Gas/chemical Warfare and WW2

[telewinz]

Why didn't Hitler use their chemicals weapons against the Russians?  They developed nerve agents that rival anything developed today and they had the means to deploy the chemicals /gas thru '45.

[RevDisk]

Why didn't Hitler use their chemicals weapons against the Russians?  They developed nerve agents that rival anything developed today and they had the means to deploy the chemicals /gas thru '45.

Except for human testing, gas/chemical warfare wasn't common.  The Japanese used some on the Chinese.  Most of the generals had memories of WWI, and didn't want to touch the stuff.  Hitler was also hit by mustard gas during WWI.  Probably why he didn't care for it.


Every military during the war tested chemical agents on humans.  The US Army did so on grunts, and then "misplaced" the evidence when said grunts started developing health problems.  Even if the mission was required, the lack of treatment for the vets affected was hardly justified.

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/vets10e_20041110.htm

Much like nukes today, no one wanted to start using them because then everyone will start using them.

[Guest]

Chemical weapons were used in WWII, just not extensively. The italians dropped mustard gas during their campaign in Africa, and it is likely that there were isolated uses of various chemical weapons throught the war. The reason the Germans didnt make use of their arsenal of chemical weapons (which included Sarin nerve gas BTW) was simply the same reason the Russians never slung any nukes at us during the cold war. They knew that any use of these weapons would illicit a response in kind. America had a MASSIVE quantity of chemical weapons at her disposal and would have gladly put them into action had the Germans given us the slightest reason to do so. Due to the fact that the Germans were fighting a defensive war at this time, it would be them that suffered the most. They were "diggin in" while the allies were advancing, chemical weapons are best used against an opponent that is dug in.

Basically the Germans didnt have much to gain by using chemical weapons. During their offensive they favored a fast moving advance, and using chemical weapons would have done as much to hamper them as to help them. And when they were on the defensive the risk of the U.S. responding in kind was simply too great.

Edited to add: On an interesting side-note my grandfather was SOMEHOW exposed to mustard gas during his tour with the US Army in the European campaign. Never did figure out the story behind that but with so many desperate comanders with access to old stocks of WWI era chemicals it is easy to believe that someone somewhere let a few of them slip out. Its doubtfull that it was an organized or even authorized effort by the Germans. If they had the desire to use chemical weapons they could do a LOT better than mustard gas by that time. They had developed Nerve agents between the wars and during the early war had developed Sarin, which is STILL about as scary as chemical weapons gets.

[jefnvk]

Might it also have to do that the Germans had already killed millions and millons of Russians, there was no real reason to give them another reason to hate them when the Russkies were rolling into Berlin?

[telewinz]

Germany had the means and the reason(s) to use chemical warefare against the russians...their impending doom due to the russian offensives of '44 and '45.   A country's survival would have justified to use of just about any weapon...again, why didn't Germany use chemical weapons against the russians?  All agree that if Germany had developed an A-bomb they would not have failed to use it.

[Preacherman]

A big factor in the equation was Britain's experiments with bacteriological and chemical weapons.  One of the northern islands is still off-limits to all visitors even today, and will be for a century or more, due to its contamination with bacteriological weapons during testing.

In the early part of the war, up to 1942 or so, the Germans were winning quite handily with conventional armed forces, and didn't need the added threat of weapons of mass destruction.  As for later on, informed sources have stated that the British got word to the Germans, through various conduits (including diplomatic contact in Switzerland and Sweden) that if Germany ever used bacteriological or chemical weapons against the Allies, the British would retaliate by dropping bombs filled with these substances on German cities.  They also made sure that the Germans got hold of reports about the damage and contamination caused by their weapons testing.  Given the destruction wrought by Bomber Command over Germany from 1942 onward, I guess the Germans took the threat seriously...

As for Japan, they had a major chemical-weapons research program, and did some research into bacteriological warfare:  but the Pacific campaign was primarily naval, with land forces confined to island warfare.  Such terrain isn't very suitable for chemical or bacteriological weapons, as if an island is contaminated, everyone on it suffers - Japanese as much as Americans.  If ground combat had occurred in China, things might have been different.

[telewinz]

A country's survival would have justified to use of just about any weapon...again, why didn't Germany use chemical weapons against the russians?

Towards the end and while Hitler still had the power and the means, any threats from ANY country would have had little importance.  I think the main reason is that Hitler and others did not want to divorce himself completely from the West.  Till the bitter end most Germansl believed that Germany and the western allies would unite to fight the russians...that fantasy cost Germany the war?  How about chemical weapons against the russians instead of the Ardennes offensive in the West?

[RevDisk]

A country's survival would have justified to use of just about any weapon...again, why didn't Germany use chemical weapons against the russians?

Towards the end and while Hitler still had the power and the means, any threats from ANY country would have had little importance.  I think the main reason is that Hitler and others did not want to divorce himself completely from the West.  Till the bitter end most Germansl believed that Germany and the western allies would unite to fight the russians...that fantasy cost Germany the war?  How about chemical weapons against the russians instead of the Ardennes offensive in the West?

Uhm, a country's survival would more likely just be cut short by usage of such weapons.  Hitler was insane, but his Generals were not.  They knew the risks were far too great for a few meager benefits.  Hitler could give the orders, but it would have to be carried out by the military.  Flat out, they wouldn't do it.

Hitler did divorse himself from the West.  That's why we called for an unconditional surrender when it would have been much cheaper and easier to go for an conditionally surrender or truce.  I think most sane Germans knew the West wasn't going to suddenly trust the Germans after years of war.

Chemical weapons wouldn't have won the war anyways.  Nazi Germany would have eventually lost anyways.  They'd have likely killed many more people, but eventually they still would have lost.

[K Frame]

"On an interesting side-note my grandfather was SOMEHOW exposed to mustard gas during his tour with the US Army in the European campaign. Never did figure out the story behind that but with so many desperate comanders with access to old stocks of WWI era chemicals it is easy to believe that someone somewhere let a few of them slip out."

It's very possible that he was exposed to AMERICAN stocks of mustard gas.

During the war chemical weapons were routinely stockpiled in Europe to be available in case the Germans decided to resort to chemical warfare.

Was, by chance, your Grandfather in southern Italy in 1943 or 1944?

One of the ships loaded with mustard gas was attacked by German aircraft at Bari Harbor on Dec. 2, 1943.

The death toll was along the lines of 100 men who were exposed to mustard gas when the ship was bombed and sunk.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1190.htm

[telewinz]

Hitler had plenty (the vast majority) of generals to follow his orders and many agreed with his leadership.  The "unconditional surrender" was a spur of the moment comment made by Roosevelt at a press conference.  He didn't dicuss the statement with Churchill (or anyone else) who thought it was a poor political move.  That statement prolonged the war.  Hitler still retained a 90% approval rating with the German public as late as April 1945!  Its a matter of record that Hitler ordered the destruction of Germany to prevent the allies from gaining any benefit during their advance.  I hardly thing that in 1945 gas warfare would have been a deterent for Hitler.  However chemical warfare against the advancing russian troops (unprotected) could have stopped them in their tracks.

[Waitone]

By that time armies learned that chemical weapons are not that hot a weapon for conventional wars.  

To be truly effective, chemicals weapons need binary technology--terror movements and unrestrained media.

[telewinz]

By that time armies learned that chemical weapons are not that hot a weapon for conventional wars.  

To be truly effective, chemicals weapons need binary technology--terror movements and unrestrained media.

How did they learn this?  Japan's experiments were quite successful.

[Hypnogator]

Another theory -- I read in one history book that when quizzed about why Germany didn't use its known stocks of chemical agents, the general being interrogated answered, "Die Pferde." (the horses).  It seems that, especially at the beginning of the war, the Germans still had a lot of horse-drawn artillery.  They knew if they used chemical weapons, the allies would reply in kind, and they weren't able to find a gas mask that a horse would tolerate.

[K Frame]

The image of the German army as being completely mechanized is a complete and total myth.

The German army used over 1 million horses during WW II. Many of their supplies in the invasions of Poland, the low countries, and France were moved by horse.

One of the major reasons why the German army didn't continue into the Dunkirk beachhead and crush the BEF there is because the mechanized units had completely outstripped their supply train.

[telewinz]

On the Oder River, with thousands of Russian artillery pieces pointed at them, horses being unprotected against gas/chemical warfare would have been a very minor concern.  Besides, no retreat orders had already been given and were strictly enforced.  The german army was much better prepared for chemical warfare than the Russians, and I don't think humanitarian reasons were a factor either.

[uvakat]

Telewinz,
History has shown that Germany has not used chemical weapons during WWII on any foreign militaries. The others have come up with many reasons why they did not, but you keep on refuting them. Why don't you tell us why they did not use them? Also the Japaneses bioweapons and chemical weapons programs make some of the Germans programs look like saints.

[telewinz]

I don't know why not, I know the reasons given don't hold much water.  The germans had potent/effective nerve agents (before WW2 started!) and the means to deploy them.  In all my reading of WW2, I never heard of a reason that would apply to the desparate situation the Germans faced from the Russians in 44 and 45.  Few doubt that Hitler would have used the A Bomb had he developed one.  Gas/chemical warfare would be cheaper and the munitions (plenty) were already on inventory.  I though a WW2 scholar might tap in on this thread.

[K Frame]

Personally I buy into the theory that Hitler had very negative feelings about chemical weapons from having been exposed to them in combat during WW I.

I don't think Germany had anything even remotely resembling comprehensive stocks of nerve agents, either. Sarin and Tabun had been discovered before the war, but they remained extremely difficult to manufacture in quantity.

Also, I think it's a bit wrong to compare chemical weapons to atomic weapons at that time.

Remember, even the American scientists who developed the first functional atomic weapons didn't fully comprehend the effects until after they had been deployed.

[telewinz]

The chemical formula for Sarin gas was forwarded to the Chemical warfare division of the German army at a Berlin-Spandau office during June 1939. Pilot plants were built at Spandau, Münster Lager, on Lüneberg heath, and pilot manufacture of Sarin was carried out in Building 144 in Dyernfurth. The chemical formula for Sarin gas was forwarded to the Chemical warfare division of the German army at a Berlin-Spandau office during June 1939. Pilot plants were built at Spandau, Münster Lager, on Lüneberg heath, and pilot manufacture of Sarin was carried out in Building 144 in Dyernfurth. Sarin is known to vapourise 36 times more rapidly than Tabun, is 26 times more deadly than cyanide, and all it takes is 0.01 mg for every 1 kg of body mass for it to be fatal for a human.  Nerve agents were developed in pre-World War II Germany. Germany had stockpiles of nerve agent munitions during World War II (WWII), but did not use them for reasons that are still unclear. In the closing days of the war, the U.S. and its allies discovered these stockpiles, developed the agents, and manufactured nerve agent munitions. The U.S. chemical agent stockpile contains the nerve agents GB and VX.
In 1935, Fascist Italy invaded Ethiopia. Ignoring the Geneva Protocol, which it signed seven years earlier, Italy used chemical weapons with devastating effect. Most effective was mustard gas dropped in bombs or sprayed from airplanes. Also effective was the mustard agent in powdered form, which was spread on the ground.
The Japanese invasion of China featured both chemical and biological attacks. The Japanese reportedly attacked Chinese troops with mustard gas and another blistering agent called Lewisite (named for its U.S. inventor, Captain W. Lee Lewis, who called it "the stuff beside which mustard gas becomes a sissy's scent"). In attacking the Chinese, Japan also spread cholera, dysentery, typhoid, plague, and anthrax.
Germany used a cyanide-based gas to massacre Jewish civilians in concentration camps.

[Sean Smith]

Here is my take on it.  This is just a practical argument, not an attempt to guess Hitler's strategic thinking (which was wildly inconsistent, and by 1945 just plain nuts).

One factor is that German intelligence believed that the Allies had nerve agents, too.  Thus, they didn't believe that they had a qualitative advantage in chemical weapons, even though they did.  

Another factor is delivery systems:  the Sovets had vastly more artillery tubes and rocket launchers capable of delvering chemical agents than the Germans by 1945, and by 1945 the Luftwaffe was practically grounded due a combination of attrition and lack of fuel.

Given that the Germans knew that the Soviets had more means to deliver chemical weapons than they did, and thought they knew that the Allies also had nerve agents, they may have simply believed that it was not to their advantage to "go chemical."