CNN cuts the foreplay, goes straight to calling for communism

[Balog]

Which we achieved by not "compromising" but continually pushing forward. Post up a nice progressive map of the national debt and spending on welfare, see how that looks.

[KD5NRH]

Of course, I'm actually talking about currently observed effects of government subsidies.  Plus, it really isn't so much teaching faculty pay that drives the cost of education.

Then cap the price of textbooks at $5 over actual printing cost, or $9.99 digital download, ban "building use" fees, etc. and see how many of them are still begging for more government.

[Firethorn]

Oh dude, then what if we sent everyone to Harvard on the taxpayer's dime?  Sure, it would be expensive, but then everyone would make six or seven figures and we would all be the 1%

I expanded from 'just' harvard in my post for multiple reasons.  More realistically you would also want to support more practical education-tech schools and community colleges.  They don't need to be rich, but even lower middle class with options and security cuts crime by a lot.

there are many more factors than Education = Good.

Agreed.  Just using it as an example of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

The big problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of the other guys money.

Which is why I try to examine each problem in the context of whether it will save/make money in the long run.  If it doesn't have a positive return even considering non-primary effects, we shouldn't be doing it.

[birdman]

I expanded from 'just' harvard in my post for multiple reasons.  More realistically you would also want to support more practical education-tech schools and community colleges.  They don't need to be rich, but even lower middle class with options and security cuts crime by a lot.

Agreed.  Just using it as an example of an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.
Which is why I try to examine each problem in the context of whether it will save/make money in the long run.  If it doesn't have a positive return even considering non-primary effects, we shouldn't be doing it.

Assuming paid for education yields the same societal effects as seen when a population voluntarily goes and pays for the schooling itself is the same correlation/causation fallacy that says increased home ownership yields better neighborhoods, when its not owning the home, its having equity in the home. (As 2004-now has taught us).

Subsidizing it just removes market forces from making it cost competitive,a mD basically gets us the massive cost increases we have seen w.r.t. Tuition.

If people have to pay for it themselves, they will likely choose degrees/trades that can pay for the cost of education.  If that market force is removed, as it is now, you have degrees in lesbian basket weaving.
We got here because student loans are the one area where the "investment" of capital is not allowed by law to looks at the return, I.e. The borrower's ability to pay.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone getting a loan to go to engineering school and getting good grades should pay a far lower interest rate (and qualify for more) than someone with crap grades, at a crap school, majoring in a bull-pucky major.

[KD5NRH]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, someone getting a loan to go to engineering school and getting good grades should pay a far lower interest rate (and qualify for more) than someone with crap grades, at a crap school, majoring in a bull-pucky major.

Exactly; tie the loan interest rate and eligibility to major and grades, and the Pell grant (and any other non-repaid assistance) to the performance of the school in that field.  Then the students and the schools have a strong incentive to perform well.

Personally, I'd also like to see the assistance set up so that a student can live reasonably comfortably, (i.e. splitting a decent apartment, having a beater and gas, etc. not extravagantly, but enough to not have to worry about working during school) if the student is willing to take 15+ hours and demonstrates in subsequent semesters the ability to pass 12+ regularly.  IME, a student of reasonable intelligence can deal with 12 hours of core curriculum in about 20-25 hours a week, including homework.  More specialized classes directed at the specific major will sometimes require more, but if the student can focus on school 40-60 hours a week without the boss wanting short-notice overtime on finals week, it will get the serious ones through faster, and the partiers flunked out and ineligible for more aid faster.

[birdman]

Exactly; tie the loan interest rate and eligibility to major and grades, and the Pell grant (and any other non-repaid assistance) to the performance of the school in that field.  Then the students and the schools have a strong incentive to perform well.

Personally, I'd also like to see the assistance set up so that a student can live reasonably comfortably, (i.e. splitting a decent apartment, having a beater and gas, etc. not extravagantly, but enough to not have to worry about working during school) if the student is willing to take 15+ hours and demonstrates in subsequent semesters the ability to pass 12+ regularly.  IME, a student of reasonable intelligence can deal with 12 hours of core curriculum in about 20-25 hours a week, including homework.  More specialized classes directed at the specific major will sometimes require more, but if the student can focus on school 40-60 hours a week without the boss wanting short-notice overtime on finals week, it will get the serious ones through faster, and the partiers flunked out and ineligible for more aid faster.

I read a saddening study recently that showed the average schoolwork and class hours for a college student has decreased substantially (like 30-60%) in a few decades.  So since the average student has the free time, perhaps they should do something about it.

[brimic]

I read a saddening study recently that showed the average schoolwork and class hours for a college student has decreased substantially (like 30-60%) in a few decades.  So since the average student has the free time, perhaps they should do something about it.

Heck, 20 years ago, I had enough free time in college to deliver pizzas and work in a factory to pay for my schooling. I know its not the 'fun' way, but more people without the means otherwise, should try it.

[White Horseradish]

Heck, 20 years ago, I had enough free time in college to deliver pizzas and work in a factory to pay for my schooling. I know its not the 'fun' way, but more people without the means otherwise, should try it.

Try it today. You will fail.  Between what the schooling costs now and what these kinds of jobs pay there is no such thing as working through school any more.

[Fitz]

Try it today. You will fail.  Between what the schooling costs now and what these kinds of jobs pay there is no such thing as working through school any more.

Sure there is, you just have to be creative.

I finished my B.S. and have nearly finished my M.S entirely while working

[Scout26]

Exactly; tie the loan interest rate and eligibility to major and grades, and the Pell grant (and any other non-repaid assistance) to the performance of the school in that field.  Then the students and the schools have a strong incentive to perform well.

Personally, I'd also like to see the assistance set up so that a student can live reasonably comfortably, (i.e. splitting a decent apartment, having a beater and gas, etc. not extravagantly, but enough to not have to worry about working during school) if the student is willing to take 15+ hours and demonstrates in subsequent semesters the ability to pass 12+ regularly.  IME, a student of reasonable intelligence can deal with 12 hours of core curriculum in about 20-25 hours a week, including homework.  More specialized classes directed at the specific major will sometimes require more, but if the student can focus on school 40-60 hours a week without the boss wanting short-notice overtime on finals week, it will get the serious ones through faster, and the partiers flunked out and ineligible for more aid faster.

Bull Hockey. 

I carried 22-25 credit hours and worked full-time, even after I got my ROTC scholarship.  I also graduated with a 3.1 GPA (out of 4).  And yes, I did have a social life, but I wasn't a partier.  Those folks didn't last in school.

[brimic]

Try it today. You will fail.  Between what the schooling costs now and what these kinds of jobs pay there is no such thing as working through school any more.

I am surrounded by lots of people who did it ir are doing it every day.  heck the company I work fir now even pays tuition,   that I didb't have available when I was in school.  right now there are only 40 employees but at least two are in MBA programs and another is getting an MS in chemistry- all on the company's dime. In the 8 years I've been with the conpany there have been at least a dozen people who eatned degrees from accounting to PhDs in physical sciences.

[MillCreek]

Although this was 30+ years ago, I worked my way through undergrad, grad and professional school working at the hospital and as a paramedic.  My daughter, who just finished her BFA last year, worked part-time through school to keep the loan costs down.

[White Horseradish]

I finished my B.S. and have nearly finished my M.S entirely while working

At a pizza shop?  I doubt it.

I am surrounded by lots of people who did it ir are doing it every day.  heck the company I work fir now even pays tuition, 

Well, the trick would be to get a job at your company first. Again, I doubt you bake or deliver pies. Can someone fresh out of high school walk in the door and get at job at your company?

Although this was 30+ years ago, I worked my way through undergrad, grad and professional school working at the hospital and as a paramedic.

30+ years ago school was cheaper. Also, paramedic isn't exactly a job a kid out of high school can get.

My daughter, who just finished her BFA last year, worked part-time through school to keep the loan costs down.

Still winds up in debt at the end. Less debt, but still debt.


Look, folks, I got my own Associate degree just a couple of years ago with the assistance of my employer. However, between the time I graduated high school and the time I got this job, it has been 15 years. "Working through school" meant having an entry level job and going to college right out of HS, and getting a well-paid job after. Now, you have to have a well paid job first. Entry level jobs pay too little and school costs too much for this to be a viable proposition. Even back in 1993,  I had to drop out of college after running up a bunch of credit card debt because I could not get any financial aid at all, not even loans, and there was no way to get a job that would pay any significant portion of tuition and my living expenses. And I did have to pay  my living expenses because my mom could not put me up. Even though I went to a cheap college ( I had to pass on a scholarship to a better one because it was only for half tuition - I could not come up with the other half).

I don't fully understand why school costs what it costs. Faculty often isn't paid all that much, and many colleges heavily rely on adjuncts who are hardly paid anything at all.

[makattak]

I don't fully understand why school costs what it costs. Faculty often isn't paid all that much, and many colleges heavily rely on adjuncts who are hardly paid anything at all.

Government "pays" for it + 30 years of "go to college or you'll be miserable your whole life" = extremely high demand + competition on student amenities and "prestigious" professors who do no actual teaching. This includes some MASSIVE administrative bloat. 30-40 years ago there would be one Dean and one VP. There are now a minimum of 3 each and associated staff.

[birdman]

Government "pays" for it + 30 years of "go to college or you'll be miserable your whole life" = extremely high demand + competition on student amenities and "prestigious" professors who do no actual teaching. This includes some MASSIVE administrative bloat. 30-40 years ago there would be one Dean and one VP. There are now a minimum of 3 each and associated staff.

This, in spades. 
Also, its the low demand profs/courses/extracurriculars that really spike costs.
One has to think about it this way, the highest-end colleges have tuitions in the what, 40-50k range now?  I would get their average employee (from janitor to dean) averages 80-120k, meaning if staff is >1:5 for students, half the tuition just goes to those paychecks.
Given that those universities typically have TEACHING staff to student ratios of 1:10-1:15, a 1:1 ratio of teachers to support is totally possible these days, and shows the answer.

The first part of what makattak wrote is the reason why there has been no downward pressure on these costs.

[White Horseradish]

Yeah, this deal where he college has no risk whatsoever and gets paid regardless of whether they actually taught anyone anything is probably it.

A lot of the classes I've been in were useless as all get out, but they are mandatory. In the course of my AAS, I probably had one class that actually taught me something I didn't know. The rest, I probably could have taught. College got paid. I'm on the hook for it.

[Boomhauer]

 

Try it today. You will fail.  Between what the schooling costs now and what these kinds of jobs pay there is no such thing as working through school any more.

I worked through school for my BS, I worked through school the semester of welding I took, and I'll be working through school this fall for whatever I go to school for. Not going to an extravagantly expensive school helps (i.e, for a run of the mill degree, pick the state school that is 6k per semester tuition vs. a 40-60k private school). Many degrees are so easy that you don't have to do much homework for them so that leaves your free time to work. Be a penny pincher by not partying, and buying your textbooks and such online and so on and it's doable.

When I go back to school this fall I hope it's going to be for the local Cat dealership. They are going to reimburse my tuition if I work for them for three years plus they are going to supply 90 percent of my tooling, plus uniforms and such. And when school isn't in session I'll be working at the dealership for them.

A lot of the classes I've been in were useless as all get out, but they are mandatory

God I hated that *expletive deleted*it. Spanish classes...not really much good for actually learning any Spanish that you can use. Art class...*expletive deleted*ck art, I don't give a *expletive deleted*it. We also had to do these stupid Fine Arts Appreciation credits where we had to attend 27 "Fine Art Events" on our own time. That crap increased costs and took away time I could have used towards more productive means.

eah, this deal where he college has no risk whatsoever and gets paid regardless of whether they actually taught anyone anything is probably it.

One of the favorite things for students to do these days is to sign up for a bunch of classes, wait till the financial aid money comes in and is disbursed in the form of a check, then drop out of the class. The college doesn't care because they get the class money, the students don't care because they get party money now, and they don't care that they will have huge student loan bills later.

[roo_ster]

Working at low/unskilled jobs to pay for schooling (to get you those skills/credentials) and end up debt-free at the end is no longer a viable option.  Post-HS education cost has increased at a multiple of the overall inflation rate while low/unskilled labor pay has stagnated or gone down in constant dollars. 

You have got to have some sort of hook, buying from an employers, some higher-paying job that does not require a university credential, or some such to make it work.

[birdman]

Working at low/unskilled jobs to pay for schooling (to get you those skills/credentials) and end up debt-free at the end is no longer a viable option.  Post-HS education cost has increased at a multiple of the overall inflation rate while low/unskilled labor pay has stagnated or gone down in constant dollars. 

You have got to have some sort of hook, buying from an employers, some higher-paying job that does not require a university credential, or some such to make it work.

True, but more funding is way not the answer, as that caused the massive rise to begin with

[Fitz]

I was bouncing at a bar while working on my BS... Not exactly a high paying gig

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Yup.  Just cause its hard does not make it impossible nor require the gov to fix or pay for it


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[roo_ster]

True, but more funding is way not the answer, as that caused the massive rise to begin with

I am not arguing for subsidy. 

My answer would be to abolish much of the subsidies to higher ed.  If we must have a student loan program, the money comes priced according to the risk of non-repayment.  Dumbasses pay a higher rate (Low SAT means higher interest rate).  Folks majoring in or getting training for non-remunerative courses of study pay higher rates.  And...schools get to co-sign the loan, just like if you finagled your uncle to co-sign a car loan.  If the student defaults, the school gets to cough up the cash.

I was bouncing at a bar while working on my BS... Not exactly a high paying gig

Yup.  Just cause its hard does not make it impossible nor require the gov to fix or pay for it

Mathematically, you are correct.  Read an article recently that did the math.  For the average state school, someone would have to work a minimum wage full-time job one half of the calendar year to pay for tuition.  Relative to decades past, that was an increase of (IIRC) an order of magnitude. 

Good luck trying to earn one of the more rigorous STEM majors that way.  I recall one (3 credit) course's lab component (1 credit) in my major requiring a good 30+ hours per week to complete.   Labs outside of the survey courses in some STEM majors can be ball-busters.  My experience was typical for that course at that school.  Besides that one credit lab I had 14 other credit hours to push through that semester.  Typical is supposed to be 3 hours outside study for every class hour for roughly 42 hours more study per week.  Unless they were STEM credit hours, which require more time.  Which mine were.  I had no paying job that semester.  I was very fortunate that I could live at my folks' home while going to school.  Luckily I was young and could manage on 4 hours of sleep.  If I got 6 hours I felt like Superman. 

[birdman]

I am not arguing for subsidy. 

My answer would be to abolish much of the subsidies to higher ed.  If we must have a student loan program, the money comes priced according to the risk of non-repayment.  Dumbasses pay a higher rate (Low SAT means higher interest rate).  Folks majoring in or getting training for non-remunerative courses of study pay higher rates.  And...schools get to co-sign the loan, just like if you finagled your uncle to co-sign a car loan.  If the student defaults, the school gets to cough up the cash.

Mathematically, you are correct.  Read an article recently that did the math.  For the average state school, someone would have to work a minimum wage full-time job one half of the calendar year to pay for tuition.  Relative to decades past, that was an increase of (IIRC) an order of magnitude. 

Good luck trying to earn one of the more rigorous STEM majors that way.  I recall one (3 credit) course's lab component (1 credit) in my major requiring a good 30+ hours per week to complete.   Labs outside of the survey courses in some STEM majors can be ball-busters.  My experience was typical for that course at that school.  Besides that one credit lab I had 14 other credit hours to push through that semester.  Typical is supposed to be 3 hours outside study for every class hour for roughly 42 hours more study per week.  Unless they were STEM credit hours, which require more time.  Which mine were.  I had no paying job that semester.  I was very fortunate that I could live at my folks' home while going to school.  Luckily I was young and could manage on 4 hours of sleep.  If I got 6 hours I felt like Superman. 

Minimum wage job for half the year?
Hmm.  College runs early/mid September through mid December, then late January though early/mid may.
So basically two 3-3.5 month semesters.
Leaving 5-6 months free.
In college I worked two part time jobs totaling 20hrs per week during the school year, and a full time job where I worked 60-70hrs a week in the summer.  So I worked 8.5-9 months of equivalent full time work during a year.
While taking an average of 7 full credit classes a semester.
During e year job paid minimum wage.  Summer job paid 1.5-2x minimum, plus time and a half overtime.

Its doable,  you just have to work.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Work? Heretic!   Next you'll curse with sacrifice


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[KD5NRH]

Hmm.  College runs early/mid September through mid December, then late January though early/mid may.
So basically two 3-3.5 month semesters.

Don't forget summer semesters to get some of the core curriculum out of the way faster or retake certain failed courses.  Also a lot have a winter mini-mester for the same reason.  Basically full-time class from right after Christmas until a day or two before the regular Spring semester starts.

In college I worked two part time jobs totaling 20hrs per week during the school year, and a full time job where I worked 60-70hrs a week in the summer.  So I worked 8.5-9 months of equivalent full time work during a year.

The other problem is finding employers that will respect your class schedule.  My first two attempts at working my way through college ended with sudden work schedule changes early in the semester, and "work it or get fired" orders.  Both times I quit the job and finished the semester on ramen noodles and the generosity of friends, then had to take other jobs that were completely incompatible with any available class schedule.