NYC Welfare Food Shipped to the Dominican Republic Then Sold on Black Market

[roo_ster]

Fixed.

And actually, embarrassingly, I typed it like that. 

Obviously you are no true pirate, to leave out the Arrrrrrrr!

[Scout26]

Again, I don't know what kind of aid the US gives to the DR, if any, but considering the results of our efforts in sub-Saharan Africa, the people who are actually buying those smuggled boxes of Frosted Flakes very likely have no other way of getting them - at any price.  That doesn't justify the system, it only illustrates how useless aid programs are.  Our options are limited:

1. Send money.  Funds line bureaucrats/warlords pockets, no food is purchased.

2. Send food.  Food rots on the docks, is never distributed.

3. Do nothing.  Sarah Maclaughlan shows us video of starving children and implies that wealthy Americans are horrible monsters.

Actually option 3 being best choice.   By us providing free food, clothing, shoes, etc. we dis-incentivize local producers of those goods/services.   The longer we give them poverty aid, the longer they (and those that would produce food, clothing, etc.) will remain in poverty.   Long term aid is the cruelest thing we can do. 

Short term, as in recovering from a natural disaster, then we can do good, but we need to gone NLT 3-6 months after said event.

[Firethorn]

Short term, as in recovering from a natural disaster, then we can do good, but we need to gone NLT 3-6 months after said event.

Devoni forgot a part of #2 - if it doesn't rot, it's sold on the black market by the warlords, essentially putting you back at #1.

Otherwise, Agreed.  Farmers can't compete against free high quality grains and such.  Provide food aid long enough to get people back on their feet.  Better yet, provide for the first couple weeks, charge for the next couple months, then stop.

You are not entitled to a job.  Jobs are created by people through voluntary contract.  Any action that "makes sure there's the extra 30M or so jobs out there" can only be achieved by forcing people to spend money creating those positions - to "buy" those employees in a situation where they otherwise aren't.  It's inherently coercive, and I believe morally wrong.

I'm approaching it from the opposite angle.  As long as we're not willing to let them starve/die in the street/demand proof of ability to pay in emergency rooms:
1.  Hungry/Homeless people are desperate.  Homeless people in particular cost the USA a staggering amount each year.  It's actually cheaper to:
2.  Provide Aid.  When they're not starving/homeless they're much more likely to follow the rules, not clog the emergency rooms, etc...
3.  If we're providing food, housing, medical care, etc...  We might as well have them work and pay them a smidge of money
4.  You should NOT be worse off as a more or less law abiding person outside of prison than as a lawbreaker inside.

Edit because I forget a bit of conclusion:  It's not that I object to your philosophy Nick, it's that I'm not willing, in this case, to cut my nose off to spite my face.  Providing basic welfare in order to prevent homelessness cuts the costs of that person to government services by a factor of 2 to 6.  I'd rather pay under $12k than $25k.  $25k over $150k, depending on which study, location, time, and subgroup you look at.

In exchange:  I expect you to do some work.  Preferably productive work.  Picking trash up off the highways helps beautification, tourism, environmentalism, and such, but it's still what I would consider a very marginal return.

[cordex]

I'm approaching it from the opposite angle.  As long as we're not willing to let them starve/die in the street/demand proof of ability to pay in emergency rooms:

Your low cost for high cost exchange only works assuming you are willing to let starve those who are unwilling or unable to work in your jobs of last resort.

[RoadKingLarry]

One problem with that:

Do you want to drive on a bridge someone in the position of having to work for the government to get their "free stuff" repaired? When employment is "gauranteed"?

Ever hear of the WPA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

Not an optimal situation but not the end of the world.

Some of the WPA stuff around here is still standng and still in use.

http://livingnewdeal.berkeley.edu/us/ok/

[makattak]

Ever hear of the WPA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

Not an optimal situation but not the end of the world.

Some of the WPA stuff around here is still standng and still in use.

That is from a completely different culture which valued hard work. Further, most of these individuals came from a background of working and had just lost jobs.

Compare that to a 6th generation welfare recipient suddenly being told he has to work on this bridge to continue getting benefits.

What I'm referring to here is the "Entitlement Society" we now live in.

[Firethorn]

Your low cost for high cost exchange only works assuming you are willing to let starve those who are unwilling or unable to work in your jobs of last resort.

Point.  Which is part of why I propose paying them more than what we provide for assistance right now.  Because to be honest, some people are so badly off that you might as well look at providing housing and such part of their medical treatment for mental illness/addiction/whatnot under disability sections.  Which would cover 'unable'.  Part of the fine print of the bill would be that the government would be required to find something they can do.  Might not get much pocket change in that position though if they're an illiterate narcoleptic that can't walk 100 feet.

Oh yeah, that's something we could do better with - handling temporary disabilities that are more than a month(or so) but less than a decade.

Do you want to drive on a bridge someone in the position of having to work for the government to get their "free stuff" repaired? When employment is "gauranteed"?

Employment is guaranteed.  Building/repairing bridges would be premium work.  Can't build a bridge to spec?  You're demoted to trash duty, which pays less.

What I'm referring to here is the "Entitlement Society" we now live in.

It's going to take a while, I'll admit.

[RevDisk]

That is from a completely different culture which valued hard work. Further, most of these individuals came from a background of working and had just lost jobs.

Compare that to a 6th generation welfare recipient suddenly being told he has to work on this bridge to continue getting benefits.

What I'm referring to here is the "Entitlement Society" we now live in.

You'd be surprised how many 6th generation welfare recipients have informal jobs. Pirating CDs/DVDs, cutting hair, hawking counterfeit merch, drug dealing, fixing cars, construction, etc. Welfare doesn't pay THAT much. Maybe enough to live on combined with public housing or whatnot, but not much on luxuries. So they claim welfare, and work a cash job. Care to guess how many 4th or 5th generation Appalachian welfare recipients are also pot farmers?

Every generation likes to think previous generations had their excrement more together. It is basically never been true. Each and every generation sucks in its own special and unique way. And each generation has its redeeming aspects as well.

[Scout26]

1.  Re-institutionalize the mentally ill.  Kicking them out into the streets to fend for themselves is beyond cruel.  At worst they were housed, kept out of the elements, fed, and bathed on a regular basis.

2.  Addicts.  Put them in re-hab homes.  Some will get treatment and get well.  Others, well, they still have free will.

3.  Families that are "down on their luck".  Housing and food (the above beans and rice) for 3-6 months max.  That will spur folks to find/take a job.

4.  Eliminate Minimum wage.  The liberals will howl, but so what?  We're never going to make them happy.  Scrrooo 'em.  If two people agree to a contract who are we to say no.

5.  Homeless Veterans.  I'm of two minds.  1) The military taught you and trained you on how to overcome adversity and succeed, so suck it up princess.  2)  We need to do a better job of transition from military to civilian and mental health care.

6.  Unemployment/welfare/the dole.  3 months Unemployment max.  Welfare and food aid handled by local non-profits.  I can guaran-damn-tee those nice, friendly church ladies will cut your ass off after a while, if they see you in line for a hand-out week, after week, after week, after week.

[fifth_column]

You'd be surprised how many 6th generation welfare recipients have informal jobs. Pirating CDs/DVDs, cutting hair, hawking counterfeit merch, drug dealing, fixing cars, construction, etc. Welfare doesn't pay THAT much. Maybe enough to live on combined with public housing or whatnot, but not much on luxuries. So they claim welfare, and work a cash job. Care to guess how many 4th or 5th generation Appalachian welfare recipients are also pot farmers?

Every generation likes to think previous generations had their excrement more together. It is basically never been true. Each and every generation sucks in its own special and unique way. And each generation has its redeeming aspects as well.

Yep, I think fraud is the main issue with entitlement programs today.  It's not only the recipients engaging in it either.  Many of the people administering it are more than willing to look the other way, or even actively assist a recipient to game the system.  If the system worked as intended it wouldn't be nearly the boondoggle it is today.  But the system itself is corrupt, and was set up for some ideal world, somehow disregarding that people will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want.

[Hawkmoon]

That is from a completely different culture which valued hard work. Further, most of these individuals came from a background of working and had just lost jobs.

Compare that to a 6th generation welfare recipient suddenly being told he has to work on this bridge to continue getting benefits.

What I'm referring to here is the "Entitlement Society" we now live in.

Seconded.

No comparison.

[Firethorn]

Yep, I think fraud is the main issue with entitlement programs today.  It's not only the recipients engaging in it either.  Many of the people administering it are more than willing to look the other way, or even actively assist a recipient to game the system.  If the system worked as intended it wouldn't be nearly the boondoggle it is today.  But the system itself is corrupt, and was set up for some ideal world, somehow disregarding that people will lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want.

Do you happen to have any figures on what percentage of various welfare programs are being used/distributed fraudulently?

Scout - Eliminating minimum wage doesn't do much good if it means employers can literally pay starvation wages(IE they won't even cover adequate food for the worker).
Other than that, I'd want 'training' to be somewhere in your proposal - trained workers are more valuable and can demand higher wages than unskilled workers.  Get them the skills and you'll have to support them less.

[roo_ster]

Do you happen to have any figures on what percentage of various welfare programs are being used/distributed fraudulently?

Scout - Eliminating minimum wage doesn't do much good if it means employers can literally pay starvation wages(IE they won't even cover adequate food for the worker).
Other than that, I'd want 'training' to be somewhere in your proposal - trained workers are more valuable and can demand higher wages than unskilled workers.  Get them the skills and you'll have to support them less.

1. Many new or unskilled workers are not worth the minimum wage.  IOW, their contributions the the bottom line are less than it costs the employer to hire and pay them.  Thus, a minimum wage is a barrier to entry in the labor market for new/unskilled workers who may not yet have developed the work habits to make them useful.  These workers will have a much more difficult time learning the basic skills and habits.

2. If they are relying on a minimum wage job for all their support, they are doing it wrong.  First & foremost, most min wage jobs go to folks who are already being supported in some respect.  An adult child still living at home, a teenager working after school, etc.  Even if they are so socially unmoored to be 18YO+ and on their own, relying on a min wage job, they would still qualify for beau coup gov't-provided taxpayer-extorted aid.

3.  Government job training programs are boondoggles.  The only permanent/long term jobs they create are for the bureaucrats who administer the program.  They are usually training the wrong or obsolete skill set and/or the trainees are just there to check a box so they can get their gov't welfare check.  Government subsidized are almost as bad(1).




(1) My dad is a logistics guru who retired and taught log at the local community college.  ONE semester.  Turns out, all his students were Somali "refugees" brought over to the USA.  Their tuition was subsidized by gov't the taxpayers.  To call these folks ignorant bumpkins is an insult to bumpkins.  They were illiterate in two languages: their own savage tongue and English.  They could barely communicate in English, let alone do the course work required.   These folks were unfit in every way for a 21st century.  No skills, no work habits, pissy attitude, zero appreciation for what was being done for them.  Un-trainable on the hands-on portion of the course as they could not take instruction.

[Scout26]

Scout - Eliminating minimum wage doesn't do much good if it means employers can literally pay starvation wages(IE they won't even cover adequate food for the worker).
Other than that, I'd want 'training' to be somewhere in your proposal - trained workers are more valuable and can demand higher wages than unskilled workers.  Get them the skills and you'll have to support them less.

1.  You DON'T have to take a job paying "starvation" wages.   If your skills are worth more.   By your logic, every existing job should pay only Minimum wage.  But they don't do they?  Depending on the skills/talents/abilities needed various jobs pay various amounts.  What's true for the middle and upper ends of the pay scale are also true for the bottom end.  Many Employers also give raises and/or promotions.  There may also be bonuses.  Most do their best to keep their good employees.   What we are talking about are entry level jobs.  That first rung on the ladder.  Minimum wage puts that first rung out of the reach of many, denying them that initial opportunity to gain basic job skills.  My first job (other than cutting lawns and shoveling snow) paid $1 per hour.  And I filled bottles with animal urines and scents!!  But that job taught me basic skills that enabled me to go get a job that paid $2.75 per hour (Min Wage at that time).   I finished High School, finished college and continued to make more at each new job then I did at the previous (and I also got raises and/or bonuses at each job).  I made myself more valuable as an employee over time.

2.  We do have a training program.  It's called "Free Public Schools".  The opportunity to learn and excel is there.  Yes, even in the worst inner city schools.  If you choose to take it.

[Firethorn]

1. Many new or unskilled workers are not worth the minimum wage.

There's many reasons I'm harping for a job program that teaches skills.

2. If they are relying on a minimum wage job for all their support, they are doing it wrong.

Sometimes it's like an echo chamber in here:  I know this.  Which is why I phrased the context of eliminating minimum wage in exchange for a 'fedjob' program that, in exchange for ~40 hours of work a week, provides sufficient shelter, food, healthcare, and even some spending money depending upon the difficulty of the work.  To make you more valuable, it even provides training.

  First & foremost, most min wage jobs go to folks who are already being supported in some respect.

75.3M hourly workers, 4.6% of which earned minimum wage or below.  3% of workers 25+ earn minimum wage.
source

An adult child still living at home, a teenager working after school, etc.  Even if they are so socially unmoored to be 18YO+ and on their own, relying on a min wage job, they would still qualify for beau coup gov't-provided taxpayer-extorted aid.

Which I proposed getting rid of.

3.  Government job training programs are boondoggles.  The only permanent/long term jobs they create are for the bureaucrats who administer the program.  They are usually training the wrong or obsolete skill set and/or the trainees are just there to check a box so they can get their gov't welfare check.  Government subsidized are almost as bad(1).

Nearly all education in the USA is government subsidized.  Do you have a degree?  How much federal assistance did you get?  Of course, I agree in some aspects - federal programs are part of what has allowed education in the USA to spiral down in effectiveness while spiraling up in expense. 

Of course we'd have to be agile with the program.  I also picture much of the training being to make them more useful on the projects they're working on.  Training for a career outside the 'fedjob' program would be much more self-directed, funded by earning education credits/vouchers through work.

These folks were unfit in every way for a 21st century.  No skills, no work habits, pissy attitude, zero appreciation for what was being done for them.  Un-trainable on the hands-on portion of the course as they could not take instruction.

To me this seems to be a failing of the system.  Even if your father was otherwise a good teacher(and I don't know that), he was an ill fit for them.  But what else are you going to do with them?  They're useless as is. 

1.  You DON'T have to take a job paying "starvation" wages.   If your skills are worth more.   By your logic, every existing job should pay only Minimum wage.

You're taking some awful big liberties with my logic with that statement.  Hell, you seem to be assuming that I want to keep minimum wage(I don't).  For that matter, depending on area and family situation minimum wage isn't enough for what even I'd consider a minimal but survivable 'quality of life' - and I'm cheap.  Hint:  "trained workers are more valuable and can demand higher wages" means that if you're a 'skilled worker' you shouldn't be getting minimum wage, and certainly not 'starvation wages'.

2.  We do have a training program.  It's called "Free Public Schools".  The opportunity to learn and excel is there.  Yes, even in the worst inner city schools.  If you choose to take it.

A high school diploma is only the start.  I'm talking about stuff like knowing how to do plumbing, pour concrete, electrical, etc...

[roo_ster]

1. Education (public K-12 or university) is not job training.  Some bits of community colleges are actual job training.

2. Dude, you called for an "agile" gov't program.  Good luck with that.  You'll find it next to Mr. Leprechaun's pot of gold, at the end of the rainbow.

3. The "system" did not fail.  The community college system there has educated & trained generations of locals.  That particular comm college works directly with the local unions and employers to get quality instructors and to get a sense of the skill sets in demand locally.  It also works job placement.  Lots of the kids in their programs graduate into jobs working with their former instructors.  The Somalis are not a good fit with any instructor outside of Somalia.  Yes, they are useless and they will remain useless.  They need to be sent back to Somaila. 

[Firethorn]

1. Education (public K-12 or university) is not job training.  Some bits of community colleges are actual job training.

Is this for scout26 or me?  I consider education to be a generic job skill.  People with it are generally able to demand higher wages than those without.  Thus why I stated that a highschool diploma is only a start, then proceeded to list actual skills without mentioning college.

2. Dude, you called for an "agile" gov't program.  Good luck with that.  You'll find it next to Mr. Leprechaun's pot of gold, at the end of the rainbow.

Point, I am asking for a lot, aren't I?  Remember, I'm basing it on the military model - it might not be the most agile, but it's a start.

3. The "system" did not fail.  The community college system there has educated & trained generations of locals.

It certainly did; the unique requirments of the Somalies needs to to be addressed, even if it means remedial classes from heck.

The Somalis are not a good fit with any instructor outside of Somalia.  Yes, they are useless and they will remain useless.  They need to be sent back to Somaila. 

Bull.  You're just not thinking widely enough.  Yes, there are problems.

Still, let's consider what would happen with them under what I set up:
1.  They'd be assessed for their current skillsets (Let's assume 'nothing useful here', though they might be experienced goat herders).
2.  They'll be assessed for their ability to learn skillsets(let's assume the results are 'we have a lot of work to do).
3.  They're placed to do something useful with their current skillset.  In this case it might be picking up trash/cleaning bathrooms*
4.  Sent to school after work to learn english/modified primary school education(less emphasis on history and such), perhaps an advanced skillset.

*Remember 'lot of work'?

[roo_ster]

Firethorn, you are a technocrat's wet dream.

You work under the misguided assumption that gov't bureaucracies can manage human complexity and get a useful product out at the end of the process.

All your ideas founder on the rocks of reality.

Here is what gov't bureaucracies can do regarding humans and their behavior with some bit of efficiency:
1. Suck up taxpayer dollars and cut checks to other people.
2. Kill the bureaucracy's enemies(1).
3. There is no third task bureaucracy does efficiently.

Oh, and screw "The unique needs of the Somalis."   It is not our responsibility to re-arrange our society to suit them.





(1) Not the enemies of the nation or Constitution, but the bureaucracy's enemies.

[Firethorn]

You work under the misguided assumption that gov't bureaucracies can manage human complexity and get a useful product out at the end of the process.

Not 100% of the time, no.  I'm just after 'better than what we have now'.

All your ideas founder on the rocks of reality.

How specific of you.  Nice to see you point out the specific ways my ideas are worse than current reality.

Oh, and screw "The unique needs of the Somalis."   It is not our responsibility to re-arrange our society to suit them.

Making them work on *something* useful while shoving them into school to learn English is 're-arranging our society'?  Keep in mind that I'm giving a response to a specific scenario.  You could have substituted 'sixth generation welfare recepient' and you would have gotten the same response.  Now yes, I didn't consider 'just send them back' because I don't know why they're here, so I didn't want to address that issue.  I looked at it as 'They're here, we're not getting rid of them, what can we do to minimize what they'll cost us?'.  They're unlikely to have actual brain damage, so my thought is 'teach them enough that they can survive without government assistance anymore'.  Teach them how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish.  Even if it means that, as a first generation immigrant they're lucky to be janitors.

And yes, I'm something of a Technocrat.  I even tend Evil Overlord sometimes.

The way to increase the average/median quality of life in the USA is to increase productivity.  There are two ways to do this - increase the productivity of the individual worker, or get more of our population working.  We've gone a long, long ways on the former, we need to do a bit on the latter. 

Ultimately I think things will settle down quite well as costs rise in China to the point that producing here is cheaper again; it's happening in select industries, but I predict an explosion of this within the next 20 or so years.  Basically, as soon as the Chinese start giving as much of a *expletive deleted*it about pollution as we did back in the '60s I figure that production costs in China will soar to the point it's cheaper to do it here, on average.  The return of oodles of manufacturing, though on average each factory will only employ a couple hundred people, will reduce a lot of our employment problems. 

Heck, some other policies might do us some good, employment wise:
1.  Work to elimintate legislative differences between 'full time' and 'part time' workers that make part timers significantly cheaper than full timers, to the point that you have quite a few businesses that deliberately hire as many people part time as they can, forcing their workers to work two jobs - often between the same 2-3 companies!  This creates scheduling issues and time waste.
2.  Seperate health care benefits and employment(will help with #1).
3.  Make our prisons/justice system more about reform than warehousing or punishment.  When criminals come out of prison worse(crime wise) than when they went in, there's a serious problem.

I'm a practical minarchist.  That means that if more government in area A will reduce government even more in area B, and benefit society in the meantime, we should do it.

[Hawkmoon]

6.  Unemployment/welfare/the dole.  3 months Unemployment max.  Welfare and food aid handled by local non-profits.  I can guaran-damn-tee those nice, friendly church ladies will cut your ass off after a while, if they see you in line for a hand-out week, after week, after week, after week.

My church hosts the daily luncheon food kitchen for the area. I absolutely guaran-damn-tee you that the nice church ladies will NOT cut you off -- ever.

[Scout26]

To get back to my point that K-12 education WAS and SHOULD BE job training.  That was the purpose of universal education to better the condition of the common man by enabling him to read and write, to understand the events that effected him and to give him skills to improve himself and his condition. 

Back when my parents went to school they were taught Calculus, Trigonometry, Greek, Latin, Advanced Chemistry and Physics among other subjects, classes that would be consider "Accelerated" or College level today.

Those that graduated (and even many who did not finish) were well qualified to hold a wide variety of jobs and many went on to become business and community leaders, having never gone to college.   Even some of those that did not finish were later successful in life.  Or at least able to provide for themselves and their families.

But we've gone from a society that demanded and expected the best of people, to a culture of victimhood, where someone else is to blame for your condition. 


Job training and any other .gov program is a complete and total waste of money.  Please point to ONE job training program that has EVER delivered well qualified employees on a consistent (or even efficient) basis?   When my grandparents arrived in this country, there were no job training programs.   My mothers parents hooked up with a German group that had bought land in Effingham county and moved there.  He worked on neighboring farms until they had saved enough money to buy their own land.  My dad's father worked several jobs before he got a job with a railroad and worked his way up to fireman before he died.  None of my grandparents considered themselves "too good" to take any job.   If it paid money, they took the work.  Minimum wage?!?!  They never heard of it.  If it paid money and they thought they could do it, they jumped all over it like a loose food stamp in a grocery store check-out line in the 'hood.

My point is:  The people in your community have spent their tax dollars (Property or others) to pay for you to get a K-12 education.  If you fail to avail yourself of that gift, then you deserve to earn far less then minimum wage, until you pull your head out of your fourth point and learn.


I'm reminded of a story that I heard about a one of the newest millionaires, I disremember who, but I do know that he is Black/African-American.  Anyway.  He was the class clown and didn't like learning, teachers, and school.  One day in 4th or 5th grade, his teacher had had enough and sent him to stand out the hallway, so that she could teach the class without his constant disruptions. 

As he's standing out the hallway, the school janitor (and elderly Black/African-American gentleman) comes by and sees him standing there.  And says "I was just like you growing up.  Fighting, cutting classes, giving my teachers hell, etc.  And look where it got me.  Now, look in that room and tell me what you see. "

"I see a bunch of kids learning."

And the elderly janitor said, "And I see a bunch of kids who will be your boss someday."  and then he pushed his trash trolley down the hallway.