Amanda knox convicted

[RoadKingLarry]

Since Amanda lives here in Seattle, suffice it to say that her story has gotten media coverage here up the wazoo for years.  The State Department has a pretty defined process for considering requests for extradition.  We have had a mutual extradition treaty with Italy for decades. If the Italians want her back, and we ever want to ask Italy to send a criminal convicted in American courts back, that is something that State takes into consideration: not just that case, but potential future cases.  The only real exception is that Italy, along with many other First World nations, will not extradite someone who faces the death penalty back in the country that wants them.

As for all the media attention, I think this is another case of cute middle class white girl rallies the troops to fight for her rights in a foreign land.  Italy has had a well-functioning court system for centuries before the USA did, and there are many aspects of the American justice system as practiced throughout the country that I would have a hard time defending to foreigners.

I based my comment on AJ's comment-

Zero extradition. U.S. won't on any grounds or trials that are unconstitutional. This one being simple double-jeopardy.

I feel bad for Kercher's family, but frankly, the kangaroo court third world freakshow that is "Italian Justice", the alternately three stooges then abusive police, and incompetent amateur-hour mistakes in basic scientific procedure and chain of custody in evidence by the forensics people is the much larger issue now. Italy's criminal justice system is an embarrassment to Italy, Europe, and Western Civ in general.

Even if she did do it, Italy essentially went to court with what amounts to a frame job to convict her.

I wouldn't turn *expletive deleted* Charles Manson over to them.

But if you see the flustercluck of a kangaroo circus court that is "Italian Justice" as a "well functioning court system" well, we must use a different standard for what "well functioning" means. and NO I do not have any extra or even any particular respect for their system just because it's centuries older than ours, Sharia law is older than our system as well and I don't particularly see that as a superior system.
While our system is pretty FUBAR as it is it is still, IMHO, orders of magnitude better and more fair than the Italian system.

[Balog]

As for all the media attention, I think this is another case of cute middle class white girl rallies the troops to fight for her rights in a foreign land.  Italy has had a well-functioning court system for centuries before the USA did, and there are many aspects of the American justice system as practiced throughout the country that I would have a hard time defending to foreigners.

I agree with that (except for the part about Italy having a well functioning system) but I'm curious what specific parts you find troubling?

[Firethorn]

If she has half a brain she'll be on her way to a non extradition country.  Write a book and live fat dumb and happy.

Thing is, she IS effectively in a non-extradition country.  There's not a lot of them anymore, not when it comes to foreigners anymore at least, and many/most of the remaining ones I wouldn't want to be in as a woman.

In most cases your home country is your best bet if you're not actually wanted there.

[Viking]

I'm not qualified to comment regarding Italy's justice system, but I think it's universal that media of any given country will defend the citizens of their own country regardless of the circumstances. Allow me to present an example: Annika Östberg. Born in Sweden, moved to the US at a young age with her mother, got involved with drugs, admitted to stabbing a man to death (according to her it was to protect her then boyfriend who had several previous convictions). About 8 years later, she was involved in two murders. First victim was ex-restaurant owner Joe Torre. Östberg pretended to bring stolen meat out of her truck to allow her boyfriend to sneak up on the guy to shoot him. Later on, she was involved in the murder of a police officer, probably in the same way, ie distracting him so her boyfriend could kill him. However, according to Swedish media, she was an innocent little angel who was afwaid of her big bad boyfriend, and the only reason for her life sentence was because he hung himself (or was hanged perhaps) in prison, and the courts wanted to send someone to prison for the murders.

[TommyGunn]

Proving she's a criminal [/Tommygunn]

Chris

Well the Italians surely think she is. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Proving she's a criminal [/Tommygunn]

Chris

She already did that.  How familiar are you with the case? Non mcnews facts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[Balog]

She already did that.  How familiar are you with the case? Non mcnews facts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Pssst, I don't think he's talking about this case.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Ex boyfriend got stopped taking a leave of absence

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[MillCreek]

I based my comment on AJ's comment-

But if you see the flustercluck of a kangaroo circus court that is "Italian Justice" as a "well functioning court system" well, we must use a different standard for what "well functioning" means. and NO I do not have any extra or even any particular respect for their system just because it's centuries older than ours, Sharia law is older than our system as well and I don't particularly see that as a superior system.
While our system is pretty FUBAR as it is it is still, IMHO, orders of magnitude better and more fair than the Italian system.

Do you think that similar issues over forensics and police investigations do not occur in American courts?  They are hardly unique to either the Italian or American jurisprudence systems.

[TommyGunn]

Do you think that similar issues over forensics and police investigations do not occur in American courts?  They are hardly unique to either the Italian or American jurisprudence systems.

Yea, but in our system the govt. gets only one bite at the apple.  It can't keep re-trying defendants until they get a verdict they like in the manner of a throw of dice.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Yea, but in our system the govt. gets only one bite at the apple.  It can't keep re-trying defendants until they get a verdict they like in the manner of a throw of dice.

What do you imagine happened there that wouldn't here? Tried convicted , overturned on appeal, appela overturned by higher court. I realize that pretty white girl syndrome is strong but lets get real.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[MillCreek]

Yea, but in our system the govt. gets only one bite at the apple.  It can't keep re-trying defendants until they get a verdict they like in the manner of a throw of dice.

And this raises a key point: other countries have their own legal systems.  These actions are perfectly appropriate under Italian law.  This latest decision is able to be appealed and will be.  Why should Italy be criticized for not having double jeopardy provisions?  Why apply American legal standards to a person being tried in an Italian court?  Why the concern over this case?  Is it because it is a young photogenic middle class white girl from Seattle?  I don't see a lot of people complaining over the injustice (if any) to Rudy Guede who was convicted of the murder and is serving 16 years, or Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's boyfriend who is also going through the same appeals process.  Huh.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And this raises a key point: other countries have their own legal systems.  These actions are perfectly appropriate under Italian law.  This latest decision is able to be appealed and will be.  Why should Italy be criticized for not having double jeopardy provisions?  Why apply American legal standards to a person being tried in an Italian court?  Why the concern over this case?  Is it because it is a young photogenic middle class white girl from Seattle?  I don't see a lot of people complaining over the injustice (if any) to Rudy Guede who was convicted of the murder and is serving 16 years, or Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's boyfriend who is also going through the same appeals process.  Huh.

lets not forget the bar owner that pwg originally told the cops was the killer.
its a good thing he had a good alibi
its a funny thing when folks name an innocent its usually to cover their own crime

[MillCreek]

And Ms. Knox was convicted of defaming Mr. Lumumba, the bar owner, and sentenced to serve three years and pay him 32,000 Euros for falsely accusing him of the murder.  I wonder if she ever paid that award.

Now mind you, I have no real opinion as to if she did it or not.  Based solely on what I have read in the media and the legal journals, it appears as if the investigation was sub-par in many respects.  But I do think that the Italian court system is in the best position to make these determinations applying Italian law, and I do not think this was a show trial on the level of some of the Soviet trials.

[AZRedhawk44]

What do you imagine happened there that wouldn't here? Tried convicted , overturned on appeal, appela overturned by higher court. I realize that pretty white girl syndrome is strong but lets get real.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

I have a major issue with this:  Government being able to appeal a decision it doesn't like to a higher court.

Once there's a "win" for the defendant, government loses.  Otherwise it's double jeopardy IMO.

We wouldn't have Miller as a precedent, if so.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I have a major issue with this:  Government being able to appeal a decision it doesn't like to a higher court.

Once there's a "win" for the defendant, government loses.  Otherwise it's double jeopardy IMO.

We wouldn't have Miller as a precedent, if so.

i'd agree if they lost first trial but they didn't  the appeals process was started by the killer. and ironically she got more time this trial.  seen that here to.  guys had a funny look on their face

[Strings]

>Great.  Now the local news will be all Amanda Knox all the time for 2 weeks.<

Better than hearing more about that Bieber thing

[bedlamite]

>Great.  Now the local news will be all Amanda Knox all the time for 2 weeks.<

Better than hearing more about that Bieber thing

Give them Bieber and tell them it's Amanda Knox.

[Lee]

ROTFL

[Hawkmoon]

What do you imagine happened there that wouldn't here? Tried convicted , overturned on appeal, appela overturned by higher court. I realize that pretty white girl syndrome is strong but lets get real.

In the U.S. system, a verdict of not guilty by a jury in a criminal case cannot be appealed or overturned.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

In the U.S. system, a verdict of not guilty by a jury in a criminal case cannot be appealed or overturned.

she wasn't found not guilty by a jury in italy.  so whats your point?

bearing in mind that one does not carry a bubble of american law surrounding them whem they choose to go overseas

[Ben]

Give them Bieber and tell them it's Amanda Knox.

Winning.

[TommyGunn]

And this raises a key point: other countries have their own legal systems.  These actions are perfectly appropriate under Italian law.  This latest decision is able to be appealed and will be.  Why should Italy be criticized for not having double jeopardy provisions?  Why apply American legal standards to a person being tried in an Italian court?  Why the concern over this case?  Is it because it is a young photogenic middle class white girl from Seattle?  I don't see a lot of people complaining over the injustice (if any) to Rudy Guede who was convicted of the murder and is serving 16 years, or Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's boyfriend who is also going through the same appeals process.  Huh.

I have always liked the provision against double jeopardy, it keeps the buzzards honest.  They get their one bite.  They don't get to make some poor shlub into a whipping boy when their egos get bruised by a "not guilty" verdict and thus keep after the defendant like a Lt. Gerard after a Dr. Kimble.
As for the Italians, meh, it would be nice if they would get wise and adopt a double jeopardy law but I really don't care if they do.  Despite whatever verdicts have been delivered over there, I really don't have any strong feelings about Amanda Knox and whether or not she's guilty.  That also applies to the codefendants. 
Like it or not, I just don't invest a lot of concern over what happens in other nations, we have enough problems here.  I was just injecting an offhand comment about the matter of double jeopardy into the thread, is all.

[sumpnz]

I can assure you that after this fiasco, the earthquake manslaughter (or was it murder?) trils, the Senna related trials, the American pilots that clipped the gondola cable, and probably others I'm not remembering, I have little intention of ever visiting Italy.  I don't need to have my life turned upside down for a decade or longer fighting them over a murder charge due to an accident, or false accusation.

FWIW, I don't know if Knox is innocent or guilty in her roommates death  but a lot of the case never made any sense.

[Firethorn]

And this raises a key point: other countries have their own legal systems.  These actions are perfectly appropriate under Italian law.  This latest decision is able to be appealed and will be.  Why should Italy be criticized for not having double jeopardy provisions?  Why apply American legal standards to a person being tried in an Italian court?  Why the concern over this case?  Is it because it is a young photogenic middle class white girl from Seattle?  I don't see a lot of people complaining over the injustice (if any) to Rudy Guede who was convicted of the murder and is serving 16 years, or Raffaele Sollecito, Knox's boyfriend who is also going through the same appeals process.  Huh.

1.  Italy isn't being criticized for lack of double jeopardy provisions; they're being criticized for a rather lousy trial process and inability to let a poor case go
2.  American legal standards aren't being applied to the Italian court; since she's now in the USA in order to get Amanda back Italy would have to apply for extradition, for which American legal standards very much apply.  One of these is that, applicable in Italian courts or not, US Citizens on US soil are protected by double jeopardy standards when it comes to extradition.
3.  Common opinion is that Rudy really DID do it.
4.  Sad to say, Raffaele is Italian and thus not as interesting a legal problem as Amanda, nor is protecting him as much of protecting one of our own.  I have seen sympathy expressed for him here.

Like many provisions in the Constitution, the double jeopardy clause was put in there because Kings were fond of holding as many trials as it took to get a guilty verdict.