Author Topic: Fried Eagle Anyone?  (Read 6397 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,049
  • I'm an Extremist!
Fried Eagle Anyone?
« on: February 15, 2014, 11:06:38 PM »
Apparently this recently opened solar facility fries birds that fly near its generating towers.

A couple of fun facts that I wasn't aware of:

1) 1000 deg F of heat is apparently bled into the atmosphere? I would think you would want to try and capture some of that with double-walled towers or something. I wasn't even aware that much heat was generated. I guess this place uses some technology I'm not familiar with.

2) I knew that solar was inefficient for for large scale grid power generation, but five square miles for only 140,000 homes? Calculating just the roof space of a 1500 sq ft home (assuming single story), I get around 7.5 sq miles. so if every square foot of roof of each home was covered with solar panels (and that's probably more than an average home needs), it only takes up 150% of the space of this centralized solar plant that still has to then distribute the power all over the place. I wonder how many homes five square miles of nuclear reactors would power?

Before I get the complaints about me being a Luddite, I'm in favor of solar as a decentralized alternative energy source, e.g., individual homeowners, etc. using it. I just don't see it as a viable source of centrally distributed power, at least with present  technology.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/15/world-largest-solar-plant-burning-up-birds-in-nevada-desert/



"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 01:11:23 AM »
  I wonder how many homes five square miles of nuclear reactors would power?

My quick calculations (read: SWAG) come out to: All of North America.

Ok, maybe not quite that much (calling Birdman, calling Birdman to the white courtesy phone), but the power density, in terms of the construction footprint, for solar and wind is ridiculously low. They simply take up way too much space. I think I read somewhere that a solar array that could provide all of the power for the US would be the size of the state of Ohio. Given that habitat destruction is probably one of the biggest ecological problems today, you'd think greenies would be against widespread adaptation of these technologies, but nope.  :facepalm:
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 02:33:48 AM »
It's okay when wind plants and this thing kill birds, heck, they just relaxed the incidental take permit rules for when the wind farms kill something rare. Not many golden eagles in my neck of the woods and yet everyone was still hot to build wind up here until the global bust.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 06:41:31 AM »
Recently opened?  That place has been running for years.

However, they did recently open an additional plant right next door. 
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 09:02:59 AM »
I wonder how many homes five square miles of nuclear reactors would power?


Byron Nuclear Generating Station sits on a 1,782-acre (7.2 km²,  2.784sq mile) site. It produces 2300 MWe which is enough to power over 2 million homes. So just for nice round numbers let's give everyone in the US a home (I know it's not true, but if you figure business and industrial electric consumption, it's probaly close enough.)

300 million homes / 2 million MWe= 150 Nuke Plants.  That's how many Byrons we'd need.

150 * 2.784 =  417.6 sq miles.  And the need to be near water and lots of it.   Washington DC is 68 Sq miles.   New York is 302.64 square miles (783.8 km2) and Boston is 48 square miles (124 km2).  That would just enough space to power all of the US.

Also

1000 deg F of heat is apparently bled into the atmosphere

Does that contribute to Globular Woerming?
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,579
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 09:54:52 AM »
Quote
Byron Nuclear Generating Station



That's the plume from Byron visible in the background of this pic, BTW.

My neice's kid, at my Dad's, last October. 
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,049
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 10:02:17 AM »
It's okay when wind plants and this thing kill birds, heck, they just relaxed the incidental take permit rules for when the wind farms kill something rare. Not many golden eagles in my neck of the woods and yet everyone was still hot to build wind up here until the global bust.

Yeah, I thought it almost amusing that a CA judge ruled against the enviro group that was suing over the the site. CA judges are notorious for ruling in favor of the most ridiculous cases brought before them by environmental groups. Of course if this place dealt in oil production, is there any doubt they'd be paying like $100,000,000,000 per dead bird? I am definitely amused by the environmental community in-fighting though.  =D
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 10:14:20 AM »
Byron Nuclear Generating Station sits on a 1,782-acre (7.2 km²,  2.784sq mile) site. It produces 2300 MWe which is enough to power over 2 million homes. So just for nice round numbers let's give everyone in the US a home (I know it's not true, but if you figure business and industrial electric consumption, it's probaly close enough.)

300 million homes / 2 million MWe= 150 Nuke Plants.  That's how many Byrons we'd need.

150 * 2.784 =  417.6 sq miles.  And the need to be near water and lots of it.   Washington DC is 68 Sq miles.   New York is 302.64 square miles (783.8 km2) and Boston is 48 square miles (124 km2).  That would just enough space to power all of the US.

Also

Does that contribute to Globular Woerming?

But it comes from a green source, so it's okay.
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

Marnoot

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,965
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 12:41:27 PM »
Byron Nuclear Generating Station sits on a 1,782-acre (7.2 km²,  2.784sq mile) site.

How much of that acreage is taken up by actual plant, cooling towers, etc., and how much is unused open space? Looking at it on Google Earth, I'd put the actual used space at under 0.5 square miles (0.33 sq miles by my very rough estimations using the distance legend). And even that includes parking lots (could be made smaller with parking structures) and a fair bit of unused space.

As you mention though, water availability would be a pretty big limiting factor for any sort of nuclear mega-facility.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 01:21:18 PM »
How much of that acreage is taken up by actual plant, cooling towers, etc., and how much is unused open space? Looking at it on Google Earth, I'd put the actual used space at under 0.5 square miles (0.33 sq miles by my very rough estimations using the distance legend). And even that includes parking lots (could be made smaller with parking structures) and a fair bit of unused space.

As you mention though, water availability would be a pretty big limiting factor for any sort of nuclear mega-facility.

Ehh, my guess was just slightly better than a total SWAG, but yeah, I bet there could be some overlap on the "Non-plant" spaces.  Figure you could shoehorn at least 3 Byrons into the 5 sq mi area of that Nevada solar plant.  That's enough to power 6+million homes, as opposed the 200,000 the solar plant powers now.  

Byron is on the Rock River.
Lasalle is built on a 3,055-acre site with a 2,058-acre man-made cooling lake, which is also a popular fishery managed by the Illinois Department of Natural Resources.  
Braidwood is built on a 4,457-acre site, and its cooling lake was formed from an old strip mine.  (The area is very popular with anglers and waterfowl hunters.)
Dresden Station is located on a 953-acrea site in Grundy County, Illinois, at the head of the Illinois River.
 
Those four stations alone produce enough power for ~8 million homes.

Quad Cities power plant is built on 765-acre site along the Mississippi River and produces enough to power 1.5 million homes.
Clinton sits on a 14,300 acres site and adjacent 5,000 acre cooling reservoir; Clinton Lake, which is owned by the operator, but hosts the Clinton Lake State Recreation Area and is open to public for a large range of outdoor activities. Only around 150 acres are actually used by the plant's buildings and operation areas.  It produces enough for about 1 million homes.  

So using the largest acreage numbers, we have a total of 39.55 sq miles (and keep in mind more than half that is usable recreational land/water.) Which powers 10.5 million homes.  And that power is there 24/7/365, without fail; even with clouds, rain, or dark of night.  To get the same amount of non-reliable power from solar we'd need 262.5 sq miles of solar arrays.   And it would have to be sunny 24/7/365.

That Solar Plant just doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 01:34:18 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 02:39:32 PM »

Does that contribute to Globular Woerming?

No, that heat was going to the earth anyway.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 03:44:11 PM »
No, that heat was going to the earth anyway.

CO2/greenhouse effect is just keeping the heat that was already there  =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,890
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 08:32:32 PM »
(ever so slightly off-topic)

Unintended consequences of bending and bouncing light around my place.  Mile-high altitude, midsummer, 0% sky cover:

1.  Drying silverware (I handwash stuff) in a highly polished steel colender out on my balcony.  I noticed smoke coming from it through my kitchen window.  A small portion (3-4 in^2) of the colender was exposed to the sunlight and focused it on the plastic handle of a steak knife, melting it and generating the smoke.

2.  There are several documented instances of crystal balls left in sunlight starting fires.  Most often, this is because the ball was left on a windowsill and its focus fell on closed drapes.  In one case, the ball was left on a couch and started a fire in the couch. (For most glass, the focal point of a sphere is about 1/3 radius from the surface, M/L.)  I have no documentation of other glass knick-knacks causing the same problem, but it seems possible.

3.  I had a flashgun from a Brownie camera, where the 6 in diameter parabolic reflector would make a piece of paper burst into flame in a matter of less than 10 seconds or so.

4.  In light (no pun) of the above wisdom, I got a little concerned about the possibilities of 2-liter bottles filled with water focusing sunlight on flammable surfaces.  (I keep emergency water in these bottles out on the back balcony.)  Even though the focal point was a "focal line" instead of a point, I measured the temp at this line at around 120°F by thermocouple.  Not too dangerous, but I left the labels on the bottles after that to keep the light from going through.

5.  A long time ago I discovered that bending a 4X8 sheet of 1/4in Masonite along its long axis resulted in a near-perfect two-dimensional parabolic shape.  Applications are obvious.

Question:  What would you call that flat array of steerable mirrors to focus light like a parabola?  A "Fresnel" mirror?

Dinnertime now.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 09:02:28 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 09:03:16 AM »
Using Clinton station as an example, it only needs 150 acres for the actual buildings and plant.  Let's see 5 sq mi = 3200 sq acres.  3200/150=21.333333

So we could actually fit 21 Clinton generating stations into 5 sq miles (assuming it was somewhat linear and along a large body of water).

That's 21+million homes powered vs 200,000, that's a 10500% land utilization improvement.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 01:03:28 PM by scout26 »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 09:19:47 AM »
How much of that acreage is taken up by actual plant, cooling towers, etc., and how much is unused open space? Looking at it on Google Earth, I'd put the actual used space at under 0.5 square miles (0.33 sq miles by my very rough estimations using the distance legend). And even that includes parking lots (could be made smaller with parking structures) and a fair bit of unused space.

As you mention though, water availability would be a pretty big limiting factor for any sort of nuclear mega-facility.

Acreage is not a real concern.  Cooling, security, convenience and aesthetics are. If you really really needed the space, a modern commercial power nuclear power plant could be condensed to a couple acres (to include all support and personnel requirements). If you go hog wild and lower your power requirements, it'd fit in a room. Except for the Navy, there's no need and plenty of drawbacks. Birdman and I talked about it once. I think the guesstimate is maybe 225 square miles (15 mile by 15 mile), IF it has adequate cooling. In his opinion (I'm not a synthetic fuel expert), you'd need a hundred by hundred square to make all the power AND hydrocarbon fuel America would need, at a cost of around $10 trillion.

Theoretically, if you used a river or ocean, you could get your uranium from the water as well.    =D
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,764
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 09:33:15 AM »
I would think the FAA would eventually get irritated about a bunch of mirrors everywhere interfering with aircraft visibility. 

Also, for that desert solar station, I wonder how many desert animals have taken to living under the shade of all those mirrors. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2014, 11:42:08 AM »
1) 1000 deg F of heat is apparently bled into the atmosphere? I would think you would want to try and capture some of that with double-walled towers or something. I wasn't even aware that much heat was generated. I guess this place uses some technology I'm not familiar with.

Focusing sunlight can make a *lot* of heat.  IIRC, one of the home experiments with tiling small flat mirrors on a ~8ft satellite dish generated enough to get iron at the focal point red hot.

Quote
I knew that solar was inefficient for for large scale grid power generation, but five square miles for only 140,000 homes? Calculating just the roof space of a 1500 sq ft home (assuming single story), I get around 7.5 sq miles. so if every square foot of roof of each home was covered with solar panels (and that's probably more than an average home needs), it only takes up 150% of the space of this centralized solar plant that still has to then distribute the power all over the place.

Home solar requires proper planning.  Remember that only solar on the roughly south facing roof pitches will generate at anywhere near rated efficiency, and also remember that some freaks are overly fascinated by roofs so complex that it's near impossible to install effective solar arrays.  That said, a good design with a large, open south facing pitch can easily generate more than the home needs if it's using some basic efficiency improvements.  (Good A/C, CFL or LED lighting mainly to avoid the excess heat generated by incandescents, gas heat, gas tank type or electric tankless water heater, etc.)

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2014, 11:48:51 AM »
I've always wondered about putting substations and transmission lines at the several naval stations that host nuclear powered vessels, backfeed the grid, run the plants at capacity while in port. Would shorten the re-fueling cycle, but it's not like we'd run out of cooling water. More porky shipyard jobs doing re-fuels, sounds like a plan Bobby Scott et. al could vote for.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2014, 12:07:07 PM »
Back to the OP, I wonder if they taste like chicken?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,890
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2014, 12:17:05 PM »
I've always wondered about putting substations and transmission lines at the several naval stations that host nuclear powered vessels, backfeed the grid, run the plants at capacity while in port. Would shorten the re-fueling cycle, but it's not like we'd run out of cooling water. More porky shipyard jobs doing re-fuels, sounds like a plan Bobby Scott et. al could vote for.

Oh, there's an example of that.  Some aircraft carrier berthed itself by some city without power and cabled itself to the local power grid as an emergency supply.  Forget details for right now.

ETA: Found it.  Here it is, and this wasn't the last time this scheme was used:

http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5113

Supplied 25% of the city's power for a month.

MORE:
http://search.tacomapubliclibrary.org/images/dt6n.asp?krequest=subjects+contains+Aircraft%20carriers

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 12:30:42 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2014, 12:26:02 PM »
Oh, there's an example of that.  Some aircraft carrier berthed itself by some city without power and cabled itself to the local power grid as an emergency supply.  Forget details for right now.

ETA: Found it.  Here it is, and this wasn't the last time this scheme was used:

http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=5113

Supplied 25% of the city's power for a month.

Terry, 230RN

One of the reasons they send acft carriers to disaster zone's, along with their ability to desalinate 400,000 gallons (IIRC) of water per day.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2014, 12:37:28 PM »
You don't actually 'need' a large source of water for a nuclear plant.  It's just substantially cheaper on the cooling systems.  Build the cooling systems heavier and you don't need to heat/evaporate water in order to dispose of the heat.  This can work even in the desert, and as a bonus they'd be a couple percent more efficient.

I was debating this issue on a forum called 'spacebattles'.  Somebody posted a link to a French nuclear reactor under construction - $11B with cost over-runs(it's something of a prototype).

Some financial notes:
The nuclear reactor is rated for 4 times the power at 5 times the cost
The solar plant would have an estimated capacity factor of 31 percent.  Which means that you take the faceplate capacity times 365*24*31% in order to figure out the average amount of energy it'll produce in a year.  Nuclear plants average roughly 90% - so on a kwh per year comparison, you need 3 watts of solar to match 1 watt of nuclear.
The solar plant should produce 1GWh per year(wiki site).  The nuclear plant?  13GWh.  13 times the energy at 5 times the cost?  Pretty good deal.
Ivanpah doesn't even include any power storage so it can continue producing power for a significant period of time after the sun goes down, occluded, etc...

I'll note that this doesn't necessarily mean that Ivanpah won't be useful - power usage in the south does trend higher when the sun is out due to AC systems and such.  So if you look at it as a sort of peaker, it's not necessarily bad.  In any case now that it's built you might as well use it.

On the fancier, more advanced fronts:  Conventional nuclear plants are about 30% efficient at turning heat into electricity.  This means that a 1GWe nuclear plant is actually 3GWt.   Unless you turn it into a co-generation plant where you use the heat for something(which would involve building industry/facilities too close to plants for current concerns), you need to dispose of 2GWt, that's the expensive part, water wise.

The efficiency of turning thermal energy into electrical energy is limited by the Carnot Cycle.  Conventional water cooled designs simply can't get that hot due to the pressure necessary to keep the water liquid.  PWR/BWR runs at around 315C, which translates to 49% efficiency, but that's the theoretical max.  70% of it is more real world, 34% efficient.  Go to molten salt, Very high temperature reactor gives you temperatures from 700 to 1000C.

700C gives you a max of 69%, 48% real world
1000C would be 76% and 53%.  At this point lowering the temperature of your heat sink(assuming 27C here) would have more effect.

What's the big deal?  Going from 30 to 50% efficiency means that you no longer need a 3GWt plant to produce 1GWe.  You now only need a 2GWt plant to produce 1GWe.  1GWt to dispose of is half what you needed to get rid of before, the plant can be smaller, etc...

Another positive of getting away from water as a coolant is that you can switch to materials that don't need to be pressurized to stay in the desired state.  That means that you don't need an incredibly strong pressure vessel that's at risk of exploding when something goes wrong.  Hell, on the high end the reactor core is essentially pre-melted.  The higher design temperatures also means that the reactor vessel is a very good radiative body - passive cooling to prevent breach is easy.

Another crazy design I've heard of is building the reactor into a barge and operating it semi-submerged as normal.  Only works around coasts though.

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,192
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2014, 01:41:52 PM »
That's why tapping our SSNs would be so much fun. Something goes wrong, sink it at the pier. It's the Elizabeth River, not like anyone would notice a little extra glow.  =D
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,415
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2014, 01:48:19 PM »
4.  In light (no pun) of the above wisdom, I got a little concerned about the possibilities of 2-liter bottles filled with water focusing sunlight on flammable surfaces.  (I keep emergency water in these bottles out on the back balcony.)  Even though the focal point was a "focal line" instead of a point, I measured the temp at this line at around 120°F by thermocouple.  Not too dangerous, but I left the labels on the bottles after that to keep the light from going through.

I've seen that with small water bottles. More correctly, I've smelled it.  In an airplane I was flying. It was a bit disconcerting.

I would think the FAA would eventually get irritated about a bunch of mirrors everywhere interfering with aircraft visibility. 

I have flown over that solar power station referenced in the OP a few times.  It isn't a factor because the light is focused at the top of the tower.  At 30,000+ feet, the light is bright but not a nuisance.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2014, 02:36:17 PM »
On the fancier, more advanced fronts:  Conventional nuclear plants are about 30% efficient at turning heat into electricity.  This means that a 1GWe nuclear plant is actually 3GWt.   Unless you turn it into a co-generation plant where you use the heat for something(which would involve building industry/facilities too close to plants for current concerns), you need to dispose of 2GWt, that's the expensive part, water wise.

The efficiency of turning thermal energy into electrical energy is limited by the Carnot Cycle.  Conventional water cooled designs simply can't get that hot due to the pressure necessary to keep the water liquid.  PWR/BWR runs at around 315C, which translates to 49% efficiency, but that's the theoretical max.  70% of it is more real world, 34% efficient.  Go to molten salt, Very high temperature reactor gives you temperatures from 700 to 1000C.

700C gives you a max of 69%, 48% real world
1000C would be 76% and 53%.  At this point lowering the temperature of your heat sink(assuming 27C here) would have more effect.

What's the big deal?  Going from 30 to 50% efficiency means that you no longer need a 3GWt plant to produce 1GWe.  You now only need a 2GWt plant to produce 1GWe.  1GWt to dispose of is half what you needed to get rid of before, the plant can be smaller, etc...

Yea, except the salt turns solid, life is going to suck. Birdman downplayed my concerns on corrosion and I believe him, but I'm still very "eh..." on that subject. I believe it will be a concern. I'm not sure of embrittlement issues, I'd have to ask a materials science person on that one.

Also, doesn't it require a fairly uninvolved chemical plant?


Water sucks for thermal transport. Yet everyone keeps going back to it. PCs, data centers, nuclear reactors, etc.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.