Author Topic: Time to screw over the vets again.  (Read 7554 times)

Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 08:44:43 PM »
Quote
If you don't want/need professionalism,  it's pretty easy to hand every able bodied peasant a rifle and reconstitute your forces.   

Yes, very easy to do so if you care nothing about the casualties taken by green recruits, which was a common attitude in the past. Today a first world country's enlisted soldier's life tends to be regarded much more highly, and this is a good thing.
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dm1333

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 08:53:33 PM »
The CG HYT PGP's are changing. 

http://www.uscg.mil/epm/HYT/ALCOAST%20171_13.pdf

The 20 year PGP for E4 and below is very misleading.  Nobody is being allowed to stay in for 20 years as an E4 or below.  Anybody who starts to stagnate like that end up on performance probation and finds their way back to the civilian world.

edit:  How do I know this?  I've booted a number of them myself. 

Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 08:57:41 PM »
I believe the army's RCP for e4 is 10 years
Fitz

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dm1333

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 09:11:27 PM »
What pisses me off the most about this whole deal is that promises to the military were broken again.  Why doesn't this change to COLA also apply to federal employees who are currently working for .gov?  I keep hearing that personnel costs are spiraling out of control.  Flag officers have been harping on this lately.  The Navy Times blew a hole in that argument with this article.

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20131124/BENEFITS02/311240019/Top-brass-claims-personnel-costs-swamping-DoD-budget-figures-say-otherwise


The new refrain is that this article doesn't count things like subsidized child care, commissaries, gyms, etc!

Well, cut that crap out then.  Why not charge people in government housing for their utilities? 

I would bet plenty of service men and women would volunteer to take a pay cut or pay freeze, but don't break your word to us.  The vast majority of us that made this a career didn't do it for the easy retirement check.

Bigjake

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 09:26:41 PM »
Yes, very easy to do so if you care nothing about the casualties taken by green recruits, which was a common attitude in the past. Today a first world country's enlisted soldier's life tends to be regarded much more highly, and this is a good thing.

No *expletive deleted*it.  I was pointing out historical evidence of AZ's original point. 

As an enlisted Marine,  in a first world military,  I've got a fair idea of how that works  ;/

Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 09:27:34 PM »
No *expletive deleted*.  I was pointing out historical evidence of AZ's original point. 

As an enlisted Marine,  in a first world military,  I've got a fair idea of how that works  ;/

No need to roll your eyes at me man I was agreeing with you. Jesus.

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roo_ster

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Re: Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 09:40:08 PM »
I feel like I ought to post something indignant.  Do not want to be left out.
Regards,

roo_ster

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 09:46:43 PM »
Quote
But the military shouldn't be a means of an easy retirement

I've heard that from many people that have never worn the uniform.
Few jobs in the military can really be described as easy.

I don't consider what I did to have been terribly hard or particularly dangerous but not everyone gets a kick out of spend 80-90 days at a time submerged in a steel tube more or less entirely cut off from the rest of the world. Of course we weren't always on extended deployments. Most of the time we were on "weekly ops", at sea for 2-7 weeks at a time involved in training exercises, NATO ops, reactor inspections, weapons inspections and the like.
In port time of course allowed for upkeep, repair and maintenance of equipment, training, duty days, stores loads etc etc etc... Oh and there were always a few days to be spent with family, needs of the Navy permitting of course. The last 3 years on a boat we were in port less than 9 months total, So average something less than 3 months a year at home.

My first tour on a boat came after about 18 months of electronics training after basic. Then another year learning my job on the boat. It takes about a year to "qualify" submarines then the learning starts, you either earn your dolphns or your surface fleet bound.  Then the rest of the first enlistment getting good at the job and starting to train the guys coming in behind.

Of course not all of my 12 years in the Navy were at sea. I spent almost 4 years as an instructor at Sub School in Groton teaching an advanced ESM system.
Yeah shore duty. Of course the CO of Sub School didn't think shore duty should be any kind of break and thought it should be considered an arduous duty assignment and operated accordingly.
Let us not forget that the military gets 30 days vacation a year right off the bat. Of course that includes weekends and holidays if your leave period included those days. And, unless you were on PCS orders getting more than 14 days leave at a time was out of the question.

Easy? not really.

I only stayed 12 years and decided to go elsewhere. So I don't have a dog in the fight as to the cuts in COLA or any other retirement benefits.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Bigjake

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 10:23:09 PM »
No need to roll your eyes at me man I was agreeing with you. Jesus.



My bad then.  I mistook your last post for criticism,  in which case,  didn't mean to be rude.

Phantom Warrior

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 10:28:44 PM »
The new refrain is that this article doesn't count things like subsidized child care, commissaries, gyms, etc!

Well, cut that crap out then.  Why not charge people in government housing for their utilities? 

I would bet plenty of service men and women would volunteer to take a pay cut or pay freeze, but don't break your word to us.  The vast majority of us that made this a career didn't do it for the easy retirement check.

Are you sure?  As a recent vet I'm tapped into a fair number of current and active military.  Very few are interested in seeing any benefits go away.  Witness the recent furor over reducing tuition assistance.  I think French G made some good points in his first post.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 11:31:29 PM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?
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Gewehr98

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 11:38:23 PM »
Holy sheep dip, AZRH44!

That's very low - "30 pieces of silver". 

WTF?

We didn't do it to get rich, just look at the DoD pay scales.

Nor did we do it for nothing.  We might be stupid, but not that dumb.

It was a wage, and a promise. 

To quote Nazareth - Don't Judas me. 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 11:39:28 PM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?

Wow, just wow...

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Balog

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2013, 01:56:30 AM »
So to recap, members of the .mil are equivalent to the most infamous traitor in all of history, and wanting the fed.gov to keep the terms of their contract is equivalent to betraying the Son of God. Gotcha.  :rofl: I think this thread has gone full retard now.

As an aside, are they also cutting the COLA for non-.mil federal retirees? It's funny how the side that says we need to cut $ to the .mil because everyone has to share the burden isn't willing to cut pay for the fcking bureaucrats.
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Balog

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 02:11:10 AM »
Speaking purely for the grunts here, but a security contractor gig pays what, couple hundred thousand for a total of one year worked in two calendar? Junior enlisted pull down less than minimum wage. Yeah, those bastards are just in it for the money. How dare they not offer to destroy their lives for free?

And I think that if all fed.gov employees took a hit instead of just the .mil then they'd bitch (because bitching is a soldier/Marines etc's God given right!  :lol: ) but they'd overall be ok with it. But when some fat communist who's pulling down six figures as the inner city diversity expert on community organizing relations at HHS doesn't get their pay and benefits cut? Fck that. 
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

French G.

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 05:09:53 AM »
Maybe the Army and the Free $#!+ Army can meet in the streets and duke it out over who gets pork from the tax teat.

Really doesn't matter who wins that though, because neither of them (nor both combined) can defeat the army of creditors and accountants that owns this country's debt.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking for pork, I did mention a distinction between earned and un-earned. I was trying to point out that if every vet goes all allahMcscreamingbeard if anyone even mentions tampering with military pension then it is just one more third rail riding us to financial ruin. there needs to be more adult debate where the legislator doesn't expect the tar and feathers and the vets don't expect a royal shaft. Maybe a COLA freeze is wrong, unless across the board in all federal areas. But there needs to be a discussion about how to reform military pension to keep the promises made and not bankrupt the country. I was not promised a specific COLA in any contract, so some of the really ragey vets I've encountered need to breathe a little.  I still say walk it towards 401K only for new recruits and turn the 15 year and 40% spigot on.

French G, I love this paragraph.  It's beautiful.  Thank you for posting it.

In certain roles, I see how it is in the nation's best interest to have competitive career benefits to private life.  High ranking command officers, weapons researchers (though that is mostly privatized now), nuclear reactor engineers and technicians, people who design and maintain complicated machinery and sophisticated computer networks, masters of the skills of warcraft who teach those skills to the next batch of warriors.  Gotta retain them, so lifelong employment and retirement perks makes sense.

But for PFC Skippy you guys bring up so frequently?  Eff, no!  For that matter, any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role.  I don't think it's in a person's best interest to remain employed by the armed forces in a lifelong pursuit of any of those roles.  It's certainly not in the nation's best interest to pay retirement benefits to people who put in 20 years in these positions.  It's hardly irreplaceable talent.  You may think that's callous, but history shows that imperial-sized armies are quite easy to assemble and replace fallen soldiers.

That doesn't mean that guys who get injured in the line of duty (or families of those who die in service) shouldn't be taken care of.  Of course they should. 

But the military shouldn't be a means of an easy retirement.

And it absolutely shouldn't be manipulated into a block constituency like it has been.

Most of this has been picked apart, PFC Skippy got high year tenured out long ago. Personally I have a real issue with the up or out mentality. Perhaps it's because I've been an E-6 since 14 Dec 1999.  =D There are great O-3s and O-4s that drive airplanes very well and should be retained for 20 but will be a soup sandwich once they are forced up and put in charge of a squadron. When I came in E-5s could retire in the Navy, I saw some really competent techs make it that far, would have been bad a paygrade up. Sure some crapballs slid to 20, but that's their leader's fault for not telling it like it is. There's a block on the evaluation that says "Not recommended for retention." Needs to be used.
       Me, I would have been a very good E-7 to E-8, I don't have the charming personality to be an effective E-9, need to be a real people person in my opinion to be the senior enlisted leader in a command. I punched on my career in '08 at 14 years of active duty. Conventional wisdom is I was nuts, 6 years to retirement. That was my only reason to stay and it really weighed on me to put in time just for the check when I wanted to be elsewhere. So I got out for kid, wife and home. Kid has worked out wonderfully, wife and home eh, not so much.

 
 Really, I want to get my retirement check when I hit 60. That will mean the country still functions. For me there is no charming 3rd world country with my wallet full of bitcoin and a secure cyber life. I was born here, kinda like the Republic, wish it would function. So, if we financially fail I'd take no glee in the crash of America like some. Hopefully a re-formed government would honor previous contracts. (Not this one of course, see GM) I still haven't fully laid out my thoughts on this, just wish that vets would be the adults in the room and not throw out the V card. Sure I've got a list of programs that need to be cut before my pension but in reality the oath of enlistment(6 times by now) doesn't really expire in my mind and it takes precedence over my check in the mail.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

dm1333

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2013, 06:30:13 AM »
Are you sure?  As a recent vet I'm tapped into a fair number of current and active military.  Very few are interested in seeing any benefits go away.  Witness the recent furor over reducing tuition assistance.  I think French G made some good points in his first post.

Yup, I'm sure.

I have heard pretty much zero bitching about TA being changed. 

dm1333

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2013, 06:37:45 AM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?

Would you listen?  This isn't the first time you have made disdainful comments about "any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role."

This quote of yours makes me think you truly don't understand.

Quote
It's hardly irreplaceable talent

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2013, 06:59:32 AM »
Would you listen?  This isn't the first time you have made disdainful comments about "any infantry/combat/bureaucratic support/MP/janitorial/fighter-jockey/cooking/etc role."

This quote of yours makes me think you truly don't understand.

That az44 does not understand the motivations of folk who choose combat arms of their own volition is readily apparent.  I suspect it is a lost cause after years of exposure to a fair number of them here on aps.
Regards,

roo_ster

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makattak

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2013, 08:37:48 AM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?

That was unnecessarily inflammatory and, well, unnecessary in the first place.

You purposely misunderstood their arguments and took a argument over economics and tried to turn it into an argument over virtues.

The veterans (of which, I am not) and those who are supporting them were not saying that no cuts whatsoever must ever touch the military.

They were pointing out the costs to the (in my own opinion) flippant cuts you were suggesting- that is, that very few positions in the modern military are "low-skill". They may require following orders, but almost all of them must be taught which entails an investment of time and money.

As with any investment, it is wise to consider what the replacement cost of an employee would be and if it is better to keep the experienced employees on hand or just pay dirt cheap wages to skill-less workers straight off the street.

You purposely tried to turn it into "WELL YOU DON'T LOVE 'MERICAH THEN!" Pointing out costs is not the same as saying no one would ever join the military if they weren't being paid. They (and now, I, as well) are saying that it is better to align incentives in a way that has the best return for the investment.

You can ignore that argument (as you clearly did) but that doesn't make the costs disappear.
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lupinus

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Re: Re: Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2013, 08:48:30 AM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?
Wow dude...wow
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2013, 08:59:22 AM »
So, you guys will take a bullet for the country as long as you get your 30 pieces of silver?

But once the silver dries up, no way?

Please clarify.

Why do you do, what you do?



The greatest threat this country faces isn't the Commies, or the Norks, or the Shifty-Eyed-Ay-rabs.  It's financial ruin.

How will our military bravely face that?

 :facepalm:

What's your anwer? Do the military like the peace corps? A bunch of unpaid volunteers?


And back to you, Why do you do what you do?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2013, 09:23:12 AM »
You're right, that was inflammatory.  I apologize.  It was hastily written looking for something suitably barbed, and I overdid it.

However:

AmRevWar soldiers did not get pensions after 20 years of service.

Civil War era soldiers did not get pensions after 20 years of service.

WWI/II era soldiers did not get pensions after 20 years of service.


There were highly skilled warriors in all those conflicts.


This idea of soldier pensions is a direct result of the growth of unions.  We see exactly what that got us, in the form of violations of the sanctity of contracts (GM bailout and bondholder shafting sponsored by govt).

Debt, SS and DOD are the three biggest line items on the budget.  Nation-killing deficits, each one of them.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2013, 09:43:20 AM »
Quote
This idea of soldier pensions is a direct result of the growth of unions.

Wrong

There were pensions for the American Revolutionary War.

Quote
The first pension law in 1776 granted half-pay for life to soldiers disabled in the service and unable to earn a living. The first pension law based on service was passed in 1818, but it was later amended to make eligible only those soldiers unable to earn a living. The pension act of 1832 allowed pensions again based on service and made widows of veterans also eligible to receive pension benefits. Fires in 1800 destroyed the earliest Revolutionary War pension application records. As a result, pension application papers on file at the National Archives begin after 1800. Certain pension records predating 1800 survive in the form of Congressional reports and other legislation. Reports available are arranged by state; they give name, rank, regiment, description of wounds, and disability; they also give information regarding pension, place of residence, and physical fitness. (FHL film 0944495.)

Not the retirement system we have today, no, but still a pension system before unions.

Civil War Pensions happened too

One of the things is the 20 year service requirement did not come around till modern times. Previous pensions could and often were based on shorter service terms and/or disability or wounds.

I do not understand your war against veteran pensions...






Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Time to screw over the vets again.
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2013, 09:48:28 AM »
I knew about those types of pensions, Boomhauer.  No problem with wounded pensions or death benefits.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!