Author Topic: TEA Party losses  (Read 20166 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 01:38:01 AM »
People who don't support the freedom of gays to marry will also lose their gun rights in the long run. Seems fair to me.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 01:54:57 AM »
People who don't support the freedom of gays to marry will also lose their gun rights in the long run. Seems fair to me.

People so deluded as to believe "gay marriage" can exist in the real world will not be able to sustain an appreciation for human rights.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 01:59:45 AM »
People so deluded as to believe "gay marriage" can exist in the real world will not be able to sustain an appreciation for human rights.

And yet I sustain an appreciation for human rights.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 02:24:33 AM »
And yet I sustain an appreciation for human rights.


I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a whole group of people, over a long span of time. As I said earlier, it's the victory of feels over reals. If we wish for realistic policy, fake marriages are one thing that has to go. Legally speaking.

American homosexuals will probably always have the freedom to "marry." The question now is whether we are so insane as to play along, and give them legal recognition. And keep persecuting those who don't play along.  ;/
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Regolith

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 03:00:01 AM »

I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a whole group of people, over a long span of time. As I said earlier, it's the victory of feels over reals. If we wish for realistic policy, fake marriages are one thing that has to go. Legally speaking.

American homosexuals will probably always have the freedom to "marry." The question now is whether we are so insane as to play along, and give them legal recognition. And keep persecuting those who don't play along.  ;/


So what's fake about them, besides the fact they don't meet your own approval?
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MechAg94

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 07:14:44 AM »
I heard mark Kevin point out that nearly every Repub Presidential candidate since Reagan opposed Reagan and his supply side economics.  Nearly every one of those candidates lost.  The ones who won you could say they did not really win on their own merits but due to other reasons. 

There really aren't many small govt conservative candidates who are very well spoken.  It is rare to find a small govt conservative candidate who really believes it and doesn't back off as soon as someone challenges them. 

I am curious how many Democrats crossed over to vote for McConnel.
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AJ Dual

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 09:45:37 AM »
B.S. Left-wing fear-mongering has you so pwnd. President Santorum will not bust down anyone's door to catch them in the act of sodomy, much less use the IRS to persecute GLADD or GLAAD, or whatever it is. No Tea Party Theocrat Congress is going to force school children to pray to Jesus for the strength to kill Wiccans. The alternative to abortion on demand is not a return to fainting couches and corsets.

Actually I agree with this in broad strokes.

While I'm certainly in the social libertarian camp, the ability of the hard-right to actually DO ANYTHING about what they perceive as "immorality" is rather limited, if not completely absent in a society that otherwise has freedom of movement and association. They'd have to enforce said morality door-to-door which is a logistical near-impossibility.

By just one example, the polygamist families that really want to be polygamist seem to be able to get away with it, even living relatively openly in metropolitan areas where it's not one of those creepy polygamist towns out in the desert. They even have basic cable reality TV shows documenting their lives.

That's not to say some rogue DA can't dredge up the old (or new) state-level laws on sodomy and go issue a warrant to a willing PD to issue a no-knock on some gay couple's home, but then the answer already presents itself with the before mentioned polygamist communities. Live in an area with majority or critical mass of people who approve of your lifestyle and won't stand for such governmental interference.

Whole thing goes back to my posts about how the whole gay marriage debate is a failure, on both sides. With both of them fighting over control of the government like a prize, either way, everyone loses in the end because all it does is empower the government. A government that can either ban gay marriage, or establish it by fiat is not one I'm comfortable with having power over a whole host of other issues, no matter what the outcome is.

OTOH, the Left's supposed support for "social freedom" (not really, just their version of it, femnazi's and SJW's are as much, if not more of a threat to your unfettered access to hookers and Pr0n than the religious right is...) and economic control, they can and do achieve that, because their collectivist ideology which is obsessed with the "rights of groups" devolves quickly so that no one individual is ever safe, and they get control over the bottlenecks and choke-points of banking, industry, and infrastructure in ways that actually DO limit freedom in measurable material ways.

When there's no viable Libertarian alternatives, there are times when refusing to vote GOP over concerns they'd become the "morality police" is not very rational. (Libertarian feels-b4-realz) The patient in the form of the American Body-Politic is hemorrhaging, and we're losing the Republic, if we haven't already, we need triage. Worrying about that is like bickering about what kind of stitches to use while the victim bleeds out onto the pavement. Put a goddamn bandage on first.  Especially when there's not even a suture kit nearby.

If the morality police does come knocking, use the money you should have from the saner fiscal policy to circle the wagons, BitTorrent and TOR to get your porn, and their lax gun laws to shoot back at them.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 02:08:41 PM »
So what's fake about them, besides the fact they don't meet your own approval?

Yeah, 'cause marriage didn't really having a specific meaning until I dreamed up my crazy hetero rule, and retroactively worked into virtually every culture, since the dawn of time.
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TommyGunn

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 07:57:32 PM »
People who don't support the freedom of gays to marry will also lose their gun rights in the long run. Seems fair to me.
Just how are the two supposed to be connected?
Either may happen without the other ... or both ... or neither.
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Fitz

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 08:16:36 PM »
Just how are the two supposed to be connected?
Either may happen without the other ... or both ... or neither.

Because it will continue to be an issue that costs the GOP elections
Fitz

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Scout26

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 11:09:52 PM »
And stop playing the left's game.

Left -"We want gay marriage!!"   Conservative- "We don't care about that issue."

Left - "We want SJW issue dejure."  Conservative - "We don't care about your feelz."


Pick 3-4 issues and hammer them.  Ignore the other made up ones. 

Balanced Budget
Tax Reduction
Regulation Reduction
Job Growth

Ignore the rest.  Or answer, "I support the party platform."  End. Period. Full Stop.


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TommyGunn

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 11:21:11 PM »
Because it will continue to be an issue that costs the GOP elections

What will cost the GOP elections is the lack of true conservative candidates.

Or are republicans not allowed to be conservative on social issues ...just economic ones? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :facepalm:
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Regolith

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2014, 02:26:40 AM »
Yeah, 'cause marriage didn't really having a specific meaning until I dreamed up my crazy hetero rule, and retroactively worked into virtually every culture, since the dawn of time.

So...basically, they don't meet your own approval. Gotcha.  ;/

Seriously, what skin is off your back if they call it marriage? Absolutely nothing, is what. It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg, so there isn't really any reason for you to worry about it, aside from being a busybody.
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Fitz

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2014, 02:57:10 AM »
What will cost the GOP elections is the lack of true conservative candidates.

Or are republicans not allowed to be conservative on social issues ...just economic ones? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :facepalm:

Keep believing what you want. There's plenty of conservative candidates. Seems they don't make it past primaries in a lot of elections
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brimic

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2014, 08:42:59 AM »
Because it will continue to be an issue that costs the GOP elections
No.
Its a red herring issue at best.
There are many states that have passed gay marriage bans by popular vote or referendum, these bans tend to be wildly poipular at state levels. The only major pushback is coming from appointed activist federal judges.

Quote
Pick 3-4 issues and hammer them.  Ignore the other made up ones. 

Balanced Budget
Tax Reduction
Regulation Reduction
Job Growth

Ignore the rest.  Or answer, "I support the party platform."  End. Period. Full Stop.

That, right there.
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makattak

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2014, 08:48:43 AM »
So...basically, they don't meet your own approval. Gotcha.  ;/

Seriously, what skin is off your back if they call it marriage? Absolutely nothing, is what. It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg, so there isn't really any reason for you to worry about it, aside from being a busybody.

Ah, nice strawman. It's not like we've hashed out these issues in the past. It's clearly just bigotry on the part of those of us who oppose government recognition of homosexual relationships because you've never heard any other argument.

As I have said before (but not as succinctly) I support government recognition of marriage. A marriage represents the union of a male and a female for the formation of a stable family unit. For that reason we limit government recognition to that basic unit for the encouragement of stable families for the continued existence of our Republic.

Any other coupling does not have (1) the long history of creating a stable family situation (the studies on alternative family structures are mixed, at best) nor (2) does any other relationship provide such a clear distinction to limit the government recognition.

Recognizing homosexual relationships in the place of marriage cannot (logically) stop there. IF marriage is not between a man and a woman and just any two people who "love" each other (if you'll note, in the eyes of the state, they should not care whether you "love" your spouse or not) then why does the definition of marriage have to stop at two people? Logically, if the complementary of the the sexes has been discarded, the justification for two is gone.

It also removes the logical justification for preventing consanguineous marriage. In fact, it demands it. (Why can't a brother and sister get married- the danger to the children. What about two sisters? Err... ok, I guess they can get married. Now, by equal protection, we can no longer, logically, prevent a brother and a sister. Unless, of course, they just don't meet your approval.)

Further, if, as many supporters of government benefits for homosexual relationships will retort when told that marriage is about family and children, what about infertile couples!!!??11?$?!@?

The government intruding on people's lives to ascertain if they are infertile or not is an unacceptable breach of their privacy. Of course as we've thrown privacy out the window, go ahead and limit marriage to only fertile couples. I'd prefer not stigmatize the infertile further and go on a witch hunt after them, but have at it.

Now, some supporters of government benefits for homosexual relationships are fully logically consistent. (Micro being one of these, as we've hashed these arguments out a few times.)

But government benefits for homosexual relationships completely undermines any limitations on the definition of the word "marriage".

As for this part:

Seriously, what skin is off your back if they call it marriage? Absolutely nothing, is what. It neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg, so there isn't really any reason for you to worry about it, aside from being a busybody.


The state has already shown that it has no interest in banning gay marriage as it has in polygamous marriages. Gay people can call themselves married in every single state in the union and no jackbooted thugs will break down their door and drag them off to jail. Polygamous marriages do not have that same assurance. Some are tolerated, but not all.)

To anticipate the next question, "but how does government recognition of homosexual relationships as "marriage" affect your marriage?"

It doesn't. My marriage is unaffected by most societal problems. My marriage is also unaffected by high marginal tax rates on high income earners. I'm still opposed to those tax rates. My marriage is also unaffected by allowing consanguineous marriages. I'm still opposed to them. My marriage is also unaffected by the wholesale slaughter of the unborn. I'm still opposed to it.

My opposition to homosexual marriage is not because there are immediate personal effects (although with the current witch hunts and lawsuits, there will very likely be personal costs not far down the road.) My opposition is that it is detrimental to society to further erode the foundation of the family.

In that vein, "gay marriage" isn't really the problem. It is but a symptom and a continuation of the degradation of the family that began over half a century ago with the liberalization of divorce laws.

As fistful has already pointed out, it is a matter of putting emotions ahead of logic or, as he put it "feels b4 realz". As we continue to put emotions ahead of logic, we will continue on the path to the demise of this once-great Republic.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:24:26 AM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

KD5NRH

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2014, 09:58:56 AM »
While I'm certainly in the social libertarian camp, the ability of the hard-right to actually DO ANYTHING about what they perceive as "immorality" is rather limited, if not completely absent in a society that otherwise has freedom of movement and association.

This, but the left has gotten most people to the point where they see refusal to fund or otherwise support a behavior as an outright crusade against it.

MillCreek

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2014, 10:09:36 AM »
What with many of the modern ills of society and the demise of the family being laid at the feet of divorce, abortion and gay marriage, it would be interesting if there was actual non-biased sociological data supporting these contentions.  I wonder if there is any and I have not researched this.  I certainly respect that some people have philosophical, moral or religious beliefs against any or all of these three things, but some of these arguments against it seem to be 'feelz b4 realz', unless of course there is a data consensus supporting these arguments.  
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Ron

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2014, 10:41:38 AM »
As a Christian the only criteria I hold for politicians are their economic positions and their stance on life.

In other words they must be pro economic liberty/anti statist and pro life/anti abortion.

None of the other social issues really are anything we should be using the power of the state to try and enforce.

Like fistful I find the whole redefining of marriage by government fiat an exercise in Orwellian government programming. But that genie is out of the bottle and it is a waste of time battling on that front.

Cultural Christianity imposed by the state is just about dead in this country and I for one will not miss it in its passing. Christ never intended for his Kingdom to be imposed on others using the coercion of the state.       
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

KD5NRH

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2014, 10:48:35 AM »
Cultural Christianity imposed by the state is just about dead in this country and I for one will not miss it in its passing. Christ never intended for his Kingdom to be imposed on others using the coercion of the state.

There is no morality in any forced action.  No one can claim charity when the "giving" was done at gunpoint, nor can one claim virtue in avoiding bad behavior solely to escape Earthly consequences.

TommyGunn

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 12:09:49 PM »
Quote from: TommyGunn
What will cost the GOP elections is the lack of true conservative candidates.
Or are republicans not allowed to be conservative on social issues ...just economic ones? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Keep believing what you want. There's plenty of conservative candidates. Seems they don't make it past primaries in a lot of elections

Really?  Where? ???
The great bulk of the repukeagain party has taken a decided dodge to the "statist/left" recently.  Even Bushie the Younger was no conservative.
We must live on different planets. [tinfoil]
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Fitz

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Re: Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2014, 12:25:02 PM »

Keep believing what you want. There's plenty of conservative candidates. Seems they don't make it past primaries in a lot of elections


Really?  Where? ???
The great bulk of the repukeagain party has taken a decided dodge to the "statist/left" recently.  Even Bushie the Younger was no conservative.
We must live on different planets. [tinfoil]



You're either delusional, or deliberately being obtuse. I'm not sure which, but its expected behavior
Fitz

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charby

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Re: Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2014, 01:37:58 PM »


You're either delusional, or deliberately being obtuse. I'm not sure which, but its expected behavior

He just needs to look at who didn't win primaries in multiple states in the last couple elections cycles.

For example the last republican governor primary in Iowa, for 2012. 1 moderate social/fiscal conservative (Branstad), 1 social con/fiscal con (Roberts) and uber social/fiscal con (VanderPlaats). Guess who won by a landslide in the primary, it wasn't the social cons.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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makattak

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2014, 02:40:03 PM »
He just needs to look at who didn't win primaries in multiple states in the last couple elections cycles.

For example the last republican governor primary in Iowa, for 2012. 1 moderate social/fiscal conservative (Branstad), 1 social con/fiscal con (Roberts) and uber social/fiscal con (VanderPlaats). Guess who won by a landslide in the primary, it wasn't the social cons.

I'm not saying you point is not valid, but your example is not the best without numbers. Your point is skewed by the fact that the social conservatives had two candidates splitting their vote while the moderates have a clear choice.

(Also, I don't disagree with Fitz that the candidates are not there. There are plenty of social conservative candidates. Unfortunately, most are not the best advocates for their positions at least partly due to the fact that most people who deeply care about their family are unlikely to risk putting them through what a political campaign has the potential to do to them.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

charby

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Re: TEA Party losses
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2014, 05:01:41 PM »
I'm not saying you point is not valid, but your example is not the best without numbers. Your point is skewed by the fact that the social conservatives had two candidates splitting their vote while the moderates have a clear choice.

(Also, I don't disagree with Fitz that the candidates are not there. There are plenty of social conservative candidates. Unfortunately, most are not the best advocates for their positions at least partly due to the fact that most people who deeply care about their family are unlikely to risk putting them through what a political campaign has the potential to do to them.)

Terry Branstad 114,450 50.3%

Bob Vander Plaats 93,058 40.9%

Rod Roberts 19,896 8.8%

Terry was a 4 term governor that had been out of office for 12 years, he didn't seek re-election in 1998. I think the only reason he ran for gov again is to keep Vander Plaats from winning the primary and then losing in the general election to the nitwit (democrat) who was in office seeking re-election. Bob is not a very popular person except with the extreme far right, he has the Dutch Reform vote locked up. Dutch Reform is the biggest religion of the religious right in Iowa, followed pretty close by the Pentecostals and E-free folks.
Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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