CNN cuts the foreplay, goes straight to calling for communism

[Firethorn]

Do you not think that Great Society programs have vastly increased our prison population?

More city scaled implementations of it.  The deliberate/inadvertent destruction of families, the failure of education, etc...

That and the war on drugs, of course.  Eliminate that and there goes what, about half our prison population?

And when you speak of using government to increase demand for labor, and incentivize OJT, you do mean getting government out of the way (including an elimination of minimum wage), yes?

A big part of it, yes.  Right now we're actually below a lot of Europe in ease of creating a small business.  Elimination of minimum wage would do relatively little though, until we get a self-sustaining structure/culture in place the government will have to do what it can to get workers trained to the point that they're worth the money to employ.  Thus the 'more expensive in the short term' corrective actions bit.

Roughly speaking, we need to do some things to push back against the Chinese taking all of our manufacturing, some sort of tax system that encourages businesses to hire people, rather than penalize them, would be nice.

[Perd Hapley]

More city scaled implementations of it.  The deliberate/inadvertent destruction of families, the failure of education, etc...

That and the war on drugs, of course.  Eliminate that and there goes what, about half our prison population?

I think eliminating, or just severely cutting, welfare programs would do more to reduce drug abuse than any drug prohibition laws.

[MillCreek]

I think eliminating, or just severely cutting, welfare programs would do more to reduce drug abuse than any drug prohibition laws.

How so? Less discretionary income available with which to buy drugs?

[Perd Hapley]

How so? Less discretionary income available with which to buy drugs?

The deliberate/inadvertent destruction of families...

Welfare, at least the way we've been doing it, has devastated the target communities, largely by degrading the family structure. The latter is at the root of problems like poverty, drug abuse, crime, etc.

[MillCreek]

How so? Less discretionary income available with which to buy drugs?

This did make me start pondering the price elasticity of illegal drugs.  I wonder if there is any sort of data on price vs. demand vs. supply of illegal drugs.  If you are addicted, I would think drugs are relatively inelastic.  Social use, more elastic, I would think.

[brimic]

This did make me start pondering the price elasticity of illegal drugs.  I wonder if there is any sort of data on price vs. demand vs. supply of illegal drugs.  If you are addicted, I would think drugs are relatively inelastic.  Social use, more elastic, I would think.

Sounds like a question for the marketing department.

[fifth_column]

This did make me start pondering the price elasticity of illegal drugs.  I wonder if there is any sort of data on price vs. demand vs. supply of illegal drugs.  If you are addicted, I would think drugs are relatively inelastic.  Social use, more elastic, I would think.

The phrase "all the market will bear" comes to mind.

[Firethorn]

Welfare, at least the way we've been doing it, has devastated the target communities, largely by degrading the family structure. The latter is at the root of problems like poverty, drug abuse, crime, etc.

Bingo.  Problem is; how do we fix this?  I'd start with changing welfare so that it encourages whole families and discourages having kids while on it.

Giving a constant amount of money per adult does at least some of that.  The more members in a household the cheaper it is per member at a constant quality of life.

[KD5NRH]

Prison is roughly 3-4 times as expensive as welfare.

As Reagan pointed out so many years ago, so is Harvard...complete with room and board.

[Firethorn]

As Reagan pointed out so many years ago, so is Harvard...complete with room and board.

 

It's my understanding that Harvard degrees are actually extremely cheap due to all the continuing grants they've received over the years.

But in many cases it is indeed cheaper to send somebody to college than it is to prison.  If the former has a good chance of preventing the latter...

Not to mention increased income = more ability to pay taxes = less need to tax people making money.  Assuming we manage to limit government growth.

[RoadKingLarry]

The big problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of the other guys money.

[cordex]

But in many cases it is indeed cheaper to send somebody to college than it is to prison.  If the former has a good chance of preventing the latter...

Not to mention increased income = more ability to pay taxes = less need to tax people making money.  Assuming we manage to limit government growth.

Oh dude, then what if we sent everyone to Harvard on the taxpayer's dime?  Sure, it would be expensive, but then everyone would make six or seven figures and we would all be the 1%!

Or maybe not everyone has the capability or willingness to complete a college degree, and maybe it is in large part the exclusiveness of degrees that gives weight to their signaling, and maybe government subsidies increase the cost of degrees and ...

In other words, sure, if it really passed the utilitarian bar of being more efficient to send people to school in a bid to avoid prison then it might make sense to do so, but there are many more factors than Education = Good.

[MicroBalrog]

Three points are to be made.

1. The United States Constitution specifically doesn't allow for any of this. It's simply not the role of government to directly take makattak's money and give it to fistful even were this a good idea.

2. On the other hand, the roles of state governments are more fungible. I don't see this as anyhow worse an idea than any of the other uses of government money - and all government constitutes taking money from one man's pocket and giving it to another man, even the 'legitimate' purposes of government.

3. Makattak will know more, but AFAIK this has been tried already in some areas of the world, and Switzerland has just passed a referendum to implement just this thing. I recommend we watch the results.

[cordex]

1. The United States Constitution specifically doesn't allow for any of this. It's simply not the role of government to directly take makattak's money and give it to fistful even were this a good idea.

The federal government has been doing exactly that for decades.  The constitution has been a document of convenience for politicians since before any of us was born.

[MicroBalrog]

The federal government has been doing exactly that for decades.  The constitution has been a document of convenience for politicians since before any of us was born.

It's one of of those things that it is useful to remind oneself about every so often.

[KD5NRH]

and maybe government subsidies increase the cost of degrees and ...

Nope.  College professors and administrators are pretty high on the list of people who were perfectly willing to have doctors forced to work at a set price, if necessary to "fix" the healthcare industry.  Give them an object lesson.

[cordex]

Nope.  College professors and administrators are pretty high on the list of people who were perfectly willing to have doctors forced to work at a set price, if necessary to "fix" the healthcare industry.  Give them an object lesson.

Of course, I'm actually talking about currently observed effects of government subsidies.  Plus, it really isn't so much teaching faculty pay that drives the cost of education.

[Balog]

This thread is a perfect example of people who are too smart for their own good thinking that central planning can work, if they're the one's in charge of it.

[makattak]

3. Makattak will know more, but AFAIK this has been tried already in some areas of the world, and Switzerland has just passed a referendum to implement just this thing. I recommend we watch the results.

I haven't looked at it in a while, so I made some quick checks (thank you wikipedia) to be sure. Although many countries have welfare programs that call themselves "Basic Income" or the like, they are all means tested, which leaves in place the disincentive to work.

I believe Switzerland just passed an extremely high minimum wage, but I do not find any indication they passed a basic income.

So, as far as I can tell, many countries have tried versions of this, but all are means-tested. This just makes them another form of welfare.

[makattak]

This thread is a perfect example of people who are too smart for their own good thinking that central planning can work, if they're the one's in charge of it.

I don't think it will work (long run). I think this is a terrible idea. I think it's a BETTER idea than our current welfare system.

Better =/= good. Think of it as "less bad".

[MicroBalrog]

I haven't looked at it in a while, so I made some quick checks (thank you wikipedia) to be sure. Although many countries have welfare programs that call themselves "Basic Income" or the like, they are all means tested, which leaves in place the disincentive to work.

I believe Switzerland just passed an extremely high minimum wage, but I do not find any indication they passed a basic income.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-switzerlands-basic-income-initiative-works-2013-11

[makattak]

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-switzerlands-basic-income-initiative-works-2013-11

The title of your article is: Here's Why Switzerland Won't Have A Basic Income Anytime Soon

And second sentence: But while this proposal this interesting, you shouldn't expect to see it implemented in 2014, if ever.

So, it's been suggested. But as far as I can tell, isn't up for a vote.

[MicroBalrog]

My view of course is, I would support a basic income if the usual suspects then left us alone (other than maybe politicking about its extent, which would be inevitable).

[Balog]

I don't think it will work (long run). I think this is a terrible idea. I think it's a BETTER idea than our current welfare system.

Better =/= good. Think of it as "less bad".

We keep playing the rigged game of "less bad" and yet somehow things never get better.

[MicroBalrog]

We keep playing the rigged game of "less bad" and yet somehow things never get better.