Author Topic: Trouble in Ukraine  (Read 65156 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re:
« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2014, 04:16:00 PM »
If they are picking em off with snipers I think they raised the stakes. And has russia changed so much that the army is off the table?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re:
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2014, 04:34:28 PM »
If they are picking em off with snipers I think they raised the stakes. And has russia changed so much that the army is off the table?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Rumor is that a thousand ish Spetznaz landed at Boryspil and Zhulyany and are now wearing Berkut uniforms. It's unconfirmed.

There's also Sevastopol, home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. North of 20k Russian sailors and Marines. This is one of the issues of contention. Russia is selling the Ukrainians gas at expensive rates. The 2009 treaty had very unfavourable terms for Ukraine, which the 2010 Kharkiv Pact did not completely deal with. The deal was a discount on the gas in exchange for a 25 year lease of Sevastopol. A lot of Sevastopol residents consider themselves Russians, and want to be Russian territory.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re:
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2014, 04:42:29 PM »
And I am reading they have 60 plus cops prisoner. Thats a mixed bag. Yes it MIGHT give you leverage but you need to take good care of em. And the mob has a certain burn baby burn element.  If the hard liners can even claim that the prisoners are being hurt they can turn up the heat real high. Never been afraid of killing their own. Similar to the chinese.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,315
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2014, 04:44:36 PM »
Quote
A lot of Sevastopol residents consider themselves Russians, and want to be Russian territory.

Gee, doesn't that sound familiar...
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,000
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2014, 05:21:44 PM »
RD, does the Ukraine military have its own Spetsnaz force, or does this mean that the Russian military has deployed special forces?
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re:
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2014, 05:30:12 PM »
And I am reading they have 60 plus cops prisoner. Thats a mixed bag. Yes it MIGHT give you leverage but you need to take good care of em. And the mob has a certain burn baby burn element.  If the hard liners can even claim that the prisoners are being hurt they can turn up the heat real high. Never been afraid of killing their own. Similar to the chinese.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

A number of cops have been returned after being captured. Not exactly unhurt, but not apparently mistreated after capture. Those are regular black uniform cops though, not Berkut or Titushky. Afaik there are only about 4000 Berkut total in the country?

RD, does the Ukraine military have its own Spetsnaz force, or does this mean that the Russian military has deployed special forces?

My understanding is that they (the Ukies) are using the term the way we use SWAT: a generic upscale version of the state security forces not a specific unit.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2014, 05:38:49 PM »
As far as I can tell this is a factual report with some questionable spin re morale levels.

Quote
20.40 Information from the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine: "Uniformed troops - 1,500 paratroopers, 400 marines and special forces - are heading to Kyiv. They have been subordinatied to the SBU (Ukrainian Security Service) to conduct anti-terrorist operations. There will be a clearing [of the Maidan] rather soon. Officers, ensigns and contracted men. Moral is low. Seventy percent of them do not want to fight against the people. "

P.S. This refers to the 25th Airborne Brigade, the 1st Brigade of Marines, the 831 anti-insurgency squad, and 73rd nautical centre special purpose
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,966
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2014, 05:40:34 PM »
I love how this is "anti-terrorist" when it's obviously a democratic uprising. :rofl:

Not that democracy is anything to aspire to...
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2014, 05:43:46 PM »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2014, 05:44:46 PM »
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2014, 05:45:29 PM »
Before and after.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2014, 05:48:11 PM »
Parliament is scared. These passed either unopposed or with around %99 support, including 30+ members of Yanukovich's party. Many legislators have fled however, not sure if this is a quorum.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2014, 05:52:49 PM »
Priests are working over time.





Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,966
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #113 on: February 20, 2014, 05:56:48 PM »
Defection en masse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SKcG11a5HxI

Translation?

All I heard, was:

Quote
From this moment on... There will be no further reprisals against civilians. This was stupid. Impotence. Comrades... If a fox stole your chickens... Would you slaughter your pig because he saw the fox? No. You would hunt the fox... You would find where it lives and destroy it! And how do we do this? Become a fox.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2014, 06:30:29 PM »
One of those reported killed by police fire, a young medic.



Confirmed she was shot. Guess the big red cross makes a good target.

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #116 on: February 20, 2014, 06:51:53 PM »
Per Christopher Miller, a known entity as an on the ground reporter in Kyiv, these were discovered in the October Palace after the SBU abandoned it. IED parts, which given that they were strapping bolts to flash bangs weeks ago is not that surprising.



Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #117 on: February 20, 2014, 06:55:01 PM »
Translation?

All I heard, was:


Best I can find, not sure if accurate.

Quote
Believe they're chanting "militia" and "the police are with the people."
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #118 on: February 20, 2014, 07:00:24 PM »
Sign on the right (reportedly) reads "Sign up for self defense."

Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #119 on: February 20, 2014, 07:21:53 PM »
Excellent video from 18 Feb of the fighting.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=58b_1392877307
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2014, 07:23:22 PM »
Sauce for the cops making (more) IED's.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/with_replies
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2014, 09:37:05 PM »
Picked this up off of Matt Bracken's FB page.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,847
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2014, 10:32:18 PM »
Problem with mowing down the protestors is it will drive the moderates to pick sides. I don't like the OWS crowds. Most of the folks here don't like the OWS folks. But if troops and cops started mowing them down in job lots for daring to question the government... I have a feeling most of us would not take kindly to such things.

 And if the government forces step it up, and lose, they are in really deep doo. Remember what happened in Romania 1989?  The Army turned on the police in concert with the civilians- no quarter.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2014, 10:52:17 PM »
Yeah, civil wars are the ugliest.  The gloves come off.   :'( :'(
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Trouble in Ukraine
« Reply #124 on: February 21, 2014, 03:03:52 AM »
An explanation in depth of the vote today.

"Today, after the morning massacres had calmed down a little, opposition politicians began calling for MP's to gather in Parliament at 3pm. Deputy Lyashko and others pronounced guarantees to Party of Regions MP's that no demonstrations would be held near the building during this special session - apparently some government MP's had expressed concern for their own safety in the wake of that morning's violence and deaths.

The session did not start until around 5pm, and MPs gathered very gradually. Initially, only 227 registered (minimum quorum: 226), but as the evening wore on, more and more MP's from the Party of Regions and nominal independents arrived. By 10pm, 238 had registered to vote.

The key test came just after 10pm when the speeches ceased and a draft document was put to a vote. In the end 236 voted in favor of the "Postanova" that orders the following:
1. All Interior Ministry troops currently in Kyiv are ordered to cease fire and return to barracks.
2. All live ammunition and lethal weapons that have been issued to government forces are to be returned immediately.
3. Blocking roads and rail lines for the purpose of limiting the movement of people is to cease.
4. All anti terrorist operations currently undertaken by the State Security Service and Interior Ministry are to be stopped immediately.
5. Circumstances that have led to deaths and casualties are to be investigated and the guilty brought to trial forthwith by the Prosecutor General.
6. The Cabinet of Ministers is ordered to provide financial compensation to all victims of the recent violence and their families.
7. Activists arrested for their participation in protests are to be released and all criminal cases against them closed.
8. It is now the exclusive right of parliament to declare a state of emergency.

All of the above was passed as a "Postanova" - a one time legislative order that has the force of law, but according to Ukraine's Constitution, and unlike other laws, need not be signed by the President. Postanova's are signed by the Chairman/Speaker of the Parliament, or in his absence, by one of his Deputies. Tonight's session of Parliament was chaired by Svoboda MP Koshulynsky, and he has signed the document making it legal.

Two points of significance:
1) Parliamentary Speaker Rybak and First Deputy Speaker Kaletnyk (Communist Party) were not present at tonight's session; neither were 167 deputies from the Party of Regions, nor any of the Communist MP's.  Nevertheless, a temporary majority was assembled with all members of the 3 opposition parties and most independents in attendance together with 20+ Party of Regions MPs who have now effectively defected from the government camp. According to rumors many Party of Regions MPs left the country today - including (according to some reports) Speaker Rybak. Does this signal a permanent end to the pro-Yanukovych majority in Parliament? If so, it signifies the beginning of the end of his regime.

2) Although a Postanova is a legislative order that has the force of law, and cannot be vetoed by the President, it is unclear what happens if Yanukovych issues a Presidential Decree cancelling the Postanova. Furthermore, it is unclear which should take precedent: the Law on Counter-Terrorism which has been the formal document used to authorize the use of lethal force and abrogation of civil rights during the past 2 days, or the one-time Postanova. Finally is highly unclear whether Interior Ministry forces will obey this Postanova at all.

After passing their document, Ukraine's 3 opposition leaders immediately left Parliament for the Presidential Administration building where, reportedly, they were joined by 3 visiting EU foreign ministers. Apparently they will attempt to collectively convince Yanukovych to accept the need for constitutional changes - these are to be voted on tomorrow. Whether enough votes can be gathered, and whether Yanukovych will budge are all open questions...

(written by Prof. Mychailo Wynnycky, Kyiv Mohyla Academy)"
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.