Author Topic: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize  (Read 41952 times)

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #175 on: February 02, 2014, 06:55:34 PM »
W. Horseradish, I've seen no better answers from you than you claim I've been able to provide you.
YOU tell me when this war will end.
If we weren't supposed to attack AQ & Taliban in response to 9/11, what would you have done?
Quote from: White Horseradish
Quote from: Tommygunn
What is the difference between concept & belief that is earth-shakingly important in  the context of this thread?

You tell me. You are the one that brought it up. I was perfectly happy calling it a belief.


Quote from: White Horseradish
It's not a belief, it's a concept. Got it.

Mr error.   I thought "It's not a belief, it's a concept. Got it"  was declarative, not sarcasm.

Quote from: White Horseradish
Quote from: TommyGunn
You claim we fight it by killing those who subscribe to it
No. You claim we fight it that way. If you can't remember your own words, look up the thread.

 
Quote from: White Horseradish, Feb 1, 2014, 11:14:07PM
And you fight it by killing the people that subscribe to it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is from YOUR statement.  YOU said it.  Maybe you just didn't remember it?  Or perhaps you were being sarcastic?    If you don't believe you said it, check out your quote below, I included the time stamp to make it real easy.

Quote from: White Horseradish
Quote from: TommyGunn
So you can't kill concepts and beliefs.  There are still new Nazis around despite Patton's, Eisenhower's, and FDR's best efforts, but no one says they are a threat to us.  You can still buy Hitler's Mein Kampf in bookstores (well, not in Germany maybe) but few worry about it and consider it only a historical artifact of a brutal dictator.
The war was not with the concept of National Socialism. The war was with Germany and it's allies, not all of whom subscribed to the ideology.


I didn't say the war was against National Socialism.   I've reread the statement I made there and don't for the life of me get how you managed to get that meaning out of it.


Quote from: White Horseradish
Quote
Certainly there must be someone up in military intel....somewhere....state dept. (Ack!)  that can recognize the end of a war when he(she) sees it.  

Commendable faith, but without any basis in reality.

So everyone in .gov. is stupid?

Quote from: White Horseradish
Seriously, the people who are awaiting Rapture are on more solid ground than you. They at least know what they are waiting for

You're not even on loose ground here -- the rapture is a myth.
You don't have to like my answers.   I obviously don't like yours.  

All I would really like to know in this thread is how those who believe what we're doing is wrong would have dealt with AQ.   It's easy to criticize Drone Attacks when they kill one terrorist and ten innocent people.
Unless one can suggest some other equally effective or better way to do things it's pretty cheap to simply criticize and complain  that those who disagree engage in fallacies, etc.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #176 on: February 02, 2014, 07:22:57 PM »
YOU tell me when this war will end.
Maybe never. You can't reach a goal when you don't know what that goal is. At best, it will end, like Vietnam, when there is enough of public derision for it in the US and we just recall the troops and say we're done.

Quote
If we weren't supposed to attack AQ & Taliban in response to 9/11, what would you have done?
We didn't attack either of them. We attacked Iraq instead. Saddam was a *expletive deleted*bag, but he was not a member of AQ. Hell, he wasn't even particularly religious.

A much smaller scale effort to find the exact people responsible and bring them to justice would have been more appropriate, IMO. Israelis managed it with the Nazis, since you are so fond of WWII examples.  And they did it without wiping out piles of random civilians and invading countries.

Quote
I didn't say the war was against National Socialism.   I've reread the statement I made there and don't for the life of me get how you managed to get that meaning out of it.
You say "There are still new Nazis around despite Patton's, Eisenhower's, and FDR's best efforts"
Nazis are members of the National Socialist Workers Party and believers in the National Socialist ideology. The parallel you are drawing is with believers in the ideology of armed jihad. Except that war was declared not on the National Socialist Workers party, or National Socialism, it was declared on Germany and it's allies. And it was Germany and Japan that surrendered.
 
Quote
So everyone in .gov. is stupid?
I don't know that. Being stupid and not knowing something aren't the same thing, though.

Quote
You're not even on loose ground here -- the rapture is a myth.
So far, given your inability to explain what it is, the victory in this war also seems to be a myth.

Quote
You don't have to like my answers.  
You don't really have answers to the main questions I'm asking.


Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #177 on: February 02, 2014, 07:41:11 PM »
Quote from: White Horseradish
We didn't attack either of them. We attacked Iraq instead. Saddam was a *expletive deleted*, but he was not a member of AQ. Hell, he wasn't even particularly religious.


What the **** kind of statement was THAT?  I am pretty sure I remember American Forces going into A'stan .........
Statements like this make me think this website is in The Twilight Zone for sure.

Quote from: White Horseradish
A much smaller scale effort to find the exact people responsible and bring them to justice would have been more appropriate, IMO. Israelis managed it with the Nazis, since you are so fond of WWII examples.  And they did it without wiping out piles of random civilians and invading countries.


OK, FINALLY  a actual real answer.  

Quote from: White Horseradish
You say "There are still new Nazis around despite Patton's, Eisenhower's, and FDR's best efforts"
Nazis are members of the National Socialist Workers Party and believers in the National Socialist ideology. The parallel you are drawing is with believers in the ideology of armed jihad. Except that war was declared not on the National Socialist Workers party, or National Socialism, it was declared on Germany and it's allies. And it was Germany and Japan that surrendered.


Yes, becaus we WEREN'T making war on a concept or belief ... or whatever.   Patton's best efforts weren't after "Nazi-sim" they were against the German Army.   To put a fine point on it, Patton retained a number of known Nazis in lower offices after the war ended because he realized they had been forcibly impressed into the Nazi system, and also that if he removed every "Nazi" just to be vindictive, the whole structure of what was left of the German beuracracy would collapse, making a bad messy situation even worse.
Same in Japan; we were fighting the Japanese Army.

 ???    You still seem to be reading me upside down or backwards or something. ???

Quote from: W.H.
You don't really have answers to the main questions I'm asking.


No I don't: I also don't have a crystal ball.   Or a Ouja Board.  
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #178 on: February 02, 2014, 07:51:48 PM »
They hate us for our freedoms, so all we have to do is get rid of our freedoms.  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #179 on: February 02, 2014, 07:53:09 PM »
They hate us for our freedoms, so all we have to do is get rid of our freedoms.  ;)

Washington DC or Al Qaeda?  >:D
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Bigjake

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,024
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #180 on: February 02, 2014, 07:58:27 PM »
They hate us for our freedoms, so all we have to do is get rid of our freedoms.  ;)

In that case,  we win!  'Murica!!

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #181 on: February 02, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
Washington DC or Al Qaeda?  >:D

Yes!   
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #182 on: February 02, 2014, 08:41:12 PM »
Yes, becaus we WEREN'T making war on a concept or belief ... or whatever.   Patton's best efforts weren't after "Nazi-sim" they were against the German Army.   To put a fine point on it, Patton retained a number of known Nazis in lower offices after the war ended because he realized they had been forcibly impressed into the Nazi system, and also that if he removed every "Nazi" just to be vindictive, the whole structure of what was left of the German beuracracy would collapse, making a bad messy situation even worse.
Same in Japan; we were fighting the Japanese Army.

Exactly. It is exactly unlike the current situation. Why did you bring it up if it's completely different?

 
No I don't: I also don't have a crystal ball.   Or a Ouja Board.  
Since when is either one of those required to set a goal?

You do realize I'm not talking about a date, but about some condition or event?

Seriously, what is so hard about this? Would you play a game not knowing how winning is defined? Would you bet money not knowing what the condition of winning is? (By the way, if the answer is yes, I want to play a game with you. You give me money, and then I tell you if you won or not. I'll know I won when I see it. )

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #183 on: February 02, 2014, 09:42:54 PM »
Fezzik: Inigo?

Inigo Montoya: What?

Fezzik: I hope we win.

Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,623
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #184 on: February 02, 2014, 10:12:53 PM »
I would sooner see Islamic civilization snuffed out and forever shattered than see the same happen to Western Civilization.
That's a false dichotomy.

And it would not be a campaign of terror, but of mass killing, destruction, displacement, and colonization of their lands with Western peoples.
A rose by any other name ...
You realize that you literally just defined genocide, right?

The sort of thing that happened pretty regularly in history.
Oh, well then that makes it okay.

The sort of thing that Western Civ largely put an end to...but may be necessary for its survival. 
The sort of thing that would change Western Civilization to merely Western.  Put another way, whatever good Western Civilization is would be lost were they to play out your fantasy.

[I would note that it would be the same sort of thing Islam did to large stretches of Christendom, Persia, and N India during the muslim expansion starting in the 600s.]
Oh, well then that makes it okay too.

I would hope we could find the stones to do it, were it to come to that.
One of us is in the wrong place, Roo_ster.  When I find myself associating with people who have genocidal wet dreams I need to determine if I am spending my time in the right places.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #185 on: February 02, 2014, 11:19:55 PM »

I'm not sure why folks keep bringing up "Final Solution" rhetoric over and over again. There's 1.62 billion followers of Islam, which is 23%. They'd likely object to genocide, and that's a lot of people. Only 300 million Muslims live in the ME, 250 million Muslims live in Africa, over a billion live in Asia.

Even if we used every nuke in our arsenal and borrowed all of Russia's nukes, you wouldn't get more than about 60% of all Muslims and the rest would be thoroughly justified in any form of retaliation. At the moment, a handful of the 1.62 billion Muslims are active enemies of the US. Maybe about oh, two hundred. Rough guess, could be much lower. That care more about attacking America than any other target. You have about maybe 5,000-10,000 actual hardcore terrorists that don't see the US as a primary concern, but would definitely attack US interests if the opportunity presented itself. Then toss in about a hundred thousand wannabes, suckers, suck ups, useful idiots and other fluff. They're a source of money, supplies, low grade intel and low grade gopher work.

Folks on this board love to flatter themselves that the US is their primary target. It's generally not. It's completely unsurprising that they tend to care about their own neck of the woods far more than distant places they've never seen, but a lot of Americans are shocked at that. This is also why the Sunni wahabbi sect (which includes the Brotherhood, AQ and a hundred other groups) tend to kill oh, twenty or thirty Muslims for every one American. Hasn't anyone stopped and pondered why we've mostly only caught lone nuts? Think of all of the terrorists actually caught since 9/11. How many were actually part of hardcore AQ, Brotherhood or Wahabbi terrorist cells? How many were folks with mental issues, and basically went postal while screaming Allah Akbar? Any that weren't strict loners were teams of ... two?  DC snipers and the Boston bombers are the only "cells" I remember being caught. I remember the FBI breaking up a handful of groups that may have turned into active terrorist cells. I also remember them essentially crafting terrorists from scratch a number of times as well.

Even AQ's masterstroke of 9/11 relied ENTIRELY on outdated thinking. Old days, folks hijacked a plane to send a message. You had a better chance of surviving by just sitting still and waiting for the police/military to handle it. Now, NO ONE is going to hijack a commercial plane and crash it into something. The other passengers would beat them to death in about 30 seconds. Sure, they could switch to something else. Blowing up pipelines, sinking a ship in a major harbor, suicide bombing some malls, whatever. But it's hard and not many people want to travel across the world to blow themselves up, especially when it will bring the wrath of the US military on their network. Safer and simpler to try to go after easier targets.

Instead of spying on ordinary Americans, we'd be best served to take all of that budget and toss the overwhelming majority into screening visa holders, tourists and folks applying for citizenship. Basically looking for general mental health instead of fundamentalism, but that's a large factor. If someone is fundamentalist enough to kill a bunch of innocent folks, they're generally not very right in the head to begin with.


It is interesting to hear the perspective of an insider.  So do you think that the genie can be put back in the bottle?   How do you keep tight reins on the intelligence apparatus?  Is there an effective strategy for getting good, timely, relevant information on our enemies while respecting freedoms, or does one have to be sacrificed for the other?

Everything Gewehr98 said. It boils down to needing a feedback loop. Only major thing I'd suggest differently would be to make it mandatory to refresh folks doing the oversight every X years. FISC judges should only serve 4 years, same with Select Intelligent Committees members, and same with IGs. Decentralized IG, with actual power to do anything other than crushing whistleblowers, is the most important step. They should be empowered to bypass all bureaucracy and report directly to the Select Intelligence Committees, with a mandatory CC to POTUS.



Unless you count the Church Commitee.

I bet they thought what Lincoln did was ireversible too.  Especially after the effects of Reconstruction became known. >:D

Fitz, if we really are a bunch of lazy moronic shitheads, it's lost.  We won't be able to fix it either now or later.
Better hope you're wrong.

NSA spied on the Church Committee, obviously it wasn't that effective.  ;)

Jokes aside. Church Committee did help expose a bunch of illegal programs. Their only meaningful gesture was getting a ban on assassination of political leaders. Rumsfeld, the guy who later became Secretary of Defense, was instrumental in ensuring the Church Committee did not meaningfully curtail intelligence agencies. One of Rumsfeld's minions, Robert Ellsworth, went around downplaying everything. "They were very specific about their effort to destroy American intelligence [capabilities]. It was Senator Church who said our intelligence agencies were 'rogue elephants.' They were supposedly out there assassinating people and playing dirty tricks and so forth... Well, that just wasn't true."  It was a lie back then, as much as it's a lie today.

Our intelligence agencies are still assassinating people without oversight, violating US laws, etc. Oh, there's a couple hoops, which probably make it worse for America because it lends the illusion of legality to their actions. FISA courts are a rubber stamp. Out of 33,949 requests since 1979, they have turned down 11 requests. That's not a typo. They've said "No" 11 times and "Yes" 33,942 times. An astute person might say, hey, those numbers don't seem to match. Yea, that's because the US government said "Pretty please", and the FISA courts said "Well, ok" in 4 of the 11 cases so really they said "No" 7 times. 

That's 0.0002% denial rate, spread across three and a half decades. Or a 99.9998% approval rate. That's an excessively high approval rate for totalitarian states, let alone an allegedly Constitutional republic. I'd almost rather we shut down the FISA courts and let the intel folks do their stuff illegally. At least it'd be more honest.



There's a bloody good reason why the NSA was monitoring Senator Church. Because he told us today's headlines nearly 40 years ago.

"In the need to develop a capacity to know what potential enemies are doing, the United States government has perfected a technological capability that enables us to monitor the messages that go through the air. Now, that is necessary and important to the United States as we look abroad at enemies or potential enemies. We must know, at the same time, that capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left such is the capability to monitor everything—telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide.

If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."
-Senator Frank Church (August 17, 1975)
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #186 on: February 03, 2014, 09:59:38 AM »
5)  Grow a pair and go back to the Eisenhower Doctrine of Massive Retaliation.

This.  When someone attacks, and you show the world a cratered wasteland where they used to live, nobody wants to be next just to make a statement.

I'll grant that it takes a lot to make some of these countries more wastelandish, but it's worth it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 10:07:20 AM by KD5NRH »

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #187 on: February 03, 2014, 11:47:38 AM »
Exactly. It is exactly unlike the current situation. Why did you bring it up if it's completely different?

 Since when is either one of those required to set a goal?

You do realize I'm not talking about a date, but about some condition or event?

Seriously, what is so hard about this? Would you play a game not knowing how winning is defined? Would you bet money not knowing what the condition of winning is? (By the way, if the answer is yes, I want to play a game with you. You give me money, and then I tell you if you won or not. I'll know I won when I see it. )



"What's so hard" about it is I don't know WHAT SPECIFIC EVENT would be.   Again to the tired WW2 analogy; it's like expecting me to know the name of the Battleship the treaty will be signed on, what deck, where on the deck, where the ship will be.....when it can't even be gauranteed the ship will survive the war.
Our goal in Vietnam was to prevent S. Vietnam from falling into the communist world.  We lost that war because we did not obtain that result, irregardless of how many battles we won on the ground.
This whole question is moot since it seems our fearless leader is throwing in the towel anyway.
I suppose that, had I to guess, were we to continue the war we would eventualy run out of viable targets.  There can only be so many members of AQ.  There would always be stragglers but they -- presumably -- would no longer constitute a viable force.


Quote
Exactly. It is exactly unlike the current situation. Why did you bring it up if it's completely different?

I keep trying to explain that inspite of what I consider nonsensitical public rhetoric for the masses, and in spite of Dubya's service medal, we are conducting a war against AQ & the Taliban.  
Earlier wars were fought by politicians who used nonsense rhetoric as well.  "The war to make the world safe for democracy," was one of them.   Do you think that was possible?   We sure don't have a world that's "safe" for democracy -- or any othe ocracy, today, do we?
And yes, fighting WW2 was unlike fighting AQ.
A closer analogy, I suppose, would be the Barbary Wars of the early 19th century, conducted against pirates, not countries.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 11:54:14 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #188 on: February 03, 2014, 12:28:41 PM »
"What's so hard" about it is I don't know WHAT SPECIFIC EVENT would be.   Again to the tired WW2 analogy; it's like expecting me to know the name of the Battleship the treaty will be signed on, what deck, where on the deck, where the ship will be.....when it can't even be gauranteed the ship will survive the war.

  All those answer the question of "where?" (on a ship, deck, etc). I'm not asking "where". I'm asking "what?" 

The WWII (or any declared war) answer to this is "surrender". What is the answer here?


Quote
Our goal in Vietnam was to prevent S. Vietnam from falling into the communist world.  We lost that war because we did not obtain that result, irregardless of how many battles we won on the ground.
Right. We lost it because we gave up and went home. Which is what I think is a very likely end to this. However, I'm not asking how this is likely to end. I'm asking how we would know we won.


Quote
A closer analogy, I suppose, would be the Barbary Wars of the early 19th century, conducted against pirates, not countries.
Actually, they were conducted against the Barbary States, which were Tripoli, Algiers and Tunis. And they ended in treaties with rulers of those states. They also had goals  - freeing the hostages, monetary restitution, and not paying tribute. Once those things happened (no matter where or when), it could reasonably be said the US won.



Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #189 on: February 03, 2014, 12:36:40 PM »
Quote
What is the answer here?

Paucity of enemies? [tinfoil]

As I've already said though this is really moot as Obama is doing: "Right. We lost it because we gave up and went home. Which is what I think is a very likely end to this. However, I'm not asking how this is likely to end. I'm asking how we would know we won. "


"Perzactly."
We're giving up and coming home.
That being true, your question will never have an answer.  
It will be pointless to keep prodding for an answer.  At this point speculation is pointless because BOTH of us KNOW that no matter how assinine or brilliant such speculation may be, it will never obtain.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #190 on: February 03, 2014, 02:15:44 PM »
Paucity of enemies? [tinfoil]

That's better. Only thing left to figure out how many is a paucity. Also, how to get there if new ones keep appearing.

"Jefe, would you say that I have a plethora?"  =D

Quote
That being true, your question will never have an answer.  
So this war cannot be won. Which is what I (and a couple of other folks) have been saying all along.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #191 on: February 03, 2014, 07:14:05 PM »

That's better. Only thing left to figure out how many is a paucity. Also, how to get there if new ones keep appearing.

"Jefe, would you say that I have a plethora?"  =D
So this war cannot be won. Which is what I (and a couple of other folks) have been saying all along.

Minor correction:  Obama is throwing in the towel.
Not that it makes a lot of difference ... really.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #192 on: February 03, 2014, 07:25:43 PM »
Minor correction:  Obama is throwing in the towel.
Not that it makes a lot of difference ... really.
Nope, it does not. Anyone else would do the same thing, since it's the only practical thing that can be done.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #193 on: February 03, 2014, 08:01:09 PM »
Right after (helped) we overthrow the Taliban would have been the time to leave.  "Here's the keys to your country, let another group of shiiteheads take over, and it will get ugly."

I do remember a quote from an Air Force General shortly after 9/11, is was something to the effect of "Yes, we can bomb them back to the Stone Age, it'll take about 10 minutes, but then what?"

Because that's what were up against, a 6th Century philosophy and way of life.  We ain't gonna make them Jeffersonian's anytime in the near future.  The best we can do is:  Stop sending them money by developing our own energy resources.  Which could have the following potential effects:
1)  Their ability to pacify their people with the current "Bread and Circuses" that use to keep their populations in line, will be dramatically reduced.
2)  Contrary to popular belief, it ain't the poor that go out on Jihad, it's some rich bastard that gets them stoked up and sends them out to die for Allah, while providing them with food, shelter and spending cash.  Bin-Laden wasn't some beggar, he had mounds of cash.  Same with Saddam sending checks to the families of homicide bombers.  And Iran sponsoring Hezbullah and a couple of other Jihadi type groups.  Cut off the cash, cut off the threat.
3)  Idle hands are the devils workshop, so lots of suddenly unemployed Arabian Utes, and the "Arab Spring" really goes viral in places like Saudi Arabia.
4)  Oh, and we can tell them to GFThemselves, food is now 2x or 5x the price of a barrel of oil.  Get Canada and Argentina in on it, and form OFEC.  (Organization of Food Exporting Countries.)  Enjoy eating your oil.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #194 on: February 03, 2014, 08:36:52 PM »
Right after (helped) we overthrow the Taliban would have been the time to leave.  "Here's the keys to your country, let another group of shiiteheads take over, and it will get ugly."

I do remember a quote from an Air Force General shortly after 9/11, is was something to the effect of "Yes, we can bomb them back to the Stone Age, it'll take about 10 minutes, but then what?"

Because that's what were up against, a 6th Century philosophy and way of life.  We ain't gonna make them Jeffersonian's anytime in the near future.  The best we can do is:  Stop sending them money by developing our own energy resources.  Which could have the following potential effects:
1)  Their ability to pacify their people with the current "Bread and Circuses" that use to keep their populations in line, will be dramatically reduced.
2)  Contrary to popular belief, it ain't the poor that go out on Jihad, it's some rich bastard that gets them stoked up and sends them out to die for Allah, while providing them with food, shelter and spending cash.  Bin-Laden wasn't some beggar, he had mounds of cash.  Same with Saddam sending checks to the families of homicide bombers.  And Iran sponsoring Hezbullah and a couple of other Jihadi type groups.  Cut off the cash, cut off the threat.
3)  Idle hands are the devils workshop, so lots of suddenly unemployed Arabian Utes, and the "Arab Spring" really goes viral in places like Saudi Arabia.
4)  Oh, and we can tell them to GFThemselves, food is now 2x or 5x the price of a barrel of oil.  Get Canada and Argentina in on it, and form OFEC.  (Organization of Food Exporting Countries.)  Enjoy eating your oil.

Yup. A strictly "military" solution to islamic extremism isn't really possible IMO. You have to deincentivize the activity.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #195 on: February 03, 2014, 09:47:51 PM »
Clearly, Mr Ciaramella hates america and loves terrorists.

https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2014/feb/03/dea-parallel-construction-guides/
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #196 on: February 03, 2014, 11:01:15 PM »
"Jefe, would you say that I have a plethora?"  =D

That would be "Three Amigos"! =D
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #197 on: February 03, 2014, 11:17:57 PM »
Right after (helped) we overthrow the Taliban would have been the time to leave.  "Here's the keys to your country, let another group of shiiteheads take over, and it will get ugly."

I do remember a quote from an Air Force General shortly after 9/11, is was something to the effect of "Yes, we can bomb them back to the Stone Age, it'll take about 10 minutes, but then what?"

Because that's what were up against, a 6th Century philosophy and way of life.  We ain't gonna make them Jeffersonian's anytime in the near future.  The best we can do is:  Stop sending them money by developing our own energy resources.   Which could have the following potential effects:
1)  Their ability to pacify their people with the current "Bread and Circuses" that use to keep their populations in line, will be dramatically reduced.
2)  Contrary to popular belief, it ain't the poor that go out on Jihad, it's some rich bastard that gets them stoked up and sends them out to die for Allah, while providing them with food, shelter and spending cash.  Bin-Laden wasn't some beggar, he had mounds of cash.  Same with Saddam sending checks to the families of homicide bombers.  And Iran sponsoring Hezbullah and a couple of other Jihadi type groups.  Cut off the cash, cut off the threat.
3)  Idle hands are the devils workshop, so lots of suddenly unemployed Arabian Utes, and the "Arab Spring" really goes viral in places like Saudi Arabia.
4)  Oh, and we can tell them to GFThemselves, food is now 2x or 5x the price of a barrel of oil.  Get Canada and Argentina in on it, and form OFEC.  (Organization of Food Exporting Countries.)  Enjoy eating your oil.


That's one of the better ideas propounded here Scout26 .... now, if we could get Herr Obama to listen to it...... ;/


"OFEC" ....that's pretty good too.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #198 on: February 04, 2014, 01:42:45 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAEjvT-Ri8

NSA is now releasing Public Service Announcements.    =D
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #199 on: February 04, 2014, 01:48:16 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAEjvT-Ri8

NSA is now releasing Public Service Announcements.    =D

Oooooops 
"An error occured. Please try again later."

Maybe the NSA wasn't so keen on these PSAs after all ....  [tinfoil]
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero