Author Topic: Fried Eagle Anyone?  (Read 6395 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2014, 03:11:47 PM »
Water sucks for thermal transport. Yet everyone keeps going back to it. PCs, data centers, nuclear reactors, etc.

Well, I'm sure if we had oceans full of mercury, we'd use it more often.

Tallpine

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2014, 03:49:33 PM »
Well, I'm sure if we had oceans full of mercury, we'd use it more often.

And Mercury has no oceans  =(
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Re: Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2014, 03:49:53 PM »
Well, I'm sure if we had oceans full of mercury, we'd use it more often.

Excellent point


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MechAg94

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2014, 04:33:33 PM »
Water actually isn't so bad for heat transport as long as a phase change is involved.  If you are boiling off steam and then using that to generate more power, it is pretty good.  I am sure other chemicals would work if they were cheap enough and easy to handle and non-toxic. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2014, 05:34:15 PM »
Water actually isn't so bad for heat transport as long as a phase change is involved.

Therein lies the problem with about 90% of the things that are water cooled; they just use it as a liquid for transport, without taking advantage of the huge absorption/dump that happens at evaporation/condensation.


Gewehr98

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2014, 10:21:46 PM »
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Water sucks for thermal transport. Yet everyone keeps going back to it. PCs, data centers, nuclear reactors, etc.

Actually, it has a very high specific heat, 2nd best after ammonia, the latter presenting its own nasty problems.  

Then there are the other "friendly" alternatives like liquid metals, freon, etc.

Of course, having a planet with 71% of its surface covered with water helps a smidgen, too...

I'd like to find a pump and cooling system for my workstation that can handle mercury.  Probably flex the CPU sockets right off the motherboard!   :O

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Firethorn

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2014, 12:40:15 AM »
Yea, except the salt turns solid, life is going to suck.

Why?  That's how it starts out; the plant would have heating systems specifically for that. 

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Birdman downplayed my concerns on corrosion and I believe him, but I'm still very "eh..." on that subject. I believe it will be a concern. I'm not sure of embrittlement issues, I'd have to ask a materials science person on that one.

That's why there's still R&D efforts on it.

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Also, doesn't it require a fairly uninvolved chemical plant?

For reprocessing?  Fairly involved, but not insurmountable.

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Water sucks for thermal transport. Yet everyone keeps going back to it. PCs, data centers, nuclear reactors, etc.

It's actually quite good at it.  It has a high specific density, isn't especially corrosive or flammable, is easy to pump, the issues with it are known, etc....  It's when you start getting out of it's ideal temperature range that issues crop up.

RevDisk

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2014, 10:28:20 AM »

I apologize if I poorly phrased. I didn't mean to sound like water was a poor choice for thermal transport. Quite the opposite. Every time I near some new fancy thermal transport system, like molten salt or whatnot, I always just shrug and assume they'll go back to water. I've heard the pitches before. Nonconductive liquids for PCs and data centers, molten salt reactors, etc.

Is it possible to do? Absolutely. Will it become common? Meh, I have my doubts.
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birdman

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2014, 06:33:35 PM »
I was bored, so I am striking from orbit.

Nonconductive liquids for PCs and data centers, molten salt reactors, etc.

Water (pure) is non-conductive, that is why its used as an insulator and dielectric in ultra-high voltage machines.

Actually, it has a very high specific heat, 2nd best after ammonia, the latter presenting its own nasty problems.  
Depends what you mean, and how its measured, and at what temperature, at room temperature, liquid water is 3rd best, after gaseous Hydrogen(3+x better) , Helium (20% better).  Gaseous ammonia is 1/2 that of water, and about the same as methane.
Liquid helium obliterates EVERYTHING in terms of specific heat.  Liquid hydrogen is pretty good as well, on a per mass basis.

Water actually isn't so bad for heat transport as long as a phase change is involved.
Given its relatively wide liquid range, that at the lower end covers normal heat rejection temperatures, its actually a near ideal fluid for heat transfer (also, low viscosity, relatively high density, and high thermal conductivity help), regardless of phase change.

Well, I'm sure if we had oceans full of mercury, we'd use it more often.
Actually NaK is far superior to mercury if going the liquid metal route.  Mercury's low specific heat makes for HUGE up power requirements.  Also, its high vapor pressure causes issues in design, which is why if going the liquid metal route, others are typically chosen.

1) 1000 deg F of heat is apparently bled into the atmosphere? I would think you would want to try and capture some of that with double-walled towers or something. I wasn't even aware that much heat was generated. I guess this place uses some technology I'm not familiar with.

You can't really do anything about it, its a matter of absorptivity (of solar spectrum light) vs emissivity (of blackbody radiation at the temperature of the absorber.
In fact, this ratio defines the -maximum- efficiency of a solar-thermal solution.
Sunlight corresponds to a blackbody in the 5300K range, so ideally you want something that has absorptivity of 100% at those dominant wavelengths (I.e., black), BUT absorptivity EQUALS emissivity at a given wavelength, so you then want something that has low absorptivity at longer wavelengths (e.g. 1.5-3+ microns for a 1000C collector), but, without resorting to photonic crystals (way too expensive for this large scale application), you are pretty much stuck with graphitic, ceramic, or refractory metals (coated with  absorbing ceramics), as such, you pretty much get a flat emissivity curve.  Thus, at most, ~85-90% of the incoming sunlight (regardless of concentration) gets turned into heat in the absorber, and the higher the temperature, the MORE you lose there...so its competing efficiencies (absorption efficiency vs heat engine efficiency).
Note, photovoltaic cells suffer from similar effects.  A given semiconductor only will generate a photo-electron for wavelengths -shorter- than it is tuned for, and then only one per photon.  So for a continuous spectrum (sunlight) you need a stack of cells to make maximum use of the incoming light.
The shortest wavelengths are absorbed first, then progressively longer as you go "into" the stack, with cell voltage roughly inversely proportional to wavelength.

MechAg94

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2014, 10:34:11 AM »
Either way, the original post mentioned 5 square miles of solar plant to power 140,000 homes.  I was thinking that 140,000 homes might fit into 5 square miles or not a whole lot bigger footprint.  You certainly are not going to clear 5 square miles anywhere around the East Coast to build a solar plant unless you go off shore.  You couldn't do it on the Gulf Coast either.  What isn't covered in homes is designated as wild life habitat or something. 
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Ben

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2014, 10:36:22 AM »
What isn't covered in homes is designated as wild life habitat or something. 

Yeah, but don't you know that it's okay to destroy the environment if it's for the environment?
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MechAg94

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2014, 10:39:16 AM »
Yeah, but don't you know that it's okay to destroy the environment if it's for the environment?
Hence, the controlled grass fires they do occasionally. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2014, 06:00:09 PM »
As it happens, I spent a bit of Friday morning designing 10kW racks for regular 280W PV panels to be the base unit of a proposed 5MW farm.  Based on my minimum spacing (for shading and maintenance access) requirements, 5 square miles would hold a bit over 913MW of PV.  (ETA: at our regular price - not accounting for the huge economies of scale on a project that size - 913MW would be around $2.7 billion.  I'm betting we could do at least 800MW 100% turnkey for the $2.2 billion they paid for 400MW.)

PV also has the advantage of not needing to be all in one spot; part of the point of this rack is that you could simply throw a 10kW inverter on each one and operate them entirely independently.  The rack itself would be roughly 82 feet E-W and less than 12 feet N-S, so no need to bulldoze neighborhoods when you could put them over alleys, bus stops, whatever.  (20x40' is our regular 10.08kW rack size for single-rack ground mounts, so there are options for size and coverage too.)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 06:06:32 PM by KD5NRH »

birdman

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2014, 09:27:36 PM »
As it happens, I spent a bit of Friday morning designing 10kW racks for regular 280W PV panels to be the base unit of a proposed 5MW farm.  Based on my minimum spacing (for shading and maintenance access) requirements, 5 square miles would hold a bit over 913MW of PV.  (ETA: at our regular price - not accounting for the huge economies of scale on a project that size - 913MW would be around $2.7 billion.  I'm betting we could do at least 800MW 100% turnkey for the $2.2 billion they paid for 400MW.)

PV also has the advantage of not needing to be all in one spot; part of the point of this rack is that you could simply throw a 10kW inverter on each one and operate them entirely independently.  The rack itself would be roughly 82 feet E-W and less than 12 feet N-S, so no need to bulldoze neighborhoods when you could put them over alleys, bus stops, whatever.  (20x40' is our regular 10.08kW rack size for single-rack ground mounts, so there are options for size and coverage too.)

$3/peak watt sounds good, until you look at the average generation, then its more like $8-12/watt, not including O&M and WAY not including storage.
Now, accounting for average insolation, to power the US, we would only need...let's see...30-50,000 square miles, at a cost of $20-30 trillion, and for overnight storage, -just- 1000+ Hoover dams operating as pumped storage that drain-fill leak mead once per day.

Solar sucks for large power.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2014, 10:43:52 PM »
As it happens, I spent a bit of Friday morning designing 10kW racks for regular 280W PV panels to be the base unit of a proposed 5MW farm.  Based on my minimum spacing (for shading and maintenance access) requirements, 5 square miles would hold a bit over 913MW of PV.  (ETA: at our regular price - not accounting for the huge economies of scale on a project that size - 913MW would be around $2.7 billion.  I'm betting we could do at least 800MW 100% turnkey for the $2.2 billion they paid for 400MW.)

PV also has the advantage of not needing to be all in one spot; part of the point of this rack is that you could simply throw a 10kW inverter on each one and operate them entirely independently.  The rack itself would be roughly 82 feet E-W and less than 12 feet N-S, so no need to bulldoze neighborhoods when you could put them over alleys, bus stops, whatever.  (20x40' is our regular 10.08kW rack size for single-rack ground mounts, so there are options for size and coverage too.)

Got any suggestions for something in the 85-100 W range for charging a couple of big deep cycle marine batteries on a sailboat?
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Firethorn

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2014, 01:13:13 AM »
ETA: at our regular price - not accounting for the huge economies of scale on a project that size - 913MW would be around $2.7 billion.  I'm betting we could do at least 800MW 100% turnkey for the $2.2 billion they paid for 400MW.

Just analyzing here, did you figure in land acquisition costs, the need to build infrastructure to get the panels into the previously undeveloped area, and the power lines needed to ship the power out of the site?

Not saying the project isn't a boondoggle anyways, but they are expenses that need to be taken into account.

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over alleys, bus stops, whatever.  (20x40' is our regular 10.08kW rack size for single-rack ground mounts, so there are options for size and coverage too.)

One of my favorite ideas after spending some time in the UAE is the idea of covered parking lots - I loved the covered parking there, it saves so much stress on vehicles if you at least keep them out of direct sun.  As an ancillary to this it shouldn't take much to have the covering material be a solar panel as opposed to a metal roof. 

Wham, your car is kept cool during the day, parking lots aren't heat zones warming up the entire city(or at least as much), your vehicle is a lot less likely to be rained on, you save wear&tear on the paint, don't come back to a car that's hot enough to melt common plastics, etc...

KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2014, 03:50:16 AM »
Got any suggestions for something in the 85-100 W range for charging a couple of big deep cycle marine batteries on a sailboat?

Not really; 235W is as small as we go, since the cost per watt even in bulk is awful below that size.

KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2014, 04:05:36 AM »
Solar sucks for large power.

No, it sucks as a sole source.  What it does extremely well is balance out the daily variation in the production/demand ratio by producing at peak when demand is highest.

Of course, ignoring the changes in demand throughout the day also skews the numbers for storage/supplement capacity.  We see that a lot with off-grid estimates, where storage capacity assumes that people will want a CRT TV and A/C running full blast all night long.

KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2014, 04:14:59 AM »
Just analyzing here, did you figure in land acquisition costs, the need to build infrastructure to get the panels into the previously undeveloped area, and the power lines needed to ship the power out of the site?

All of that is well outside our specialty, so we leave anything beyond construction and delivering the power to a specified point on the property up to the buyer.  I do have a contact at a utility-scale power transmission contractor, but I just refer the customer to them and go back to my design and steel purchasing.

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One of my favorite ideas after spending some time in the UAE is the idea of covered parking lots - I loved the covered parking there, it saves so much stress on vehicles if you at least keep them out of direct sun.  As an ancillary to this it shouldn't take much to have the covering material be a solar panel as opposed to a metal roof.

Carports and RV covers are about half of our residential ground mount business, and commercial covered parking is quite a popular product as well.  When you figure the cost of a large carport, then factor in the power company incentives and Federal tax credit, (all of which apply to the support structure as well when it's built as part of the solar purchase) a lot of our customers are getting a deal that's too good to pass up compared to just building a regular carport.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2014, 08:45:11 AM »
Not really; 235W is as small as we go, since the cost per watt even in bulk is awful below that size.

Shoot me a link if you do any retail type stuff, I could go bigger.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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KD5NRH

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Re: Fried Eagle Anyone?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2014, 10:24:57 AM »
Shoot me a link if you do any retail type stuff, I could go bigger.

We don't have any of that stuff listed, since most of our retail is full kits of one sort or another.  We can definitely sell you one, but I'd expect that shipping on a bulky  (shipping dims usually 6'x3'x1') 50lb item would kill our price advantage over a vendor close enough for you to pick it up.