Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

[fifth_column]

With respect, the foreign intelligence stuff matters not even a thimbleful of water compared to all the oceans in the world.
<<snip>>
This organization's head admitted to committing perjury under oath when testifying before Congress. They've committed billions of violations of US laws, as well as our Constitution. They will likely cost the US economy tens to hundreds of billions in economic loses. They've become arguably the greatest threat that the United States has ever faced.
<<snip>>

Now that is a statement I can get behind!

The greatest threat to the country is the government, or at least large organizations therein.  If it wasn't for whistle-blowers, and those that refuse to engage in unlawful activities we'd be in much worse shape than we are now.  I'd like to think there is hope for salvation.

[freakazoid]

I personally don't understand why the claim that Snowden's leaks have helped AQ should be received as some sort of wild-assed guess-work, or even totally discredited.    

I'm in agreement with Ben,

You know what, I'll just say it. I actually don't care that Snowden has made things a little easier for Al Queda. At some point we have to draw the line on when freedom is more important than safety. Freedom IS more important than safety. Freedom is also dangerous.

If you want to live in a free society, you have to recognize that you won't always be safe, and that in fact, your freedom may just kill you. If you want to be safe, live in a Big Brother dictatorship where you are monitored 24 hours a day. You'll be safe and provided for. I completely recognize the importance of international intelligence gathering. At some point though, we have to draw the line when intelligence gathering "for the safety of US citizens" has taken one step too far into freedom curtailment. For that matter, as a society that believes in the human right to freedom, we should also recognize when to draw the line when our umbrella approach to intelligence gathering overly infringes on innocent non-US citizens.

[Blakenzy]

So... the lid has arguably been blown of. What consequences do you fellows see?  .gov clearly won't do anything beyond scapegoating and cover-upping, tightening up loose ends... how do you perceive the citizenry taking this up?

[Tallpine]

So... the lid has arguably been blown of. What consequences do you fellows see?  .gov clearly won't do anything beyond scapegoating and cover-upping, tightening up loose ends... how do you perceive the citizenry taking this up?

So ... what's on TV tonight?

[TommyGunn]

With respect, the foreign intelligence stuff matters not even a thimbleful of water compared to all the oceans in the world.

The crimes he has exposed have shaken the United States. The damage the NSA did by bribing RSA to weaken its cryptographic programs can't even be calculated. Ditto the wiretapping of Google's data centers. The Verizon leak may or may not have been significant, but Boundless Informant leak taught us that the NSA is systematically targeting US citizens. It acknowledged 3+ billion segments of intelligence information on US citizens. Upstream, which is illegal wiretaps on US fiber optic backbones. XKeyscore, yet another program that spies on American internet usage. The leaks that showed the NSA violated even their own rules, which are highly illegal and unconstitutional, 2,776 times between March 2011 and March 2012. The leaks showed hundred million dollar bribes to telcos. The leaks show that the NSA routine provides intelligence on US citizen to foreign countries. Leaks that they illegally monitor the SWIFT network. Minaret leak, that the NSA and other intelligence companies illegally monitored Sen. Frank Church when he was running the Church Commission that was looking into illegal conduct committed by the intelligence committee. SYANPSE leak, illegally mapping US citizens' social media contacts and email contact lists. Leaks about NSA talking points lying about terrorism justifying the agency's surveillance programs as well as lying about legality of various projects.

This organization's head admitted to committing perjury under oath when testifying before Congress. They've committed billions of violations of US laws, as well as our Constitution. They will likely cost the US economy tens to hundreds of billions in economic loses. They've become arguably the greatest threat that the United States has ever faced.

And you're arguing that he committed treason for exposing this, because a number of his leaks exposed various legal and illegal foreign conduct?


Uhm. Yes?

In fairness, some were misidentified targets. It happens. Others were intentional strikes, because that's when clans get together. At social functions that outweigh everyday security concerns. Also, we have intentionally killed Americans because we believed they were probably terrorists, and in other cases because they were in the same building as suspected terrorists. Holder flatly admitted a US citizen minor was killed intentionally by the US government "for being in the wrong place." As we do not have corruption of blood (this is specifically a no-no under the Constitution), everyone involved should have been dragged up on murder charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-killed-my-grandson.html?_r=0

The government's stance is that if you're killed, your family has no standing to sue.

Holy cr@p, Revdisk.

If you want to define "associating" loosely enough then pretty much everyone in a large number of countries is a viable target.

And just so we're clear, you've switched from denying it happened, to denying it was deliberate, to saying it was ok now right? Hard to keep track.

I don't want to "define" associating so loosely that "anyone" qualifies as a target.   And I wasn't trying to say it was "right" to blow up an innocent wedding party, I was saying it was a bad mistake but ought not hamper our efforts against AQ.

However, if the war effort has become so mucked up and our goals have become so corrupted as some in this thread have pointed out, then perhaps we really ought to pull out of A'stan & Iraq and try to re evaluate what our country should stand for.
We are already allowing AQ to build up in North Africa and the mideast so I doubt it would really change a lot anyway; President Obama seems dead-set on ending the war which will give the Islamists a far greater opportunity than ever before to expand their territories.
It will also, I fear, have bad ramifications for our future in America. 
Without an avowed external enemy to worry about, our expanded surveillance agencies will certainly turn their attentions inward -- as some here suggest they already have.  I don't think they have for the large part, but they will....if you want to rake me over the coals again and point out (again) all the assaults against our privacy, fine, just keep in mind what I am saying;

YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING  ...YET.

Compared to what's coming in the future, that is.
Have fun...and keep your powder dry.

[TommyGunn]

Sending drones into a foreign country that we are not at war with like Pakistan to blow up people is an act of terrorism. Even if we hope that maybe there's a bad guy at that wedding and the 30 innocent men women and children we kill are just acceptable collateral damage. The US fed.gov is rapidly coming up on killing as many non-combatants in terrorist attacks as AQ killed on 9/11.

No, sending drones in  is an act in the prosecution of a war we've been fighting for over a decade.  That you don't agree with some of our policies doesn't entitle you to claim it's terrorism.

BUT WAIT, I kind of half remember someone on a totally non-biased tv show who said Snowden was a traitor so obviously it's totes the truth. And how dare you ask me to provide some type of evidence beyond a half remembered unqualified 3rd party saying something on tv?!?!?! This ain't college. Obviously you're an Al Qaeda sympathizer if you don't believe me.

How do you know the guy was unqualified?  You have the right not to accept the veracity of what I said but without knowing who the "expert" was you have no way of knowing what his bona fides were.  
As for "biased TV show" it was Fox News.  They are not perfect but they're a LOT better than MSNBC and CNN.

Yes, yes we have. Because Obama really believed that a Bad Guy was there. And we counted any Military Aged Male who happened to be there as well as a terrorist.

I saw some guy on tv who said so therefore it must be true.

   I wish I had an eidetic memory sometimes.   

[Balog]

So if the Russians find a Chechen who slipped across the Mexican border into America and blow up a wedding in say Iowa in order to kill him that's ok right? If our "War on Terror" gives America free reign to kill anyone we want in any country then logically that extends to other countries right? Or is America so sooper special that when we bomb other so reign nations it's ok but no one else can do it?

[JN01]

But this is all thread drift... So, again, I'll ask you... what has Snowden revealed that has A.) helped al qaeda, and B.) cannot be found in another source, such as the aforementioned huge amounts of tell all books, leaks (inadvertant or deliberate) by congress, etc?

So Snowden risked prosecution and fled to another country in order to reveal information that had already been released? 

I'm not sure how I feel about him.  Exposing corruption is a good thing, but I'm not sure about his methods.  Did he carefully pick what information he exposed, or did he indiscriminately turn over anything he could get his hands on?  What information has he held back, will he release it, and what will the impact of that be?

It is ironic that a guy who is worried about the government stepping on citizens liberties would seek asylum in countries like China and Russia.

So... the lid has arguably been blown of. What consequences do you fellows see?  .gov clearly won't do anything beyond scapegoating and cover-upping, tightening up loose ends..

Yeah, I don't really see the spy guys stopping what they are doing, they will just find another way to do it.  So will anything Snowden did have a lasting effect in the long term big picture?

[Fitz]

So Snowden risked prosecution and fled to another country in order to reveal information that had already been released? 

I'm not sure how I feel about him.  Exposing corruption is a good thing, but I'm not sure about his methods.  Did he carefully pick what information he exposed, or did he indiscriminately turn over anything he could get his hands on?  What information has he held back, will he release it, and what will the impact of that be?

It is ironic that a guy who is worried about the government stepping on citizens liberties would seek asylum in countries like China and Russia.

Yeah, I don't really see the spy guys stopping what they are doing, they will just find another way to do it.  So will anything Snowden did have a lasting effect in the long term big picture?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that most of the foreign stuff he released that I've seen isn't new info. THe domestic *expletive deleted*it is all new, but I don't see how much if any of that helps AQ.

As for what he's released, there was some talk from NSA high ups about granting him amnesty BECAUSE of what he HASNT released yet, so I think he's showing some discretion.

[freakazoid]

President Obama seems dead-set on ending the war which will give the Islamists a far greater opportunity than ever before to expand their territories.

As opposed to before the war?

No, sending drones in  is an act in the prosecution of a war we've been fighting for over a decade.  That you don't agree with some of our policies doesn't entitle you to claim it's terrorism.

I don't think it was the merely sending in the drones part that made it an act of terrorism, although even that could be debated I think.

[Tallpine]

No, sending drones in  is an act in the prosecution of a war we've been fighting for over a decade.  That you don't agree with some of our policies doesn't entitle you to claim it's terrorism.

Well, heck - hijacking planes and flying them into buildings was just another act in the prosecution of the Islamic war against the infidels 


I suspect "terrorism" has a slightly different definition depending on whether you are the terrorist or the terroree 

[Ron]

TommyGunn,

The GOP is not going to save us, change anything important if they regain power nor slow down the elimination of our rights.

They are every bit as much a part of the problem as the Dems.

You've been played. Your true patriotism and love of our nation has been used to co-opt you into supporting a political party that is every bit as noxious and anti constitutional as the Democrats.

  

[Blakenzy]

It is ironic that a guy who is worried about the government stepping on citizens liberties would seek asylum in countries like China and Russia.

I think it is very ironic that a person who has exposed corruption and wrong doing against US citizens has to seek personal safety in countries like China and Russia.

What does that say about our Government?

[TommyGunn]

TommyGunn,

The GOP is not going to save us, change anything important if they regain power nor slow down the elimination of our rights.

They are every bit as much a part of the problem as the Dems.

You've been played. Your true patriotism and love of our nation has been used to co-opt you into supporting a political party that is every bit as noxious and anti constitutional as the Democrats.

   I said somewhere the repubs were gonna save us?
If Dubya had prosecuted the war as I think he should have it would be over -- would have been over -- before Obama became president.  At this point the republicans are only the lesser of two evils.  Unfortunatly they are the only possible alternative party to the dems.  If the libertarians would get off their obsession with legalizing drugs then maybe they might become a realistic possibility.

[TommyGunn]

So if the Russians find a Chechen who slipped across the Mexican border into America and blow up a wedding in say Iowa in order to kill him that's ok right? If our "War on Terror" gives America free reign to kill anyone we want in any country then logically that extends to other countries right? Or is America so sooper special that when we bomb other so reign nations it's ok but no one else can do it?

And if the Klingons are attacked by the Andorians who take up residence in a secret compound in Nebraska the Klingons have a natural right to blow up Planet Earth in revenge for being dissed.
Only James T. Kirk can save us.

Balog; "Inter arma enim silent leges."    It's a quote from Cicero.   

[freakazoid]

If the libertarians would get off their obsession with legalizing drugs then maybe they might become a realistic possibility.

I'm pretty sure that is not the focus of their platform.

[TommyGunn]

Well, heck - hijacking planes and flying them into buildings was just another act in the prosecution of the Islamic war against the infidels 


I suspect "terrorism" has a slightly different definition depending on whether you are the terrorist or the terroree 

So what?   Bin Laden may have believed in his own mind what he did was fully justified and probably inspired by Allah, but that doesn't mean he was right or that Allah had anything to do with it.

I'm pretty sure that is not the focus of their platform.

I didn't say it was, but unfortunatly a lot of people associate libertarianism with legalizing drugs.

[TommyGunn]

President Obama seems dead-set on ending the war which will give the Islamists a far greater opportunity than ever before to expand their territories.

As opposed to before the war?

I think a great deal of AQ's expansion has happened in the past half decade or so.
But it is possible the way Bush Jr. prosecuted the war gave AQ the necessity & ability to flee from A'stan which might have been seen as a defeat at first.  Theoretically AQ could have used it as an excuse to decentralize and start up training camps across N. Africa and adjoining areas ...  I mean, aside from the natural aggressive desire of the Jihadis to expand their areas in search of a caliphate.

[Fitz]

As opposed to before the war?

I think a great deal of AQ's expansion has happened in the past half decade or so.
But it is possible the way Bush Jr. prosecuted the war gave AQ the necessity & ability to flee from A'stan which might have been seen as a defeat at first.  Theoretically AQ could have used it as an excuse to decentralize and start up training camps across N. Africa and adjoining areas ...  I mean, aside from the natural aggressive desire of the Jihadis to expand their areas in search of a caliphate.

AQ had a well established presence in africa long before the war in A-stan

[TommyGunn]

AQ had a well established presence in africa long before the war in A-stan

Was it as "established" as it is now?   From what I've heard AQ has expanded into a number of areas that it hadn't penetrated until fairly recently...I sorta thought N. Africa was one of them; I am including other terrorist organizations that are, shall we say, "allied" with AQ such as the group that attacked our diplomats in Benghazi.   

[Fitz]

Was it as "established" as it is now?   From what I've heard AQ has expanded into a number of areas that it hadn't penetrated until fairly recently...I sorta thought N. Africa was one of them; I am including other terrorist organizations that are, shall we say, "allied" with AQ such as the group that attacked our diplomats in Benghazi.   

Correlation != causation. The very nature of terrorist organizations is that they shift.

But anyways, AQ and similar orgs have a long history in africa.

[RevDisk]

Holy cr@p, Revdisk.

I know, I understated the case. I'm kinda busy this week. I skipped over a lot of material.

In seriousness, anyone in the know knows not to cross the NSA. The CEO of Qwest learned that the hard way. He refused to play ball with illegal wiretapping, coincidentally went to jail for alleged insider trading and the US govt doesn't allow any of the NSA blackmail into evidence as it's classified. So did anyone foolish enough to work within the system as a whistleblower.

With respect, I don't think you or most people here understand. This isn't bad, it's just a lack of first hand experience. During my time in the military and government, I have worked with the NSA on a couple of occasions. Hell, when I was about 15 or so, I called them up, asked them to send me some books and they did. They sent me two meters of books, which took up an entire bookshelf of my youth. Even threw in some photocopies of some interesting open papers and whatnot. I joined the Army, went into Signal, and dealt with them on a regular basis because they handle the military's crypto.

Each and every single NSA employee I have ever met has been intelligent, thoughtful, competent, decent human being with a sense of humor. You have no idea how terrifying that was and is. Everyone on this board that worked for or with any part of the US government would find this as unnerving as I did. The NSA is more dangerous than any other part of the US government, including the military. For one simple reason. They're competent. Period, end of sentence. That should chill anyone to their very bones. Competency is bred out of any US government organization, in the long term. People that are intelligent, innovative, competent and generally decent human beings don't rise up the ranks and rarely end up as government lifers.

Historically, the NSA stuck to its knitting. Yes, they crossed the line here and there. But rarely and virtually never got caught. For decades, they were "No Such Agency" and black as a coal mine. The fact that they're making the news on a near daily basis is a complete 180 from their roots.

I suspect the decent individuals will start leaving. Any that stay will be less moral and decent. Competence will slip, because the less moral kind tend to be less intelligent, dynamic and innovative. But they'll still have a treasure trove of blackmail material that will put J. Edgar Hoover to shame. The NSA has been collecting dirt on politicians for a very long time. Decades of records. Ask Michael D. Barnes.

It's one reason why they hoover up so much US related material. Today's kid on FB may become tomorrow's Senator, billionaire tech CEO or maybe just a janitor that cleans the toilets at Realtek in Taiwan when the NSA wants to steal their signing certificate to assist the development a virus to slow down Iran's nuclear development. Yes, that would be Stuxnet. The NSA was wiretapping President Obama long before ANYONE thought he would ever become POTUS.

Funny part. I'm not sure how much I helped the NSA do all of these things. At DISA, I maintained infrastructure for the DoD and intel community. You're never supposed to know the contents of the stuff you handle, and 99% of the time, I never did. Well, except for the zOS IBM mainframe that processed their budget. That was a "fun" day.

Kinda 1984. I helped them build the platforms they used to spy on me and everyone I know. Oh, nothing complex or Jason Bourne. Swapping hard drives, rebooting routers, etc. Very mundane tasks.  

I don't want to "define" associating so loosely that "anyone" qualifies as a target.   And I wasn't trying to say it was "right" to blow up an innocent wedding party, I was saying it was a bad mistake but ought not hamper our efforts against AQ.

*shrug*

Couple points, sir.

1. You may not even know you're associated with real or perceived terrorists.
2. You don't have to be associated with terrorists to be a target.
3. You're assuming folks don't make mistakes. See children and US senators ending up on the No Fly list.

I'm not against intelligence, drone strikes or other such activities. I believe they need to handled better, and that US citizens should not be the targets. The US military and intel community should be our watch dogs, not our masters. This is not an insult, but an honor. If they bite their owner however, there's no choice but to replace them.  

At the moment, there is no oversight or accountability. None, zero. There are some ceremonial rubber stamps, that is all. Unlimited reach with no limits makes one sloppy, and lose focus. It shows, badly.


Btw, I apologize in advance if I sound patronizing or if I seem to be raking you over the coals, TommyGunn. Just that this sort of thing used to be more of my life than most and I kinda take it personal. Well, more accurately, this sort of thing *expletive deleted*ed my life.

[Balog]

And if the Klingons are attacked by the Andorians who take up residence in a secret compound in Nebraska the Klingons have a natural right to blow up Planet Earth in revenge for being dissed.
Only James T. Kirk can save us.

Balog; "Inter arma enim silent leges."    It's a quote from Cicero.   

So because we've declared an open ended war that definitionally cannot be won, we are morally in the right to kill anyone in any country in any way in your mind? What exactly is the difference in America blowing up innocents in a foreign country, and some other country doing the same? You just shrug and say "Meh, it's my country so we can slaughter all the women and children we feel like and I'm ok with it."

[Ben]

Excellent synopsis Revdisk.

[Fitz]

RevDisk just gave al qaeda insight into our intelligence apparatus.

He's a traitor and should be punished