callous, but history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers.

That doesn't mean that guys who get injured in the line of duty (or families of those who die in service) shouldn't be taken care of.  Of course they should.  

But the military shouldn't be a means of an easy retirement.

And it absolutely shouldn't be manipulated into a block constituency like it has been.

Your statement isn't callous, it is ignorant.  Any idiot can buy a boat and drive it.  I spent 9 months learning the basics of driving a lifeboat.  After getting certified I spent 3 more years certifying as a Surfman.  Most of that time was in La Push, WA driving boats in some of the shittiest weather imaginable.  During one winter I didn't have a single SAR case that started after 1600 but ended before 2400.  Several of those cases ran over 24 hours and the whole crew was hypothermic by the time we got back. 

I spent a total of 16 years at west coast life boat stations driving lifeboats in the surf and training others to do the same.  You have no effing clue of what "hardly irreplaceable talent" is, or isn't, when it comes to the military.  I would guarantee infantry skills are just like life boat driving skills.  Easy when you are on the outside looking in, and not so easy to do well under stress at night when you are cold, tired and scared shitless.
Quote
history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers

Really?  Why don't you back up this asinine statement with some proof!

Quote
masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors
   :facepalm: :facepalm:

On the one hand you want to keep the people who can train others to fight, but you want to get rid of the infantryman because those skills are hardly irreplaceable and it isn't in the country's best interest to retain them for a 20 year career?  Who the hell do you think has the skills to train infantry?  The guy who has been doing it 20 or more years or the guy who graduated from infantry AIT last year?   :facepalm:

Gewehr98

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 08:06:59 PM »
Alright, folks, we can discuss the topic at hand without getting personal, ok? 
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Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 08:14:09 PM »
Quote
Easy when you are on the outside looking in,

You know a hell of a lot of skills and jobs look easy from the outsiders point of view but few jobs or tasks are as simple as that...

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 08:15:59 PM »
Quote
history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers

I don't agree with any of his other assertions,  but this one is true.

Examples (limited to the past century)

WW1
WW2
Korea

If you don't want/need professionalism,  it's pretty easy to hand every able bodied peasant a rifle and reconstitute your forces.  

I won't even bring up the current admin/climate chasing off solid, experienced NCOs that are just tired of the bullshit,  and we're all worse off for it.

Devonai

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 08:35:09 PM »
Last I checked you have to make E-6 or O-4 to make it to twenty years.


Just FYI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Year_Tenure
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