Author Topic: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize  (Read 42036 times)

Tallpine

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2014, 12:33:38 PM »
Quote
I really wish people would stop treating the errors and mistakes we make in the field as though it was actually our government's policy.

 :rofl:
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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2014, 12:51:25 PM »
So. Tallpine, I am to understand you believe we deliberatly launched Hellfire missiles on Muslim Wedding parties?


MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Balog

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2014, 12:55:55 PM »
Sending drones into a foreign country that we are not at war with like Pakistan to blow up people is an act of terrorism. Even if we hope that maybe there's a bad guy at that wedding and the 30 innocent men women and children we kill are just acceptable collateral damage. The US fed.gov is rapidly coming up on killing as many non-combatants in terrorist attacks as AQ killed on 9/11.

BUT WAIT, I kind of half remember someone on a totally non-biased tv show who said Snowden was a traitor so obviously it's totes the truth. And how dare you ask me to provide some type of evidence beyond a half remembered unqualified 3rd party saying something on tv?!?!?! This ain't college. Obviously you're an Al Qaeda sympathizer if you don't believe me.

So. Tallpine, I am to understand you believe we deliberatly launched Hellfire missiles on Muslim Wedding parties?




Yes, yes we have. Because Obama really believed that a Bad Guy was there. And we counted any Military Aged Male who happened to be there as well as a terrorist.

I saw some guy on tv who said so therefore it must be true.
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Tallpine

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2014, 01:00:52 PM »
So. Tallpine, I am to understand you believe we deliberatly launched Hellfire missiles on Muslim Wedding parties?




Oh, no - I'm sure they "just went off"  =D


And all those assasinations and regime changes were just misunderstandings  :angel:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2014, 01:06:53 PM »
Oh, no - I'm sure they "just went off"  =D


And all those assasinations and regime changes were just misunderstandings  :angel:

What regime changes would those be?  Obama being re-elected?


Yea we DID TKO Saddam Hussein.  He deserved it though -- as did his two misbegotten sons.



Seriously dude if you think we deliberatly whack Islam Weddings then that is some kind of sick, in my book.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Balog

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2014, 01:10:16 PM »
Seriously dude if you think we deliberatly whack Islam Weddings then that is some kind of sick, in my book.

It's true though. They weren't targeted just because it was a wedding ceremony, but we have fired on them before if someone Obama wanted dead was a part of one.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

dogmush

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2014, 01:18:20 PM »

Seriously dude if you think we deliberatly whack Islam Weddings then that is some kind of sick, in my book.

Is this serious?  We absolutely have.  There was a "high value target" (I don't remember the name) that we got intel was coming out of a cave to attend a wedding and we blew said wedding up.

roo_ster

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2014, 01:19:01 PM »
Really?  The CIA is plotting terrorist acts against America and blowing up our buildings and killing innocents? [popcorn]

I really wish people would stop treating the errors and mistakes we make in the field as though it was actually our government's policy.  
It isn't.
Grow up.    

Our policy of assuming every fighting aged male is a terrorist if they happen to be in the blast radius of the missile is a little disturbing.  Mostly form an honesty and a valid numbers collecting/collateral damage assessment POV.  I am less worried about the actual deaths as I figure they are already sympathetic to America-hating scum and killing a few more won't matter much.  All that is not a "mistake we make in the field," it is gov't policy.  Collateral damage and the infliction of it is a choice, not a mistake.  We can choose not to fire.

More importantly, the CIA/NSA/etc. currently, as a matter of policy, treat the whole of the American citizenry as the enemy.  Totalitarian surveillance and data collection is not something you do to a friend or ally.  I figure viewing them as the enemy right back is only fair.  Call them terrorists, secret policemen, enemies of the citizenry, domestic surveillance thugs, vandals of the COTUS, or whatever you will.  They, individually, could have refrained from these unconstitutional acts but chose otherwise.  
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2014, 01:19:07 PM »
It's true though. They weren't targeted just because it was a wedding ceremony, but we have fired on them before if someone Obama wanted dead was a part of one.

OMG!  We killed people who were associating with terrorists!    :facepalm:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

roo_ster

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2014, 01:22:00 PM »
OMG!  We killed people who were associating with terrorists!    :facepalm:

From sign of mental illness ("some kind of sick") to shrugging it off in five posts (only two of which were yours).

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2014, 01:23:11 PM »
Our policy of assuming every fighting aged male is a terrorist if they happen to be in the blast radius of the missile is a little disturbing.  Mostly form an honesty and a valid numbers collecting/collateral damage assessment POV.  I am less worried about the actual deaths as I figure they are already sympathetic to America-hating scum and killing a few more won't matter much.  All that is not a "mistake we make in the field," it is gov't policy.  Collateral damage and the infliction of it is a choice, not a mistake.  We can choose not to fire.

More importantly, the CIA/NSA/etc. currently, as a matter of policy, treat the whole of the American citizenry as the enemy.  Totalitarian surveillance and data collection is not something you do to a friend or ally.  I figure viewing them as the enemy right back is only fair.  Call them terrorists, secret policemen, enemies of the citizenry, domestic surveillance thugs, vandals of the COTUS, or whatever you will.  They, individually, could have refrained from these unconstitutional acts but chose otherwise.  

You know, at first I was going to say that you're very wrong, but then I remembered something and I have to admit, and I must confess you're exactly right.
What was THAT?
Echelon.  
Remeber that?  a program between the UK and America; they'd spy on our electronic communications and we'd spy on theirs?
Because we all know a NICE government doesn't treat its own citizens and spy on them......................


It has a friend do it for them. >:D
Finally something we agree on..................... :P


You remember echelon, don't you?
I'm sure you were out in the streets vigorously protesting it.  :angel:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2014, 01:24:08 PM »
From sign of mental illness ("some kind of sick") to shrugging it off in five posts (only two of which were yours).



We need better sarcasm smilies here.................
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2014, 01:34:42 PM »
What regime changes would those be?  Obama being re-elected?




My understanding was we brought the shah of iran into power
Literally over his dads dead body

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2014, 01:39:45 PM »
OMG!  We killed people who were associating with terrorists!    :facepalm:

If you want to define "associating" loosely enough then pretty much everyone in a large number of countries is a viable target.

And just so we're clear, you've switched from denying it happened, to denying it was deliberate, to saying it was ok now right? Hard to keep track.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tallpine

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2014, 01:45:45 PM »
My understanding was we brought the shah of iran into power
Literally over his dads dead body

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Yeah, the list is so long I can't remember.  A lot of this stuff is now public knowledge after they released some documents a few years back.

IIRC, the Bay of Pigs and the Diem assasination were both CIA operations.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2014, 01:48:23 PM »
Collateral damage and the infliction of it is a choice, not a mistake.  We can choose not to fire.

Just like we can choose to use one of the largest intelligence networks in the world to figure out if there's a Chinese embassy in the way before programming the JDAMs, but that's just too much effort.

TommyGunn

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2014, 02:05:45 PM »
My understanding was we brought the shah of iran into power
Literally over his dads dead body

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


That was decades ago, before the so-called "War on Terror."
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Balog

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Re: Re: Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2014, 02:06:08 PM »

That was decades ago, before the so-called "War on Terror."

What makes you think we've stopped?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2014, 02:17:44 PM »
You know, at first I was going to say that you're very wrong, but then I remembered something and I have to admit, and I must confess you're exactly right.
What was THAT?
Echelon.  
Remeber that?  a program between the UK and America; they'd spy on our electronic communications and we'd spy on theirs?
Because we all know a NICE government doesn't treat its own citizens and spy on them......................


It has a friend do it for them. >:D
Finally something we agree on..................... :P


You remember echelon, don't you?
I'm sure you were out in the streets vigorously protesting it.  :angel:

If you had a point, you might try making it.  Past malfeasance does not make up for present malfeasance in the Spok-without-a-goatee universe.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2014, 02:30:47 PM »
Spock, not Spok.
There are no more points to be made.   This has devolved into a useless thread.  We must agree to disagree.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

KD5NRH

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2014, 02:35:30 PM »
There are no more points to be made.   This has devolved into a useless thread.  We must agree to disagree.

I disagree.

Well, actually I didn't even read what you said.  I'm just being contrarian.

TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »
I disagree.

Well, actually I didn't even read what you said.  I'm just being contrarian.


Yay!!!.    Thread drift.  :laugh:
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RevDisk

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #97 on: January 31, 2014, 03:41:49 PM »
Snowden is as deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize as previous winners Yassir Arafat, Algore, and Barack Hussein Obama.

As for whether he's a hero or traitor . . . releasing information on how fed.gov is spying on Americans (like most of us on this forum) can be plausibly regarded as patriotic . . . but once he started releasing details of our foreign intelligence gathering, IMHO he crossed the line into treasonous territory.

With respect, the foreign intelligence stuff matters not even a thimbleful of water compared to all the oceans in the world.

The crimes he has exposed have shaken the United States. The damage the NSA did by bribing RSA to weaken its cryptographic programs can't even be calculated. Ditto the wiretapping of Google's data centers. The Verizon leak may or may not have been significant, but Boundless Informant leak taught us that the NSA is systematically targeting US citizens. It acknowledged 3+ billion segments of intelligence information on US citizens. Upstream, which is illegal wiretaps on US fiber optic backbones. XKeyscore, yet another program that spies on American internet usage. The leaks that showed the NSA violated even their own rules, which are highly illegal and unconstitutional, 2,776 times between March 2011 and March 2012. The leaks showed hundred million dollar bribes to telcos. The leaks show that the NSA routine provides intelligence on US citizen to foreign countries. Leaks that they illegally monitor the SWIFT network. Minaret leak, that the NSA and other intelligence companies illegally monitored Sen. Frank Church when he was running the Church Commission that was looking into illegal conduct committed by the intelligence committee. SYANPSE leak, illegally mapping US citizens' social media contacts and email contact lists. Leaks about NSA talking points lying about terrorism justifying the agency's surveillance programs as well as lying about legality of various projects.

This organization's head admitted to committing perjury under oath when testifying before Congress. They've committed billions of violations of US laws, as well as our Constitution. They will likely cost the US economy tens to hundreds of billions in economic loses. They've become arguably the greatest threat that the United States has ever faced.

And you're arguing that he committed treason for exposing this, because a number of his leaks exposed various legal and illegal foreign conduct?


So. Tallpine, I am to understand you believe we deliberatly launched Hellfire missiles on Muslim Wedding parties?

Uhm. Yes?

In fairness, some were misidentified targets. It happens. Others were intentional strikes, because that's when clans get together. At social functions that outweigh everyday security concerns. Also, we have intentionally killed Americans because we believed they were probably terrorists, and in other cases because they were in the same building as suspected terrorists. Holder flatly admitted a US citizen minor was killed intentionally by the US government "for being in the wrong place." As we do not have corruption of blood (this is specifically a no-no under the Constitution), everyone involved should have been dragged up on murder charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-killed-my-grandson.html?_r=0

The government's stance is that if you're killed, your family has no standing to sue.
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Balog

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #98 on: January 31, 2014, 03:47:23 PM »
Why do you love Al Qaeda Rev? This ain't no college thesis, get those facts the hell out of here.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Snowden is nominated for Nobel Peace Prize
« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2014, 03:51:59 PM »
With respect, the foreign intelligence stuff matters not even a thimbleful of water compared to all the oceans in the world.

The crimes he has exposed have shaken the United States. The damage the NSA did by bribing RSA to weaken its cryptographic programs can't even be calculated. Ditto the wiretapping of Google's data centers. The Verizon leak may or may not have been significant, but Boundless Informant leak taught us that the NSA is systematically targeting US citizens. It acknowledged 3+ billion segments of intelligence information on US citizens. Upstream, which is illegal wiretaps on US fiber optic backbones. XKeyscore, yet another program that spies on American internet usage. The leaks that showed the NSA violated even their own rules, which are highly illegal and unconstitutional, 2,776 times between March 2011 and March 2012. The leaks showed hundred million dollar bribes to telcos. The leaks show that the NSA routine provides intelligence on US citizen to foreign countries. Leaks that they illegally monitor the SWIFT network. Minaret leak, that the NSA and other intelligence companies illegally monitored Sen. Frank Church when he was running the Church Commission that was looking into illegal conduct committed by the intelligence committee. SYANPSE leak, illegally mapping US citizens' social media contacts and email contact lists. Leaks about NSA talking points lying about terrorism justifying the agency's surveillance programs as well as lying about legality of various projects.

This organization's head admitted to committing perjury under oath when testifying before Congress. They've committed billions of violations of US laws, as well as our Constitution. They will likely cost the US economy tens to hundreds of billions in economic loses. They've become arguably the greatest threat that the United States has ever faced.

And you're arguing that he committed treason for exposing this, because a number of his leaks exposed various legal and illegal foreign conduct?


Uhm. Yes?

In fairness, some were misidentified targets. It happens. Others were intentional strikes, because that's when clans get together. At social functions that outweigh everyday security concerns. Also, we have intentionally killed Americans because we believed they were probably terrorists, and in other cases because they were in the same building as suspected terrorists. Holder flatly admitted a US citizen minor was killed intentionally by the US government "for being in the wrong place." As we do not have corruption of blood (this is specifically a no-no under the Constitution), everyone involved should have been dragged up on murder charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-killed-my-grandson.html?_r=0

The government's stance is that if you're killed, your family has no standing to sue.

Wow...just wow! I mean that in a good way. Excellent job of boiling it down.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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