The effects of wind farms on the power grid

[Balog]

http://alfinnextlevel.wordpress.com/2014/01/26/wind-farms-hasten-the-collapse-of-power-grids/

A good overview for those of you with enviro friends. Contrary to the conventional wisdom on here. I think a lot of folks are simply uneducated about the dangers of things like wind and solar feeding the grid. Always better to educate than just write them off.

[Brad Johnson]

ZOMG THE GRID IS GOING DOWN IF WE ADD ANOTHER WIND FARM!!!!!

No, it isn't.  Normal demand fluctuations outstrip wind energy's total grid input by many orders of magnitude, marginalizing wind energy's impact on overall grid stability.  Then add that wind energy's capacity is known, the general weather-related trending can be anticipated to a reasonable degree, and that coal/NG/nuke power maintains a stable core input.  The author's oversimplification of the grid infrastructure, response times to grid demand, overall grid interconnectivity, and general effect on grid stability is overdramatic, uneducated tripe of the Facebook variety.  It treats a minor player as a major influence and takes a hyper-dramatic approach to a "what if" that has no realistic chance of ever occurring.

In short, the article is misinformed, poorly researched, overly dramatic hand-wringer-esque crap.

Brad

[Balog]

Huh, I didn't know you had family who did wind farming.

And you'll also note that the author posits that it will be a problem, if the .gov forces wind et al to be a more major part of the overall grid. See the reference to Germany shutting down their nuke plants post Fukushima.

[Brad Johnson]

And you'll also note that the author posits that it will be a problem, if the .gov forces wind et al to be a more major part of the overall grid. See the reference to Germany shutting down their nuke plants post Fukushima.

There is a finite realistic limit to how much contribution wind power can make, and the cost of wind energy (currently about three to four times that of traditional energy) will preclude wind becoming a major player in the U.S. market unless some very radical things happen at the regulatory/legislative levels.  I don't seen those happening any time soon, and there are more efficient technologies on the horizon that will eclipse wind energy's current social darling status anyway.  It's a tempest in a teapot that looks bad on paper, but in real life it's no big deal.

Brad

[Fly320s]

Brad, is solar-derived electricity as minor a player in the grid as wind? Or does solar create bigger problems?

[Brad Johnson]

Brad, is solar-derived electricity as minor a player in the grid as wind? Or does solar create bigger problems?

Depends on who you ask.  That's one of the emerging technologies.  Research is showing graphene-based PV cells getting real-world efficiencies of more than 60%.  That's about double current production cells, and the tech is just getting legs.  No idea on cost, but anecdotal word is staggering reductions in unit cost over current PV production costs.  Graphenes would also allow for thin-film substrates that could, in more-realistic-than-you-think theory, allow for PV cells to be printed as needed on sheet or roll plastic.  That would revolutionize PV energy production in the U.S., and would give an insane amount of application flexibility.

Brad

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

   

Actual graphene cell efficiencies are in the mid teens.  There was a new paper on this just a week or two ago.  Graphene cells fall far short of 60% in actual tests, and lag all other major photovoltaic cell technologies.  Thin film gets you into upper teens or maybe low 20's, silicon in the mid 20's, and III-V multijunction cells are in the mid 40's.

Then there's the whole manufacturing problem.  Has anyone demonstrated a viable strategy for producing graphene in volume?

Edit:  Here's the paper:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140114090833.htm

The paper presents a record of efficiency of a solar cell with graphene of 15.6%. This efficiency exceeds that obtained by combining graphene with silicon, which is the photovoltaic material par excellence. This development is a new milestone for the progress of perovskite solar cells.

[Scout26]

A friend of mine does load balancing, and dispatching for Commonwealth Edison here in Chicago and he absolutely hates Wind.   Exelion is one of the largest producers of Nuclear electricity in the US and is closely affiliated with Comed (All the plants used to be owned by Comed).   He states that the fluctuations caused by the intermittent nature of wind.   He's had to quickly get NG "Peaker Plants" quickly spun up when the 1-2% of electricity coming from wind suddenly drops off or diminishes.

Now Brad, I know that you've drank deep of the Green Kool-Aid since you started your new job, but fluctuations in both the amount and quality of power coming over the lines increase their wear and tear.  

Wind is fine if you want it to power your home and/or business, but it and solar are NOT reliable enough to meet the demands of today's world or even the world of the early 1900's.

[Tallpine]

Not to mention that by taking kinetic energy from the wind we are affecting Global^TM weather patterns 


 

[Gewehr98]

AZRH44 says they slow the earth's rotation, too!   

[lupinus]

AZRH44 says they slow the earth's rotation, too!   

Nahhhh

You just have to make sure they rotate every twelve hours to balance out the effect

[mtnbkr]

Exelion

Exelon.

Chris

[RocketMan]

Headless, I think what Brad is saying is that research is showing conversion efficiencies of about 60% could be attainable.  Those conversion rates have yet to be reached, as the work is still in its early stages.
Information here and here.

edited for grammar.

[Sergeant Bob]

I really do wish they would come up with really cost effective solar power. Such as being incorporated into shingles. I would jump on that in a heartbeat. Probably wouldn't be very cost effective here in the Great White North though.

[Hawkmoon]

Wind is fine if you want it to power your home and/or business, but it and solar are NOT reliable enough to meet the demands of today's world or even the world of the early 1900's.

It all depends on how reliable the wind is.

My wife is from South America. Her native country is making a major push to construct windmill farms for energy production. If it had all the negatives this article suggests, I seriously doubt they'd be going into it so heavily.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Headless, I think what Brad is saying is that research is showing possible conversion efficiencies of about 60% are possible.  Those conversion rates have yet to be reached, as the work is still in its early stages.
Information here and here.

There's a big difference between "theoretically possible someday" and actually getting a real world efficiency of 60%.  If we're going to play the "someday might be possible" game, why bother with imaginary graphene cells?  Imaginary multijunction GaAs cells should be good for something north of 80%.  And imaginary cold fusion reactors trounce 'em both.  

Voila!  We've just solved the world's energy problem.  I trust our Nobel prize is in the mail.  

I've spent the past few years working R&D on next gen solar panels.  Trust me, there's a giant gaping chasm between what is theoretically possible and what can really be built in a real factory for a price that real people are willing to pay.  

The ecovangalists always harp on what's possible, as if possibilities alone can pay the bills or keep the lights on.  It gets... frustrating.

[Firethorn]

Brad, is solar-derived electricity as minor a player in the grid as wind? Or does solar create bigger problems?

From my research, solar is actually beneficial in 'most areas' up until they're supplying around 20% of the total average energy.  'Especially' if it's rooftop. 

The reasoning is that while the grid isn't designed for backfeeding from residential neighborhoods, there's enough steady demand(AC, heating, pumps, fans, vampire loads, computers, people at home during the day) that until you hit that point the energy from solar isn't leaving the neighborhood(so not a problem).  Meanwhile the regional lines to the neighborhoods aren't being pushed as far, lowering transmission losses(resistive and capacitive).  It makes even more sense for businesses that are open mostly during daylight hours - as the sun rises and AC demands and such go up, the panels do their thing to bring the amount of electricity brought to the facility down.

Roughly speaking though, for every customer that more or less zeros out his electricity use via net metering, you need 4 on that segment who don't touch solar at all.  This point has been hit in Hawaii, causing the electric company to actually refuse to allow more solar homes to connect to the grid.  Which means if you want solar panels you need to go 'off the grid' which translates to needing batteries.  With the right adjustments(and the power companies are currently doing this in the appropriate areas) the segments get larger as the engineers make the proper adjustments to the grid to allow efficient backhauling of electricity.

Other tricks would be encouraging things like 'massive home construction' - which refers to MASS, not raw size or volume.  A concrete or brick home with the insulation on the outside has far more mass to absorb/release heat, keeping the air temperature much more stable on the inside, allowing you to run the temperature contol equipment(hot OR cold) only when power is the cheapest.  Which might flip from the night to the day with enough solar out there.

[freakazoid]

Exelion

Exelon.

Chris